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If I have a chance to miss a perfectly clear shot when I'm supposed to be a crack marksman, why do I not have a chance to trip and fall on perfectly level ground? Again, why one but not the other? Specifically since people tripping over their feet happens in real life and, yes, even in video games. Why is it OK to fumble a shot but not a step? Why is it OK to fumble a shot but not a jump? Why is it OK for me to miss a clear shot at an immobile target standing in an empty field, but it's not OK for me to accidentally emerge from a teleport inside-out?|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Right, so you're saying that because I think it's ok for attacks to occasionally fail to do their fixed amount of damage to an object, therefore I want my character to also have a chance to have a stroke? Because those two things are exactly the same, aren't they?
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Why overfocus on missing, yet ignore all the other fumbles we could, and often SHOULD be making, such as weapons jamming, dud explosives, bungled spells, tripping over our own feet and so forth? Is it because stupid misses are already in the game but tripping over objects lying on the ground isn't? How would you feel if each time you stepped over a street curb, you had a 5% chance to fall down? How about each time you jumped, you had a 5% chance to land on your butt instead of on your back? How about each time you swung a sword, you had a 5% chance of the sword flying out of your hands and over the edge of the rooftop?
Because all of the above are just as likely as a super-powered, computer-assisted, magically-enchanted master sharpshooter aiming his rifle at the ground and missing. Yes, it could happen. Should it? What does it add?
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| This is called "logic" you say? |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Duuude! If you quote me, try to put a link to the post you took that from. I have no idea what I actually meant when I said that |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Oh, and you made the "made sense" argument:
... in this game? Really? |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I like the idea of Build-Up and Aim ignoring the 5% chance to miss. I can't count how many times I did a big gathering of energy to plow down the boss with my most powerful move and... Missed. I never know whether to laugh or cry.
It's like 5 episodes of Goku chargin' his lazer and then MISSING.
When I miss stationary items it just reinforces the old saying "can't hit the broad side of a barn"
then again maybe the desk I'm trying to destroy is just really swift and maneuverable so I sometimes miss it.
The 5% miss chance represents the random chance that a breeze deflected your arrow, or your perfectly aimed sword-blow was deflected by the spike on the pauldron because the target turned ever so slightly at the wrong time, or your laser beam eyes hit a flaw in the tanker's ice armor just right, reflecting out instead of in.
In other words, it represents the tiny shred of reality that still remains in the game. If you look at real fights conducted by real people, you will realize that:
- Something like 90% or more of bullets fired by cops miss their targets -- even more so in war where most machine gun fire is suppressive: they shoot millions of rounds resulting in only thousands of casualties. And most of the casualties are not from gunfire these days.
- Most attacks in (evenly matched) fencing matches are parried or dodged.
- Most punches and kicks in (evenly matched) martial arts contests are dodged or parried.
In blood sports like boxing they tend to get a higher percentage of hits in (mostly body blows that the fighters seem to ignore), but there's still a lot of ducking and weaving. This style of fighting seems to have been developed to heap punishment on the participants. If the boxers weren't getting hit the fans would be disappointed.
My guess is that when players feel that they're missing a lot it's not really due to the forced 5% chance, but because their accuracy is debuffed or their targets have extra high defense. You should monitor your last hit chance in the combat attributes monitor, as well as your to-hit bonus. It's very informative. The latter stat turns red when you're debuffed, so it's very easy to notice.
That can help you know when you should pop a yellow, or back out if your to-hit is getting hammered by things like Darkest Night from Nerva demons.
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that would be funny a bit but not many people share my morbid sense of humor and probably would spaz out if someone missed and healed the enemy instead or blew the team up. very interesting idea imo. That would be nice to see.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
You know? I'd actually like it if the game had critical misses (i.e. you critical miss with your fireball and blow up yourself and allies instead; you aim a transference that, instead, heals the enemy). Would make for a more spicy game.
Incidentally, I think it'd be cool if *everyone* got critical hits (Stalkers, Scrappers, Corruptors, Controllers and VEATs just have another avenue of crits). Maybe even a *critical* critical hit...kind of like how Stalkers have a small chance of double AS, maybe a small chance to deliver a Deathblow despite enemy HP remaining.  |
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
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Originally Posted by Rodion
The 5% miss chance represents the random chance that a breeze deflected your arrow, or your perfectly aimed sword-blow was deflected by the spike on the pauldron because the target turned ever so slightly at the wrong time, or your laser beam eyes hit a flaw in the tanker's ice armor just right, reflecting out instead of in.
In other words, it represents the tiny shred of reality that still remains in the game. If you look at real fights conducted by real people, you will realize that:
In blood sports like boxing they tend to get a higher percentage of hits in (mostly body blows that the fighters seem to ignore), but there's still a lot of ducking and weaving. This style of fighting seems to have been developed to heap punishment on the participants. If the boxers weren't getting hit the fans would be disappointed. My guess is that when players feel that they're missing a lot it's not really due to the forced 5% chance, but because their accuracy is debuffed or their targets have extra high defense. You should monitor your last hit chance in the combat attributes monitor, as well as your to-hit bonus. It's very informative. The latter stat turns red when you're debuffed, so it's very easy to notice. That can help you know when you should pop a yellow, or back out if your to-hit is getting hammered by things like Darkest Night from Nerva demons. |
it is bit annoying to see constanst 95% and a 93% here and there chance to hit and miss four times in a row while the the mob have 5% chance to hit but constantly roll low anyways. Seen this happen more than a few time for it to be an anomaly especially wit hthe critter's low rolls. hell, when a player get below 60% to hit, good luck and welcome to whiff city. somethign strange going on there.
-Female Player-
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
to me when i read the OP it looked like they were talking about the streakbreaker
the streakbreaker is whats forcing a miss every so often regardless of acc, def, tohit, anything
honestly i hate the streakbreaker as well, cause it makes def based toons near useless in some places like the mass ambush in cuda sf
i dont mind having the 5% chance to miss or the enemies 5% chance to hit for min/max type of deal because it would be too much to have all powers be autohit or have powers that never hit, but the streakbreaker kind of nullifies this whole thing, why bother having acc or tohit if your forced to be hit or forced to miss every so many attacks, if you knew you would miss on your 5th attack every time, then just use a really low cost/power attack then. since the streakbreaker forces a miss or hit every so often, if you keep track of how many attacks you used then you could almost break the system always hitting with your hard hitters and using your weaker powers to "skip" by the streakbreaker
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While this is all true it is totally irrelevant to the discussion. You are trying to make an argument for real life to supersede fantasy in a super hero game. Agree or disagree with the 5% rule there is no real life precedent that adequately justifies how the fireball I have conjured out of thin air behaves. Well that's not entirely true, but it doesn't have anything to do with real world combat mechanics.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
The 5% miss chance represents the random chance that a breeze deflected your arrow, or your perfectly aimed sword-blow was deflected by the spike on the pauldron because the target turned ever so slightly at the wrong time, or your laser beam eyes hit a flaw in the tanker's ice armor just right, reflecting out instead of in.
In other words, it represents the tiny shred of reality that still remains in the game. If you look at real fights conducted by real people, you will realize that:
In blood sports like boxing they tend to get a higher percentage of hits in (mostly body blows that the fighters seem to ignore), but there's still a lot of ducking and weaving. This style of fighting seems to have been developed to heap punishment on the participants. If the boxers weren't getting hit the fans would be disappointed. |
Yeah, i don't mind missing when i'm launching a bunch of attacks at a bunch of enemies, and i'm surrounded by explosions and allies and foes and all sorts of stuff and it's chaos and all that...
But if i'm holding still, take the time to build up, aim, and fire a snipe at a stationary target... and i MISS... That cheezes me off! I think the Devs should look at removing or reducing the 5% chance for certain situations. Even if it means lowering your defense because you're distracted/focused or whatever to balance it out.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Or lazer eyes! Every time I miss with this skill I wonder why my scrapper was looking over at the wall instead of at the enemy.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I'd still love some attacks, like Assassins Strike and Sniper rifle to ignore that 5% chance, though. So you can have 'Aimed' attacks that CAN have 100% chance of hitting. I know that'd make Snipe a bit more popular than it is at the moment (I still take it, mind, but it seems to get a lot of hate in the Powers forums)
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Um.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
to me when i read the OP it looked like they were talking about the streakbreaker
the streakbreaker is whats forcing a miss every so often regardless of acc, def, tohit, anything |
No.
No it doesn't.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
To look at it from another angle, part of the problem is that most characters by the 20s have a 95% chance to hit the enemies they routinely fight. Therefore we spend most of our time hitting up against this invisible barrier of 95%.
With the way that enhancements work now, there is no reason to not slot for accuracy. You can cap any attack out on its primary function (damage or mez) with 3 slots, and then have three to spare, with typically one of them going to accuracy.
Add ins IOs, and it gets better. Pretty much any character I make these days has +20% acc or so global bonuses even if Im shooting for something else, like recvharge or Defence bonuses, AND over 50% native acc in each attack due to the frankenslotting effect.
So all characters, 100% of my playtime, are meant to be very accurate and yet miss vault doors 1 in 20 times.
Has anyone ever given up accuracy in their slotting and felt that they got something worthwhile in return? If so, how?
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What if strikes and snipes had 100% hit if the user doesn't have ANY AGGRO....|
Originally Posted by TheShattered
I have to agree with Techbot in that there are some attacks which really should have 100% hit chance such as Sniper attacks and Assassin attacks. Dodge is perfectly okay as well as anything else, but when my AR Blaster 'misses' with Sniper Rifle, i can only wonder "Where you actually aiming the entire time you were looking through the scope?" Same goes for Assassin attacks.
A compromise i think, would be to have Sniper/Assassin attacks at about 98% Accuracy when fully buffed/enhanced etc. After all, they are supposed to be accurate attacks and seems rather odd that they would have the same accuracy as most other attacks. |
Which means if you have aggro and placate one target, you still have a chance to miss because 2 others see you and you're "stressed" because you're under fire.
However, if you have the time to totally focus without any retaliation.... why would anyone miss a target standing still.
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So you should be able to hit a target that is in the middle of combat, jumping around and trying to avoid attacks form another player 100% of the time because nothing is attacking you?
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Originally Posted by 5th_Player
What if strikes and snipes had 100% hit if the user doesn't have ANY AGGRO....
Which means if you have aggro and placate one target, you still have a chance to miss because 2 others see you and you're "stressed" because you're under fire. However, if you have the time to totally focus without any retaliation.... why would anyone miss a target standing still. |
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Only on the first attempt.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So you should be able to hit a target that is in the middle of combat, jumping around and trying to avoid attacks form another player 100% of the time because nothing is attacking you?
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Make it more of a flag for combat.
Which exists, otherwise mobs wouldn't know to attack you until they see you, and they wouldn't know when to return to patrolling status after you die to a patrol ambush.
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Sure. It makes as much sense as the enemies' projectiles chasing me across a map through walls and other barriers when I run past them and they take potshots at me.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So you should be able to hit a target that is in the middle of combat, jumping around and trying to avoid attacks form another player 100% of the time because nothing is attacking you?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I hate the miss rate in this game and whine about it a lot. BUT I would whine less if I could have a neat missing animation when I missed. Like a classic 'ole Whiffarooni, stumbling over and spinning around, maybe even rolling an ankle. If it's real bad I fall down. But, nope. All I get is ...MISS...
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Hell, they could at LEAST give us a damn badge for so many effin' Streakbreakers.
is it fair to compare this thread to anyone of Ultimo's end problem threads?