Epic Pool Parity

A few times I've heard that Patron Pools are worse than Ancillary Pools. Not due to theme (which opens up a different argument) but actual strength. I'm curious about the reasoning. Well, Primal Forces is sort of Fitness 2.0 so that probably affects views by default. Still, I'm curious about the reasoning overall.

Not sure of the attitude towards them post-fifth-power additions, but I know some of the complaints dealt with some of the powers - like all of them having a short lived, long recharge pet (except masterminds,) or - for instance - Stalker snipes being good pretty much just for set muling (with their eight second animation time, mostly interruptable, they're useless... and this coming from someone who otherwise *likes* snipes.)

Some of the complaints are from when we were locked into them. They were supposed to be more powerful to compensate - they weren't. Some of the complaints are from still having to unlock them, as opposed to APPs (yes, you still have to do the patron arcs.) Some of the complaints are just from having to do patron arcs and not having them nicely generic themed (Fire mastery, Cold mastery, etc. as opposed to "Mako's Fun Pack.")

Numbers-wise... someone else will have to tell you. Some powers there just is no equal to (and Castle IIRC tends not to like them much) - Body mastery, for instance, with the targeting drone or whatever it's called.

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I've always been a bit wary of this comparison. I mean most Scrapper ones aren't great at all, Brute ones are fairly good. Controller ones are fantastic. Domi ones are fairly good. MM ones are fairly rubbish.

So swings and roundabouts mostly IMO. There are stinkers both sides and decent choices both sides.*

The 5th Power addition did a bit to mix it up and remedy some of the issues alright.


Except in the case of Masterminds where they pretty much still suck given a Masterminds role and AT modifiers.

It's an excellent conversation to be having! But I have a feeling there'll be a lot more to say once Issue 18 hits open beta.

I read this thread title as "Epic Pool Party"

Thought someone was talking about a bash they threw over the weekend....then I saw the "I" in the word

Huh. Besides the hero mez protection click for the psychic controller app and the oft-mentioned physical perfection power, I've seen the patrons pools as overall much better than the heroes' options. They get AoE damage attacks easily, good shields, AoE immobilizes, (compare to the many hero ST immobilizes) and some darned fine utility/boost powers.

(See: darkest night, waterspouts, soul drain, shadow meld,power surge, etc.)

I'm actually quite happy with most of them on both sides but think a bit more variety would be nice.

I would like a second DEF based pool for my squishies on redside despite Scorp Shield being pleasantly inconspicuous compared to poo armor and frozen armor.

Some thematic variety would be nice too; I would love a fire/fire/pyre Dom. That's definitely gonna cross over to blueside if it opens up the fire PP

I also wish there was more parity between the Brute and Scrapper *PPs. I'd love to have Physical Perfection for my /Dark Brute. I'd also love to have an AOE immobilize or AOE taunt for my /SR scrapper so entire spawns don't run off when they drop below half health. It also makes me glad that I made my Elec a Brute and not a Scrapper because the entire spawn running off when they get their endurance bar drained would just drive me crazy on a Scrapper.

Most of all though, it is the redraw that annoys me the most about *PPs and PPs in general and that's something that isn't particularly restricted to any one side.

I'm hoping that when Scrappers can go redside and grab PPPs, that they're done better than their current APPs.

Their current APPs, for the most part suck (imo). Immobilzes are a waste for my scrappers, a long range attacks is usually good for concepts, as is the aoe blasts.

Holds, usually a waste, and of the ones we get, not visually impressive at all.

I'd rather have a "5% Resist to all Fire Shield" to throw on team members than the single target immobilize. :/

I would love APP ally buffs! So much!

That said, I don't get some of the outlooks in this thread. Here's how I see it:

• Blaster: Rise of the Phoenix and Repulsion Bomb both improve characters a great deal, and LRM is lots of fun (plus Surveillance is rather handy). At least 3 good sets.
• Controller: Excellent damage all around, and forces you to choose (if going for effectiveness) between RotP, status protection, and the all-around high-powered Earth set. Extremely desirable sets, perhaps even too much so.
• Defender:The Dark set is incredibly powerful, making you virtually unstoppable (especially with certain main sets) and then sticking in a self-rez for some actual immortality. The Psi set is a wet dream for people who like dirt-cheap purple set bonuses. The other sets have handy tools; Elec might be nice if you want melee damage and need better endurance management.
• Scrapper: Body Mastery gives you your choice of endurance management, massive accuracy, health + endurance, ranged energy damage + def debuff, and targeted AoE energy damage + knockdown. It is incredible. The other sets are a bit meh unless you want them for style or ranged damage, but they're not bad at those things.
• Tanker: The control can be a little handy, otherwise they get a similar analysis to Scrappers. Tanks probably don't need their APP's as much because they can use regular pools to directly boost their main job (taking hits), but their APP's do actually advance that well if used properly.

• Brute: Gloom is excellent. Everything else is weak debuff, control, or ranged damage, all insufficient to drastically change your life.
• Corrupter: A lot of weak controls (like some main sets already have) and a mixed bag of other effects. Scorpion Shield is rather nice for some builds. These might have the potential to be life-changing; unfortunately, this is also one of the most egregious areas of comparison. Would you rather have Soul Drain every 4 minutes with 1.7/6.8 base ToHit/Dam per target, or once every 2 minutes with 2/8? Would you rather get 20% resist from Dark Embrace or 27%? This is a place where direct comparison is possible, and where Villains get outright screwed. (Yes, their armors appear to be balanced against Blaster APPs rather than Defenders, but Blaster APPs have excellent non-armor toys; indeed, I don't usually even take their armors.)
• Dominator: Some armors (again, nerfed) and some light debuff, with some sets able to self-buff (again, nerfed). More damage, as if they need it--many (most?) Doms would lose damage by using PPP attacks, since their own attack chains are so brutal.
• Mastermind: KO blow does some real damage, but these sets are mostly defenses and holds. At least they got Defender defenses. Of course, as noted, these sets neither drastically improve your pets nor make the MM itself into a good damage-dealer.
• Stalker: Leviathan gives good mitigation and pets are a nice distraction (especially as compared to Brutes), but this is also another area of direct insult. Take the large spikes of ranged+aoe damage a Scrapper gets at these levels and halve it, and you're still being too charitable (you can Crit with a Fire Blast, you can't Stealth Strike with a Mace Blast). Also, the snipes are terrible as powers and only mildly useful as set mules.
• Soldiers: See Brutes. I must admit, Gloom and Dark Oblit both markedly improved my Crab, and Shatter was a bit useful on my Widow and my roommate's Bane.

1. APPs are a bit overpowered and tend to fill most weaknesses of a character, often resulting in a drastic change in play style and enormous power boost. PPPs are nice little bonuses for their users that tend to subtly enhance existing tactics.
2. Any direct comparison attempt between the two is insulting (Scrapper ranged vs. Stalker ranged, Defender armor/buff vs. Corruptor armor/buff).

I just want sharks for my tank.

I can't comment on some AT's, since I only have a small stable of toons high enough. But I will say this about the pools and powers I know -

BLUESIDE:
) Focused Accuracy for scrappers - very useful. Though, admittedly a tray full of yellows will do the same job.
) Physical Perfection - again very useful, though IOs can fill the same job.
) Rise of the Phoenix for blasters - an AOE attack rez for (what I consider) a suicidal AT? Yes please!!
) Bonfire and Char for blasters - panic buttons for when things go really wrong, these are very handy.

REDSIDE:
) the whole of GW's pool for Masterminds - ...very meh. I didn't have many attacks by the time I reached the 40s so I picked up a couple here and have to say, I'm not impressed. I can see the armour being handy for tankerminds, though.
) Scirocco's pool for Brutes - ohh, hells yes. Electric Fences allows me to get the most out of Burn without everyone running away! So much fun. And some extra damage and slight endurance help from the other powers.

...I guess what I'm trying to say is - while I may not have the most informed opinion here - I've seen pretty much the same as Carnifax. MM's are the only ones who can really complain.

I think blasters get screwed over more than anyone else. The additional hold can be helpful and snow storm is nice, but what most blasters really need is def/res imo. I never understood why the AT with the least amount of contro/def/res/debuff/buff is given the smallest buff numbers for defense and resistance powers.

And oddly enough they get the smallest benefit from powers like assault also.