Epic Pool Parity
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-07-01 22:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I can't speak for other AT's but looking at corrupt ors and defenders, the APPs win by a landslide. If I could take the APPs on a corr I'd respec within seconds of it going live. If I had to take a PPP on my defender I'd be pissed.
However, looking at the balance between the two AT's as a whole they're balanced because of it. The notable mitigation that defenders can get from their APPs keeps their edge in mitigation as substantial as the corrupter's damage advantage.
The most important thing to me is that when I'm looking at mids trying to decide whether I should make an X/Y def or Y/X corr, i'm always stuck there for an hour going "If corrupters just had Z power it would be an easy choice." Hard choice mean good job Team Castle!
Quote:
Eh?|
Originally Posted by m3lon
I can't speak for other AT's but looking at corrupt ors and defenders, the APPs win by a landslide. If I could take the APPs on a corr I'd respec within seconds of it going live. If I had to take a PPP on my defender I'd be pissed.
However, looking at the balance between the two AT's as a whole they're balanced because of it. The notable mitigation that defenders can get from their APPs keeps their edge in mitigation as substantial as the corrupter's damage advantage. The most important thing to me is that when I'm looking at mids trying to decide whether I should make an X/Y def or Y/X corr, i'm always stuck there for an hour going "If corrupters just had Z power it would be an easy choice." Hard choice mean good job Team Castle! |
Defender pool, electric:
ST immobilize, tiny aoE melee, armor, ST hold, PBAoE drain+end
vs.
Corruptor, mu:
PBAoE drain+end, armor, -end cost,ST hold, boss pet (Has heal, summons pet, has electric attacks)
...............................
Defender pool, dark:
PBAoE stun toggle, PBAoE +end, armor, rez, PBAoE +dam
vs.
Corruptor, soul:
PBAoE +dam, armor, power boost, hold, boss pet (Highly mez resistant psy boss with heavy psy damage)
...............................
I'm not seeing the crudiness of corruptor pools, honestly. Electric/mu would be even, as would dark/soul...or so you'd think. But corruptors get big powers faster, and with AoE immobilizes as well. The pets aren't permanent, but they're plenty potent. Obviously the other pools are more disimilar, but I'd take corruptor pools easily.
Quote:
I'm a huge fan of Oppressive Gloom, Force of Nature, and Mass Hypnosis and I generally loathe pet powers and don't see the AoE immobs as particularly useful; so already that puts me heavily in favor of the defender secondaries.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Eh?
Defender pool, electric: ST immobilize, tiny aoE melee, armor, hold, PBAoE drain+end vs. Corruptor, mu: PBAoE drain+end, armor, -end cost, AoE immobilize, boss pet (Has heal, summons pet, has electric attacks) ............................... Defender pool, dark: PBAoE stun toggle, PBAoE +end, armor, rez, PBAoE +dam vs. Corruptor, soul: PBAoE +dam, armor, power boost, hold, boss pet (Highly mez resistant psy boss with heavy psy damage) ............................... I'm not seeing the crudiness of corruptor pools, honestly. Electric/mu would be even, as would dark/soul...or so you'd think. But corruptors get big powers faster, and with AoE immobilizes as well. The pets aren't permanent, but they're plenty potent. Obviously the other pools are more disimilar, but I'd take corruptor pools easily. |
The defender's holds have half the recharge time of the corrupter holds and last longer, with generally faster animations.
The defender's shields put up better numbers.
Oppressive Gloom and Mass Hypnosis add a sick amount of control that will stop more damage than an AoE immob.
Admittedly the defender attacks are terrible, and the corrupter's +def shield does make my eyes a little bit green. However the defender power have a great amount of variety that can bolster your build quite well (such as getting the option of a self rez or god mode or being able to stack aoe stuns). I'm not going call the PPPs crud, but I will call the APP amazingly powerful, pal.
Hrm. I'll go back and edit, I looked at the wrong pool; corrs get a hold in mu, not immobilize. Their AoE immobilize comes in mace/leviathan.
As to AoE immobilizes: if you have an AoE toggle debuff, a placed pathch debuff, a rain power, or like things to stay in groups for AoE's, large groups immobilizes are your friend, or at least I really like them. I do a ot of exemplaring, so having armor asap seems to trump extra percentages, at least in my case. The holds on corrs are indeed shorter, but thankfully they can usuallt deal with a problem before it comes unheld.
Quote:
Wasn't even thinking Force Multiplier. I was thinking purely on concept.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Agreed. As I see it, Scrappers aren't missing ranged attacks or mez effects that need be rounded out by their APPs (which was the original concept behind them, to "round out" your capabilities"); they're missing buffs and debuffs that would allow them to get some moderate in team force multiplication going on. Rather than getting some crappy mez effects and worthless range ST attacks, I'd rather that Scrappers got some team buffs and/or heals (though I'd hope the devs would actually learn from the mistakes of the current melee APPs and forgo using a design that makes APPs useless for some ATs and a godsend for others that sends their effectiveness through the roof).
|
Telekinesis APP for Scrappers
Lift
Telekinesis
Force Shield (Single Target Ally Buff - 5% Defense to All)
Ta da! Three powers (ranged attack, hold, bubble ally) and my Scrapper just started to feel like a melee Telekinetic!
And style them up! Soul Storm is the best looking hold in the game!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Eh?
Defender pool, electric: ST immobilize, tiny aoE melee, armor, ST hold, PBAoE drain+end vs. Corruptor, mu: PBAoE drain+end, armor, -end cost,ST hold, boss pet (Has heal, summons pet, has electric attacks) ............................... Defender pool, dark: PBAoE stun toggle, PBAoE +end, armor, rez, PBAoE +dam vs. Corruptor, soul: PBAoE +dam, armor, power boost, hold, boss pet (Highly mez resistant psy boss with heavy psy damage) ............................... I'm not seeing the crudiness of corruptor pools, honestly. Electric/mu would be even, as would dark/soul...or so you'd think. But corruptors get big powers faster, and with AoE immobilizes as well. The pets aren't permanent, but they're plenty potent. Obviously the other pools are more disimilar, but I'd take corruptor pools easily. |
Just a FYI: the corr's Mu Adept does not have the ally heal, only the dom's Mu Guardian does (touch of the storm, 217 unslotted). Funny though that all 3 mu pets can be slotted for heals but only dom's have access to it.
Quote:
...wait.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
I can't remember where the interview was, but according to War Witch, they changed that.
Now, everybody gets APPs at level 41, and anyone who's done their Patron Arc (available at level 40+ to Villain and Rogue characters) gets access to PPPs, regardless of their current faction. |
Does this mean that I can roll a scrapper to redside, grovel my way through the unlock arc, get gloom, and respec into a build with gloom, physical perfection, and conserve power all at once?
Becuz if so, I got's some rebuilds to work up....
Even more critically, does this give brutes access to Body Mastery at 41? Because that rocks socks, if true.
Quote:
Choosing Defender Elec for comparison seems unfair to me because (in my opinion) it is their weakest APP.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Defender pool, electric:
ST immobilize, tiny aoE melee, armor, ST hold, PBAoE drain+end vs. Corruptor, mu: PBAoE drain+end, armor, -end cost,ST hold, boss pet (Has heal, summons pet, has electric attacks) ............................... Defender pool, dark: PBAoE stun toggle, PBAoE +end, armor, rez, PBAoE +dam vs. Corruptor, soul: PBAoE +dam, armor, power boost, hold, boss pet (Highly mez resistant psy boss with heavy psy damage) ............................... I'm not seeing the crudiness of corruptor pools, honestly. Electric/mu would be even, as would dark/soul...or so you'd think. But corruptors get big powers faster, and with AoE immobilizes as well. The pets aren't permanent, but they're plenty potent. Obviously the other pools are more disimilar, but I'd take corruptor pools easily. |
Defender dark gets 25% better results from Soul Drain and has double the up time on it, 25% better results from its armor (at the cost of 3 levels, which means you still get it for Numina, Eden, and Sewers), an excellent control if they already have a stun (which many do), and an endurance boost (which some builds can make good use out of). Corruptors can use their hold for stacking if they already have one (a less common situation), they get kicked in the teeth on Soul Drain (though the early spot is nice), and I find Power Boost to be limited in use at best.
There is a lot of hate for both PPP pets and Soul Transfer; personally, while I do find the pets useful, I also find Soul Transfer to be extremely powerful. I think it's a deserving Tier 9 power in its home set, so getting it at full strength in an APP is very impressive. (While I don't advance it as an argument because I know there are few who agree with me, I tend to regard Soul Transfer by itself as far stronger than any PPP.)
The problem isn't APP VS PPP, it's just that certain APP or PPP sucks and players will mainly stay with the 2 "best" epic pools within their Archetype.
Also, while percentage-buff-wise, they might get a smaller benefit from a power like Assault, you have to see what that does to their actual damage.
Blaster Lightning Bolt:
102.6 Energy Damage at level 50.
Blaster Assault:
10.5% Buff
Blaster Lightning Bolt + Assault = 113.373 damage
Defender Lighting Bolt
59.28 Energy Damage at level 50.
Defender Assault:
18.8% Buff
Defender Lightning Bolt + Assault = 70.42 damage
Both gained about 11 damage on their attacks.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus