Discussion: Razer City of Heroes Questions & Answers

Nice solutions...

What is the problem exactly?

Good point. There's also the Defender's Vigilance, which very recently got tweaked. No argument there.

I agree. I believe that Patron Pools should never have required ingame actions to unlock in the first place. But they do require that. So if heroes ever did get their own set, either the heroes' set would have to be unlocked by story arc as well, or the villains' set would have to be reworked to match whatever the hero set was created with.

On the other hand, take a good look at CoV as a whole. The development team seemed to put more emphasis on story than they had in the parts of CoH that were made before the expansion. I'd say they deliberately tied the Patron Pools into working with ingame characters, to keep with the "deeper stories" concept they were shooting for.

My take on it is that both sides should have Ancillary Power Pools which automatically unlock at the upper levels. They also should both have access to power pools that are unlocked through ingame storylines. These power pools are thematically tied to that character or organization, and - within the game's fiction - working with that person/group is the only way to learn those particular secrets. If anyone at all could spontaneously develop powers exactly like theirs, they would have been defeated long ago. But the fact that they're still here is proof that they know how to keep a few secrets.

That sure is how I read it, yep.

Well, the patron arcs are currently only found villain-side. So technically not everyone can access them. Villains, Vigilantes and Rogues will be able to, but not Heroes. It's a straight up issue of balance; one side will have more than the other.

When they were created, Patron Pools were the balance to Ancillary Pools. Now that villains are getting Ancillary Pools as well, the Patron Pools are an extra option available to every character in the game except Heroes.


Usually when people complain about balance issues, it's over something that Heroes are getting that Villains are not. That is a fair complaint, and those who make that complaint feel justified to make it. (Loudly and without rest, in some cases. )

However, you can bet that if Heroes were given access to Patron Pools, but Villains weren't given access to Ancillary Pools, this thread would already be 20 pages long.

By people do you mean me? Because if I'm coming across as eager to have them, then I apologize. I really couldn't care less. But I did kinda get swept up in explaining my comments, I guess

If there's a power I really want, and it needs unlocking, I'll unlock it. If i don't like what it takes to unlock it, I'll ignore it. Simple as that for me.

The part I'm eager about is that whole "just the zones you've seen so far" comment by War Witch in Q13. It makes me hopeful that 1-20 is a current limit on Praetoria, not an ultimate limit.

Thanks to the devs for offering the Q&A!

Yikes. At 4 new powersets (elec looking like mostly recycled animations/visual effects so far too) I'd already say this expansion is extremely light on new powerset options. 1 new set for each AT is the bare minimum of what should be expected in an expansion. That's kind up troubling that kin melee and elec control are getting "squeezed in".

To be totally honest when they announced an expansion I was expecting at least 2 new powersets for each AT (primary and secondary each) and was hoping for a new AT all together. Given the high amount of set sharing that already occurs I don't feel that is too high of an expectation as it would be 8 new powersets total (new blaster manipulation set, new buff/debuff set, new armor set, new dom assault set on top of the 4 already created) I'm just sad I can't actually make a "new" character if I've already tried out each unique primary and secondary once before.

Here's hoping elec control and kin melee are really really fun.

Given the amount of time I'm assuming it takes to make a new powerset, I'd definately say your expectations were too high. If a powerset covers multiple ATs (say, a melee or ranged set), they have to make sure the powers are adjusted for each of the different ATs and I'm guessing that adds to the length it takes to make a new set.

AT modifiers by and large take care of intra AT balance of a set. Outside of some small differences that fall outside of the modifiers, most sets are identical across the AT's that have them.

Was 8 new powersets too much to expect? Well it is certainly more than we are getting. That just means I have shifted my expectations of what should be in a major expansion to other areas. I'm definitely waiting with baited breath for a full features list. War Witch keeps telling me it is going to be legendary and she seems to imply it will blow CoV out of the water, so I'm excited for a very robust showing.

I'm certainly not... but I know how this will go. Lots of people will. so I tried to come up with solutions that would be faster and less resource intensive than a full patron system to satisfy those who ask for it.

If there is no attempt to cross over PPP's, that would be just as good, in my opinion.

Options, my friend. For the Options.

Anything that gives the players more options when building a character will have popular support.

So eventually getting access to four more Epic pools, that maybe require running some story arcs to gain them first, in Paragon City? That means Four More Pools.

That's really all there is to it. People are latching on to an arguable point of imbalance to try and get more powers available to the players.

Personally? I wouldn't mind seeing it, myself. But not based on the big heroes... If I thought it would really fly, I'd recommend using some of the high-level Store contacts (Seraphina, Holsten Armitage, Agent Six, Mark IV, Penny Preston) as the ones giving out the pools. Have Seraphina give out wind-based powers, Armitage have some kind of 'Temporal' based pool, Mark IV provide high tech additions, and Agent Six advanced physical training, maybe?

Just my thoughts, though.

Just curious, Frosticus, but what kind of AT could they introduce that we don't already have? I don't think there's any combination of damage dealing, control, armors, team support, etc, that we can't make right now that wouldn't be crazy overpowered or neutered so much that people wouldn't want to play it anyway.

Options that few will use aren't really options, are they? If Patron pools are teh suck, as many claim, do you think if they were available for heroes people would take them over the awesomesauce Epics they already get? Keep in mind we still only get access to four pools total, no matter how many more pools are available to us. There's only so many powers to spread around. Subtract a travel pool and probably the Fitness pool, and you've got two choices. How many Patron pools have a good power at Tier 1? That's about all you'll have room for in most builds unless you forego the Epics.

I can see taking Patrons for concept over Epics, but not generally for playability. Epics were designed to fill in holes that Hero ATs have. Patron pools were not.

I partly agree with you here, except that Manticore is THE ARCHER. Could your blaster take Manticore as an AV in a one-on-one? I think (and I could be wrong) that the whole idea of the Patron Powers was that someone learned how to use them just a lot better than everyone else and he has decided to teach others his techniques. Just a thought.

I think VEAT's opened the door for a multitude of combinations that currently aren't possible with any of the classic AT's and demonstrated with solid conviction that previous reservations about such pairings being overpowered are in fact not true.

Have VEAT's satisfied that itch? Not really considering fortunatas represent an AT direction of their own (high ranged damage+moderate control+armor). Banes represent an different AT direction (high melee damage+pets+buff/debuff+armor). And Crabs represent yet another (moderate ranged+pets+high armor). Fleshed out a Bane for instance would represent a single powerset choice within an entire AT and I'ld love to play an elemental melee damage dealer with elemental pets and elemental buff/debuff powers.

That said, I haven't really thought about it. It isn't my job any more than it is my job to design new costumes or zones. I'm sure the people that specialize in such things could come up with something if tasked with it. We are far from being able to create anything you want though, which suggests that one way to get closer is via a new AT. As mentioned, I was also hoping to get closer to that goal with more powerset options within our existing parameters too. But that isn't happening either.

Put it in another light. Before VEAT's were created someone could have asked the exact same question you just did. Another thought is we already have 4 AT's that are essentially the same premise of strong melee damage paired with strong survivability, yet they all play distinctly different. Different enough to warrant their own AT. I think that is an indication that if someone were to actually sit and try they could be pretty successful in the endeavor. I'm tempted to try, but honestly I feel at a great disconnect with the devs right now. To the point where if Jesus himself vouched for my work it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

Right, I forgot that, by default, the Freedom Phalanx are better than everyone. No one can hope to surpass them, and we should just stop trying because we'll never be as cool, strong, or all around amazing as them.

Incarnates=personifications=avatars.
So it's like Marvel's Phoenix and maybe the hulk. And DC's Specter and Ion.
Even the Sins and Virtue's from www.sincomics.com.
Cool

*Ignoring the childish and unnecessary sarcasm now*

I never said that, I simply said that Manticore is THE ARCHER. He has the skills, the tricks, and the Mojo with a bow that almost no one else has. He is also willing to share it (with a select few). Your blaster archer (or any other AT for that matter) can not take him solo, and therefore could learn something from him. That reasoning makes for a good basis for unlockable Patron Pool Powers.

It is my personal opinion that Heroes should have a set of Patron Pool Powers in addition too Ancillary Pool Powers (as CoV soon will). That way people can make the choice in which way they want to go. This way if your blaster does want to learn from THE ARCHER, he can, or maybe he wants to expand in other ways.

But in the end, i guess this is my own personal opinion. Feel free to have your own.

Please make Static Field a stun + slow location like I originally thought of it. As a sleep I can't see it being useful enough at all. There should definitely be a sleep power in the set, but not in a form like this. Sleeps are only useful when they aoe the entire mob in a quick shot. In a location power, It won't work well enough they way it needs to as a sleep. Please oh please, make it a stun location, and tell me it isn't set in stone yet.

1st - Outside of your Primary & Secondary, you can take from up to four power pools, AND one Epic pool. I've got a blaster that uses that many.

2nd - Patron pools WERE designed to cover holes an AT would have. The major complaint about them is that... well, they all do it in the same ways, just with minor changes from pool to pool. Take the Brute PPPs, for example. Each one comes with: a ranged attack, an AoE Immobilize, a single 'flavor' power that is unique to each set, an AoE attack, and a Pet. Scrapper APPs, however, are all much different animals - Even when they do share powers (each one has a ranged single target attack and a ranged AoE attack, for example) they are not at the same location in each set.

3rd - Would people do these? Well, first, I think you underestimate how important Theme is to some players, but beyond that... yes, I think they would. I see a lot of high level characters using Epic pools, and don't think that adding more of them would be a bad move.

Don't forget they would need to add lord recluse which would be nice to see.

So from all this, I conclude that what you really want is just more powersets, not a new AT. To me, an archtype is a totally different direction of playing. Yes, Blasters and Scrappers are both high damage (for example), but they play totally different by what makes them unique: their survivability. ATs are about the modifiers, and the primary/secondary combos and how they work together, not necessarily about the actual powers themselves, though there are powers that define an AT, like MMs or Kheldians.

I don't think the Devs are interested in creating more ATs unless they can a) fill in a major hole that can't be reasonably filled by other ATs, or b) create enough unique powersets to justify a category all their own, with appropriate modifiers. Add in the Incarnate system where we're making our existing characters better and that's less incentive for them to add something like a new AT right now.

You missed my point on this one. Patron pools were designed to fill in holes for VILLAIN ATs. The problem is most villains don't have many holes to begin with (which is why they're better at soloing than most Hero ATs generally are). They're redundant powers, for the most part. Epic pools on blueside, however, offer more of what a hero AT needs, like defense for a Blaster, or ranged attacks for Scrappers. If they're gonna offer heroes the chance to take Patrons as they're currently made up, there really aren't very many useful powers that's worth taking up a whole pool for. I'd rather they totally redo Patrons entirely, and really make it a choice worth making.

If that's what you concluded then I either did a poor job explaining or you did a poor job reading. I'm willing to take responsibility, but I'm not really willing to get into an extensive conversation to justify my opinion. You can PM me if you like, but I don't think this thread is the place to hash this out. My expectations for a major expansion are consistent across all games though. Satisfying them within the confines of the specific structure of course varies.

For instance, just because "new areas to explore" is on my check list for an expansion to any game doesn't necessarily mean they have to put that in to make a satisfactory release. It just means something else will need to be elevated.

I could understand your argument if this were Rularuu or Hamidon we are talking about. But it's a guy with a bow who's famous. The only reason he could take any of us is because the Dev's had to make him a challenge for a video game, and even then, people have solo'd him in missions, despite the buffs he has an an EB or AV. Storyline wise, I know for a fact that there are better, stronger characters than him. He, along with the rest of the Phalanx, are just the most famous heroes. And saying he's the only archer with great skills and is willing to teach a select few makes it seem like all our heroes are sidekicks, paling in comparison to the greatness that is the Dev's very own characters. Yeah, no thanks.