I just want my robots to attack without moving.. Is this possible ?
By
AllYourBase,
Posted on: 2010-06-08 19:36 in Masterminds
I keep coming back to this game every year or so, hoping someone's put in a little effort on masterminds, or at least the pet AI. I've been disappointed every time. I usually end up playing a controller for a week or two, then going on to something that's still under serious development.
I think the only way around this is by having Provoke. Its just silly that you need work arounds to make something work properly.
I have been building up a Robot Traps and even at level 6 with one robot and me using Web Grenade the pet STILL runs in.. The mob can't move and the Pet STILL RUNS IN after 1 or 2 shots. Unless the endurance bar on the pets is wrong, he is still at FULL endurance when it is doing this. I just have zero clue why the pet finds the need to run in. Of course once the pet runs into range the Mob ends up killing him with melee attacks.
I make sure to play him every time I am on the game and I report it as a bug every time I am on him.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
And this is why none of my MasterMinds are 50.
After a while the absolute bother of controlling the pets just starts to get to me and I go right back to my Doms and Brutes.
You think it's bad at level 6, just wait until the 30's and you start running around in all those Oranbega maps. One of the most comical sights in this game is a group of bots trying to follow their master across a bridge and shoving each other off the sides of said bridge. Which of course then aggros every single thing at the bottom of the chasm......
Someday, maybe, I'll get my beloved Bots/Storm (who is my forum handle namesake) to 50. If I can just summon enough patience.
Patience needs a lot of slots to be effective.
Seriously, though the MM aesthetic is cool, and i've enjoyed the ones i've played, i end up sticking with other toons as well. After a run with a MM, logging in a brute feels like i've reeled in a bunch of gangling, hard-to-coordinate limbs into a tight bundle of efficient destruction.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
Quote:
You know, very well put. I think you hit it right on the head. You basically can do the same as a mastermind with another toon without all the hassle. |
Originally Posted by Telperion
Patience needs a lot of slots to be effective.
Seriously, though the MM aesthetic is cool, and i've enjoyed the ones i've played, i end up sticking with other toons as well. After a run with a MM, logging in a brute feels like i've reeled in a bunch of gangling, hard-to-coordinate limbs into a tight bundle of efficient destruction. |
The need to make the controlling less of a hassle.
Or as I mentioned before allow me to choose ONE pet that builds upon itself.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=224055
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
Okay. I'm going to deal with this first since it reads like a deliberate trolling.|
Originally Posted by Peyote
I keep coming back to this game every year or so, hoping someone's put in a little effort on masterminds, or at least the pet AI. I've been disappointed every time. I usually end up playing a controller for a week or two, then going on to something that's still under serious development.
|
First thing: Very, very, very, very few MMO's attempt to implement any kind of complex Artificial Intelligence routines in their games for two very good reasons:
- Computational Performance
- Network Lag
Implementing any kind of substanstive A.I. system into City of Heroes would dramatically increase the processing requirements. Now, I know that you haven't been hanging around the technical support forum as Ultra Mode went live, so let me fill you in on what happened. Users with Intel Integrated Graphics, aging Radeons, and Aging Nvidia's, on weak processors, went livid as the game stopped working like they expected the game to work. I can't put any clearer than this: A player base does not respond well when performance of the game changes for the worse.
The use a comprehensive A.I. was one of the big selling features of the NCSoft Published bomb, Tabula Rasa. When the game launched, it's reccomended processor was the Pentium4 3.5 ghz edition, and while the game would support some GeforceFX cards and some Radeon 9600 series cards, users quickly found that you really wanted the reccomended Geforce 7800 or Radeon x1800 instead.
Unless Paragon Studios and NCSoft are willing to blow the existing installed base of City of Heroes aware, you won't see any signficant changes to any existing A.I. systems.
Yes, it has been rumored that the upcoming Going Rogue release features enemies that don't "auto-aggro"... as witnessed during the HeroCon demonstration, but even then that's hardly an A.I. change as much as it is a disabling of perception checks.
* * *
Second thing, and this is the one that makes me use the troll word, is that you insuinate that City of Heroes is not under active developement.
I'm sorry, but if you actually think that... If that's what you actually believe?
We can't help you. You are, to put it bluntly, not in the same reality as the game development.
Now, if you are willing to accept that the game is under active development, and that the developers are serious about what they are doing, and that they are working on more stuff than they can tell us about, then a productive dialog can be had.
* * *
Quote:
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You know, very well put. I think you hit it right on the head. You basically can do the same as a mastermind with another toon without all the hassle. The need to make the controlling less of a hassle. |
Long Version: The developers intentionally designed Mastermind's as a class that requires additional oversight and control compared to other archtypes. The class is deliberatly designed to not play like any other class, and is designed for players who enjoy micro-managing their pets actions.
If you don't enjoy micro-managing and paying attention to your pet's every actions... Mastermind's may not be the archtype for you. That's okay. That's fine. The developers do not need to change a whole class to suit somebody who would rather play "something else"
That being said, going back to your original post:
Quote:
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I gave up trying to figure this out. Does anyone know of a way to make the pets NOT move when attacking or after attacking or before attacking, in the middle of an attack. I have tried stay in defense mode and attacked only with a aoe hold. Which lasts for about the first attack and then the pets run in. I call them back and command them to stay and they run in again. Mind you this is after the latest patch, which was suppose to fix this.. |
In the chat box, inside the game... type in the command: /bug
Then type in: MasterMind Pets are not obeying orders
Hit enter, and in the little box that pops up, type in a quick description of the problem.
This will get the issue looked at much quicker and more likely generate a solution than running a thread on the forum.
I haven't checked my MM, but I know phantasm from illusion is still rushing melee since the patch. He used to happily sit at about 40 ish feet and blast away. Now he blasts a few times and then pulls out an invisible sword that only exists in his mind, rushes into the fight and promptly dies against anything of remote difficulty.
Quote:
Actually, coming to the forums and asking about it is the FIRST thing you should be doing provided you don't have an extensive network of in game contacts to ask.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
If you are ordering your bot to stay in one place and attack and it's not... ... you don't come whining to the forums.
In the chat box, inside the game... type in the command: /bug Then type in: MasterMind Pets are not obeying orders Hit enter, and in the little box that pops up, type in a quick description of the problem. This will get the issue looked at much quicker and more likely generate a solution than running a thread on the forum. |
Sending in bug reports that may not be bugs is a waste of everyone's time and resources.
So indeed asking on the boards if either something is wrong, or he is doing something wrong, is the best course of action. Once confirming that something is wrong PM'ing a suitable dev on the forums as well as submitting a bug report in game is much more productive. Referencing the thread where the issue is discussed (if present) in your PM also helps.
Or just pull up the bug report whenever you feel a sneeze coming on and file it. I'm sure they like that.
Quote:
What people like the poster are asking (and have been asking for since day 1 of CoV's release) for isn't a complex and in-depth AI change, they're asking for a ranged/melee only pet command, something other MMOs with so-called 'pet classes' have been able to provide without bloating up their own system requirements.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Okay. I'm going to deal with this first since it reads like a deliberate trolling.
First thing: Very, very, very, very few MMO's attempt to implement any kind of complex Artificial Intelligence routines in their games for two very good reasons:
Implementing any kind of substanstive A.I. system into City of Heroes would dramatically increase the processing requirements. Now, I know that you haven't been hanging around the technical support forum as Ultra Mode went live, so let me fill you in on what happened. Users with Intel Integrated Graphics, aging Radeons, and Aging Nvidia's, on weak processors, went livid as the game stopped working like they expected the game to work. I can't put any clearer than this: A player base does not respond well when performance of the game changes for the worse. The use a comprehensive A.I. was one of the big selling features of the NCSoft Published bomb, Tabula Rasa. When the game launched, it's reccomended processor was the Pentium4 3.5 ghz edition, and while the game would support some GeforceFX cards and some Radeon 9600 series cards, users quickly found that you really wanted the reccomended Geforce 7800 or Radeon x1800 instead. Unless Paragon Studios and NCSoft are willing to blow the existing installed base of City of Heroes aware, you won't see any signficant changes to any existing A.I. systems. Yes, it has been rumored that the upcoming Going Rogue release features enemies that don't "auto-aggro"... as witnessed during the HeroCon demonstration, but even then that's hardly an A.I. change as much as it is a disabling of perception checks. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Short version: Mastermind's are difficult to control.
Long Version: The developers intentionally designed Mastermind's as a class that requires additional oversight and control compared to other archtypes. The class is deliberatly designed to not play like any other class, and is designed for players who enjoy micro-managing their pets actions. If you don't enjoy micro-managing and paying attention to your pet's every actions... Mastermind's may not be the archtype for you. That's okay. That's fine. The developers do not need to change a whole class to suit somebody who would rather play "something else" |
Quote:
Try replacing this with ninja henchmen fighting Knives of Artimis. First mission against them here is how it went with the enemy:|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
You think it's bad at level 6, just wait until the 30's and you start running around in all those Oranbega maps. One of the most comical sights in this game is a group of bots trying to follow their master across a bridge and shoving each other off the sides of said bridge. Which of course then aggros every single thing at the bottom of the chasm......
|
Genin #1 steps into a caltrop patch, then starts running down random hallways and back
Genin #2 steps into a caltrop patch and ALSO starts randomly running down hallways
Genin #3 runs into the caltrop patch, then keeps running out of it and back in
Jounin #1 sees the caltrops and starts riding the elevator up and down all day
Jounin #2 runs in (slow) circles within one caltrop patch
Oni stands in a caltrop patch going "Dur" and letting it kill him
NONE of them actually listen when I tell them to attack. Yeah, I won. But only due to bodyguard mode, and me having patron pool attacks (as well as vet attacks). And they would take turns who did each of those six actions. Every single fight they did that.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
Why exactly would improving the AI of MM pets, which one would think would (like the AI of other NPCs) be part of the server-side programming, have any effect on the client-side system requirements?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Implementing any kind of substanstive A.I. system into City of Heroes would dramatically increase the processing requirements.
|
Though honestly, just upgrading MM pets so they're at least as smart as enemy mobs would probably be quite a step up in some cases. (At least, when there's not this issue with everything range-only being stupid.)
-Morgan.
Oh yes, because the devs haven't had to constantly tweek enemy AI and power timers due to problems. Such as enemies with both ranged and melee getting stuck in 'melee only' mode. Or enemies with no melee attacks charging into melee range.
Bots on the other hand all have brawl. and an incomplete attack chain. Especially before level 32. As such if they are close enough to an enemy and have no other powers recharged they run in to brawl. It's the same problem the thug arsonist and merc medic have.
Well, the arsonist seems to think he's Mike Tyson frequently. He's always trying to beat enemies down with fisticuffs.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
Very well written response. I admit I was in a foul mood when I posted, and I don't really think that no development is happening. I just think there are old problems that aren't getting a reasonable amount of attention.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
First thing: Very, very, very, very few MMO's attempt to implement any kind of complex Artificial Intelligence routines in their games for two very good reasons:
|
You make some good points. However, the quote above was not one of them. Making ranged pets stay in one place when commanded would simplify their AI, not complicate it. The server would simply leave them in place, treating them as if they were immobilized, until the mastermind released them. The code already exists. At worst, people would complain that pets' behavior had changed.
Making melee pets stay in melee would not be much more complicated. Treat them as if the ranges on all their attacks are no greater than six feet (whatever's appropriate). This would be trivial. Something very similar already happens when you hit an opponent with hurricane. It's possible, though unlikely, that reducing their ranges might cause them to get stuck running back and forth. I haven't seen that happen with range debuffs though.
The best point you make is that the developers (perhaps for some strange idea of play-balance) might not want pets to behave, even a little. If that's the case, then they're adding needless button-mashing to a class that already has plenty to do, in order to satisfy some hypothetical ADD kids.
It makes absolutely no sense for a robot to disobey simple orders. It doesn't even make dramatic sense, unless you're after comic relief. If you want my robots to disobey, do it in a big way. Have them turn on me and declare themselves my master. At least it would be more in the spirit of the comics.
I think of them like Hack and Slash from that old cartoon, Reboot. They were the bad guy's top-ranking henchmen, but were complete buffoons. They more often than not ended up working AGAINST the bad guy in an effort to obey his orders. And always ended up as a pile of scrap.
That's masterminding in a nutshell. Not only do you have endless hordes of enemies to defeat, you also have your own pets' incompetence to overcome. To some, that is more rewarding.
Still, a "Stay, or else" command would be nice. I suspect that the attacking AI scripts override the command obedience scripts. One never quite knows how several groups of discrete code will interact until they do.
As another poster said, Ranged henchmen with melee attacks will resort to them when their other powers are recharging. It seems to me that the Marksmen type enemies (Council, I believe) stay at range no matter what (quite annoying as a brute or tanker), how did they do that? Could that AI be applied to ranged-preference henchmen?
"If this is to be our end, then I would have them make such an end, as to be worthy of remembrance."
In-game at @AYB
Check it out: http://youtu.be/gAJlQ6o8p9g
I believe there was a response once from a dev where he said he wanted to take the agro system out the back and shoot it. Not gonna happen gang.
@ Je_saist
Can you ever post a thread without being insulting or condescending ?
If you weren't so busy letting everyone know how smart you are with computer architecture and took the time to read the post. You would have seen I have tried every limited possible combination. I further re-posted other attempts when the mob was held and cornered.
And still I cannot.. I repeat I cannot stop the pets from running into melee range.
From my understanding the last live patch notes where to suppose to fix this. It clearly did not. So I do post a bug report explaining that.
But OH wait you didn't read that part. Instead you just wanted to spew more insults. Whining and Frustration are 2 different things. I can be Frustrated with the way the AI works. Whining would be coming here just posting I hate MM they stink.. I quit...
I didn't do that. I expressed my issues. listed out what I have done to try to see if it was something I was doing wrong. And then I asked if anyone here had a clue and could help out. Pretty much what these forums are about.
Yet again it is obvious you do not have a clue or are willing to help out.. Instead you want to babble.
Yes, I said babble on your perceived notion of me or anyone else wanting NPC AI implemented into the mastermind system.
I find little use of you coming here and making such a out of topic long winded discussion related to nothing we are discussing here. And then on top of that not even post something that might even be considered a hint of assistance to me or anyone else here.
You could have taken the time to explain how you do it on your Mastermind. Posted Images.. Video links.. But nothing.
Do you even have a mastermind ?
But hey if I post an issue about my video card or my processor in the Mastermind forums, I will gleefully wait for your assistance.
To the rest I am sorry. You can look back at ANY thread I post. I do not do these types of things. It is obvious Je_Saist is upset from a previous thread and is just on a troll attack.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
IF both pets stayed or charged in I could go either way, but they don't. Instead you will have one charging in and another at range. Again I have cornered orange and yellow con mobs and spammed web grenade on them and just cannot figure out what event would cause a pet to rush in. |
Originally Posted by AllYourBase
I think of them like Hack and Slash from that old cartoon, Reboot. They were the bad guy's top-ranking henchmen, but were complete buffoons. They more often than not ended up working AGAINST the bad guy in an effort to obey his orders. And always ended up as a pile of scrap.
That's masterminding in a nutshell. Not only do you have endless hordes of enemies to defeat, you also have your own pets' incompetence to overcome. To some, that is more rewarding. Still, a "Stay, or else" command would be nice. I suspect that the attacking AI scripts override the command obedience scripts. One never quite knows how several groups of discrete code will interact until they do. As another poster said, Ranged henchmen with melee attacks will resort to them when their other powers are recharging. It seems to me that the Marksmen type enemies (Council, I believe) stay at range no matter what (quite annoying as a brute or tanker), how did they do that? Could that AI be applied to ranged-preference henchmen? |
Have a pet attack when your out of range of a mob and look at when he begins his ranged attack. It is very far away. Granted you can see some have a snipe attack. But even the standard attack is a very long range shot.
I really have tried numerous ways to see where the glitch was. I tried to see if was terrain or objects blocking some how. I put pets on passive and then went to defensive while I was getting attacked, I tried summoning them while getting attack, while the mob was held at range, ETC. Really there are not many choices to pick from. I honestly have been trying to figure it out and hoped of posting I FIGURED IT OUT GIVE ME A GOLD STAR. But no luck.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Quote:
Yeah, MM pets get especially stupid vs damage patch type attacks.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Try replacing this with ninja henchmen fighting Knives of Artimis. First mission against them here is how it went with the enemy:
Genin #1 steps into a caltrop patch, then starts running down random hallways and back Genin #2 steps into a caltrop patch and ALSO starts randomly running down hallways Genin #3 runs into the caltrop patch, then keeps running out of it and back in Jounin #1 sees the caltrops and starts riding the elevator up and down all day Jounin #2 runs in (slow) circles within one caltrop patch Oni stands in a caltrop patch going "Dur" and letting it kill him NONE of them actually listen when I tell them to attack. Yeah, I won. But only due to bodyguard mode, and me having patron pool attacks (as well as vet attacks). And they would take turns who did each of those six actions. Every single fight they did that. |
My particular annoyance is with my demon mm's demons vs rikti monkey gas. Fully slotted world of pain+ 2 mm resist auras= demons take no real damage from rikti monkey gas. Yet, they still feel the need to run to the next zipcode to get away from it. What, can they not stand the smell? They're DEMONS.
Just, I don't find dealing with stuff like this fun. It's just irritating.
I think I'd prefer having to command them out of damage patches that actually hurt than having them run that far from the ones that don't.
Culex's resistance guide
This must be a new problem caused by a recent patch. I just came back to the game after a several month hiatus. I have had several bot mms before and while the bots would occasionally run into melee range it was nowhere near as bad as now. I don't think I've had a single fight where I haven't felt like i'm yo-yoing my bots around with the Goto command because they are entering melee.
"Like a Yo-Yo" just isn't a strong enough simile. There was a universal change in pet behaviour some ways back now that was implimented to stop every Necromancy and Ninja Mastermind from complaining that their Grave Knights and Jounin were sitting around using only gloom and Crossbow. For those MMs life got just that little bit better. For everyone else...
After Rolling up a new MM this evening I've come to the startling conclusion that the "Go To" command is a joke played on poor unsuspecting MMs. It seems the harder I try to use "Go To" as a way of keeping my poor pets out of melee and less in harms way of creatures with big swords, knives or blunt instruments of torture, the more they piss me off by rubber-banding between the Go To mark and their intended killer.
Now, don't get me wrong everyone. I do understand that playing a Mastermind is STILL CoV on easy mode, but asking me to get into the spirit of a so-called "mastermind" has put me more in thought of an incompetent Teacher/Parent with several children between the ages of 3 and 5 running about them in ever wilder and more dangerous circles... that lead past pits... broken glass... kitchen knives and a jury-rigged child's round-a-bout with razors on all the edges.
The A.I. "bug/feature" does not make it Hard to play a Mastermind. What it does is make it Annoying to play a Mastermind.
petcom_all goto agressive.
They go to where you like, and stay put as a rule. Closest you're going to get
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
It's the "Stay put as a rule" I'm not seeing. Even if the Mob is... 50... 75ft away the little buggers seem to enjoy fisty-cuffs to firing death from afar.
Only way I found a work around was using Provoke atm. Again you need to be at defense cap to use this effectively though.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
At this point I wish they'd just remove brawl from mercs, thugs and bots. Problem solved.
Last night my bots kept running into melee every time they'd encounter a mob. Before I17 I could GOTO them to a spot and solo an av. Now any attempt at actual strategy is a joke. Only my protector bots would run up. Now, since they took brawl away from protector bits, they are the only bots that actually stay put!
Castle pmed me and said they are working on a fix, but who knows how long that is going to take.
The Case Against Hardcase- arc id: 438272
Clowning Around- arc id: 408447
Down the Rabbit Hole- arc id: 193055
I gave up trying to figure this out.
Does anyone know of a way to make the pets NOT move when attacking or after attacking or before attacking, in the middle of an attack.
I have tried stay in defense mode and attacked only with a aoe hold. Which lasts for about the first attack and then the pets run in. I call them back and command them to stay and they run in again.
Mind you this is after the latest patch, which was suppose to fix this..
I might be selfish, but with Force Bubble going I want my pets to stay near me and act like turrets. Attacking only what comes near or attacking my target without moving. I figured it would make sense if I command the pets to STAY and I attack the pets should respond to my defense when I get attacked back in bodyguard mode. But not move since I told them to STAY..
If I tell them to attack a target I can understand that they are going to move into range to attack that target and continue to get into range to engage that target until I tell them to stop or the target no longer exists.
Pet commands should not be just one generic command line for all the pets. The commands should be tailored to each spec.
Robots are Ranged pets and have minimal or NO melee attacks. So why would I want them in Melee range.. Common sense says I do not want them in melee range.
Robots marked as Stay and in defense mode should attack mobs in range as directed by the player or not attack at all if the mob goes out of range.
Nutshell Stay should MEAN STAY. Not stay sometimes.. Stay maybe. Stay until you get bored. Stay only when I'm looking. Stay is Stay there until I come back from a bio break and lunch. And you better not move or back to the scrapyard.
If Robots are marked as Attack and in Defense mode they should attack that target till it no longer exists and then engage any other targets aggressive to them. Following the chain of command as follows. All pets should target through the largest pet if not otherwise commanded. If the Tier 3 pet is down then the Tier 2 pets are used for targeting purposes and finally Tier 1 pets attack as a team. Again unless otherwise directed by the player.
Cop is sitting at a stop sign and for 3 days while he is there, he notices the same car every day not stop but slowly roll past the stop sign. Finally on the 4th day the Cop stops the man in the car and tells him, for 4 days I've been sitting here and watching you roll through the stop sign without stopping and then go through the intersection. The man replies well I did slow down. At this point the Cop begins to take out his summons book and lightly begins to tap the man on the head. The man surprised asks the Cop what he is doing.
The Cop replies do you want me to Stop or Slow down.
Stay means STAY
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives