Failure of the Developers to Implement Changes.
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-06-04 20:02 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Fiery Aura, likely by accident, has turned out to be a pretty solid offensive set with expensive IO sets in place. However from a tank/defensive perspective it really does blow hard. Getting defense capped is nigh impossible without completely neutering yourself in the process.
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Not to mention that fully IOed out scrapper can't hold aggro as well as a tanker. Even a poorly played tanker holds aggro better then a well played scrapper. Regardless of how survivable said scrapper is.|
Originally Posted by Everfree_Fire
2: Considering the game is, was, and to the best of my knowledge will always be balanced around SOs, how does complaining about an IO'd out scrapper being as survivable as a tanker help your argument in any way. I rolled a tanker because I wanted someone who could be a tanker; She can get aggro, (sort of, she's WP/) hold onto it, and she doesn't die unless I royally screw up with her. Sure, she solos slow, but that's why I only team with her, and I feel that there's no problem with that.
Now maybe I don't have the same point of view you do. I don't know...But these two just seem strange to me. |
When I play a scrapper I flat out can't tank. When I play a warshade I can off tank. When I play my ice/mace tanker... it's gonna take a lot of work for the team to peal enemies off me. And I constantly work to maintain that status. I wont do much damage to any given enemy while teamed. But I'll be at my aggro cap the entire time, and keeping that stuff off the squishies. Sometimes out tanking my fellow tanker.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
overall the devs have been doing a fantastic job fixing stuff and implementing longstanding community requests.
they can't be everywhere at once, alas.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Definite yes on lowering Consume's recharge. It's tohit check alone should translate to some sort of buff. Even thirty seconds off its current recharge would be a help.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Storm
...or like Fire, ludicrously expensive build to fix.
As having both fire/fire tanks and a brute.....small adjustments to fire might just fix it. Yes, consume needs love. No questions asked. The recharge on it is that bad. Now i will say this, with full fury, it will occasionally kill a minion or something. But that is so few and far between, it is hardly justifies its recharge. Leave the accuracy check. Temperature Protection....add End drain resistance or GIVE us an IO that grants a 20% end drain resistance....just like the Winter Slow Resistance IO. That one IO really is noticable when you get some semblance of slow resistance from TP and the IO. If we had an IO 20% resist end drain, then consume recharge could be dropped somewhat....and it still not be perfect, but tolerable. KB protection...fine, leave it out. i can live with it. Burn, up the damage/up end cost, so what little they stay in it, does more damage. Consider adding a slow, or increase the time for the fear to start (ie they stay in the patch longer takes longer to run from it, but not by that much...) Leave the scatter and the fear, yes that can be used for damage mitigation. The power doesn't change much which the devs might do, but helps atleast get like tier 1 aoe blaster damage out of it. With adjustments/fixes (and not major ones at that) and IOs, an immob (like my brute)....or a tank on team with an immob, would be a truely damaging toon. An aoe immob for burn, like my brute, survives better sometimes, because Burn is cheap damage endurance wise, and Consume is so bad on recharge, cheap damage really helps fire. GR and switching sides is coming. And an Immob might be avail to the tankers. But Burn needs a bit more tweaking than just an access to an immob patron power, to put fire back on the top of damage. With an extremely expensive (ludicrously expensive build) my fire tanker and brutes are ok, not on par with the others, but really ok. You should IO to improve, not become par with the other sets....that is whats wrong. |
We should WANT to take Temperature Protection, but that goes into my theory of "All powers should be desirable" issue. Better Cold Res, End drain res, even some small amount of defense built into it would be great. Its fire res is completely pointless. The slow res is a help, but you have to slot a Winter's Gift IO for the slow res to equal Quickness', which almost feels like an afterthought in Quickness. Fiery has basically been turned into a...somehow LESS survivable Regen, relying on it's click heal and Burn's scatter to keep afloat.
I think Temp Prot should be something like 10% Fire Res, 20% Cold Res (To bring Cold up to the other Shield's levels), 40% Slow Res, +20% Recharge. Sort of a ******* child of Temp Protection and Quickness.
It hurts me to say this, but Burn is fine as-is, due to it being Fiery's primary mitigation. The problem is that Burn makes Blazing Aura pointless. BA's strength comes from having multiple enemies inside its radius for extended periods of time. If Fiery's Blazing Aura were a combination of BA and Hot Feet with less range, enemies would enter to attack the player, hit the Burn patch, try to run, and be stuck in the aura (And possibly inside the Burn still as well). The damage for the aura should also be increased as well. Maybe Scrapper value to 15, Tanker to 12, and Brute to 10 (Due to Fury)
Meh, shutting up now...
it's hard to see things like this with a straight face (New Dark Age, post 15):
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... how about "90% max resist vs. 75%, allowing them in the best case to take 2.5 times the damage per actual hit point removed?" | Lets now look at both Blue side Melee ATs. Since Scrappers have an inherent to increase their damage , I feel it is reasonable to think Tankers should have an inherent to increase their durability. Even when not factoring the added imbalance of IOs, Scrappers have High Base damage with Medium Hit points with an inherent that increases damage while Tankers have just Medium Base Damage and High Hit points with no inherent to increase durability. The score is Scrappers 3 , Tankers 2 . The logic is undeniable. Tankers should have a better inherent that coincides with their design purpose, to absorb damage. |
... how about "Tankers have higher damage scales on many of their big attacks, closing much of the alleged damage gap?"
... how about, just, that phrase "The logic is undeniable"? I deny thee, I deny thee, I deny thee. There, I used just as much math as you did.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Kinda agree on Energy Melee. Come Going Rogue, Kinetic Melee stands a good chance of being what Illusion is to Mind and what Shields/WP are to Invuln: concept's too similar, stats are better, everyone plays it instead.
Though of course there's no guarantee Kinetic Melee won't be even worse than EM. <frownyfaces at blaster proliferated Psi Blast and all versions of Dual Pistols>
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and... how exactly... would know what Kinetic Melee is like? Last I checked there was no public beta going on.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Kinda agree on Energy Melee. Come Going Rogue, Kinetic Melee stands a good chance of being what Illusion is to Mind and what Shields/WP are to Invuln: concept's too similar, stats are better, everyone plays it instead.
Though of course there's no guarantee Kinetic Melee won't be even worse than EM. <frownyfaces at blaster proliferated Psi Blast and all versions of Dual Pistols> |
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Since when are posters not allowed to speculate on things in closed beta? Should we all just stop posting about GR at all? Heaven forbid people talk about an upcoming exciting new addition to the game!|
Originally Posted by je_saist
and... how exactly... would know what Kinetic Melee is like? Last I checked there was no public beta going on.
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Oh wait. You just like to go out of your way to get offended and uptight. Carry on.
There's a good chance Kinetic Melee will involve hitting people with fish.
... what?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Hmnnn, A high survival Scrapper might make for a poor man Tank in as
much a sbeing able to do the job of a tank but the problem is the scraper
can't attract Agression or hold it like the Tank.
True you can make your types do things other thanthey wher emeant for
but at the end of the day the Tank isn't about hitting damage but taking
it and holding agression once the target has been pulled.
Each has it's main role to play in a team and whil eit can do other things it
wont be as good as it's main role, well my view any way.
Blaster = Ranged Damage.
Controler = Support.
Defender = Buffing and De-Buffing.
Scrapper = Melee(sp) Damage.
Tank = Agression Holding and Damage Takeing.
Not sure about the otrher two never gotten around to using them tried
once didn't feel right, be nice to be able to do some top end damage but
I'm pretty happy with my Dark Melee/WIll Power Tank she can take a
good licking and keep on ticking.
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Considering that his post was nothing BUT speculation (he even points out that he might be wrong), I'd say that you were not correct in your assumption. Maybe it is you that should look up the difference.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Post Deleted
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
@Logan Storm
The reason in my mind that a Scrapper is a poor mans tank is that it doesn't hold aggression as well. It's not necessarily a matter of survivability. Even if you can hold aggression the aggro cap is 17 touch and go and some people can't seem to be able to stay out of perception range of 18th, 19th etc npc in the room to even capitalise on that.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Eaxactly what Isaid or at least tried to say New Dawn 
Guess I suck at explaining heh
Logan + Explaining what He means = Epic Fail!
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You need to rethink your perception of Controllers. Their secondary is a support set, not their primary. Level an Ill/ to 50.
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Originally Posted by Logan Storm
Blaster = Ranged Damage.
Controler = Support. Defender = Buffing and De-Buffing. Scrapper = Melee(sp) Damage. Tank = Agression Holding and Damage Takeing. |
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Unfortunately the players react very negatively to nerfs. Even if they ultimately get to the same numbers, gradual buffing won't cause near the ruckus that overpowering then nerfing will.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Take risk. Overpowering something seems to bring a much quicker fix than inadquately buffing it over time anyway. So whatever happens...it will be ok.
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On top of that you never know how that buff might interact with other things. I have always trusted the players to come up with things that the devs haven't thought when it comes to exploits or making something overpowered/broken, and always will.
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I'd say, and broadly speaking, there are three basic things to look at: Control, Damage and Buff/Debuff.|
Originally Posted by Logan Storm
Blaster = Ranged Damage.
Controler = Support. Defender = Buffing and De-Buffing. Scrapper = Melee(sp) Damage. Tank = Agression Holding and Damage Takeing. |
So when you look at primaries...
Controllers and Tank are great for Control.
Blasters and Scrappers are great for Damage.
Defenders are best at Buffing/Debuffing
Secondaries, IO's and specific powersets help blur the lines at what a character can do and be good at. Teaming makes things even crazier (enough buffing and debuffing will make anyone hit super-hard!).
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No, that's Carp Melee, or maybe Mackerel Melee. I can't remember exactly which fluke they decided to use.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
There's a good chance Kinetic Melee will involve hitting people with fish.
... what? |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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They'll have glowing fish so if you want you can theme your character as having Holy Mackerel Melee.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, that's Carp Melee, or maybe Mackerel Melee. I can't remember exactly which fluke they decided to use.
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Ok, now I want. I have a Burt Ward themed char I want to make now.|
Originally Posted by Psyte
They'll have glowing fish so if you want you can theme your character as having Holy Mackerel Melee.
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PS: Ten points of Geek Cred who can PM me with what I referenced.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I knew the name sounded familiar Madam_Enigma,|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Ok, now I want. I have a Burt Ward themed char I want to make now.
PS: Ten points of Geek Cred who can PM me with what I referenced. |
Of course you know what that means.
We (or at least I) is very old, since I watched those shows before they went into sindication.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Positivity;2941849 maybe so but so far I've only seen people using their
controls to provide support in the difernt teams I've been, so while I
amobviously mistaken I can only go by what I have expirenced in teams.
Psyte I'm not gonna argue with you that sounds great and have found
though that diferant teams do things in differant wways weather or not
that makes them wrong I can not say only that it works to some degree.
But to both of you all I can say really is Fair Enough
my EA brute, first brute I made when CoV came out, is perma shelved at 50 because EA isnt much fun to play. The cloak? Useful for solo, running to the end, not liked much on teams. The change to energy drain was nice but not nearly enough. For a set called "Energy Aura", you'd think it would have gotten Energize too.
/gignore @username is the best feature of this game. It's also probably the least used feature.
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Originally Posted by Nights_Dawn
Hazy is right
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I see your point but I believe that by taking greater risk the lesser evil is chosen. It is better a set be buffed too much then quickly nerfed than letting a set rot for several years. The end result would be the same only faster. Discontent exists no matter what you do.|
Originally Posted by Psyte
Unfortunately the players react very negatively to nerfs. Even if they ultimately get to the same numbers, gradual buffing won't cause near the ruckus that overpowering then nerfing will.
On top of that you never know how that buff might interact with other things. I have always trusted the players to come up with things that the devs haven't thought when it comes to exploits or making something overpowered/broken, and always will. |
Taking risk does not always bring failure anyway. By being timid with the changes, the Devs almost guarantee failure. I quit the game for nearly two years and still return to find sets like EA and FA suffering. If they buffed both sets boldly the first time and then nerfed them again slightly then they would not have been in such a poor state for so long. We would be sitting here talking about how EA and FA are solid sets.
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the problem with doing it this way is that you would have a lot more whining and crying about nerfs then anything. that is why it takes a while to make changes to power sets and such. they have to make sure that they aren't going to destroy the powerset by doing so while keeping playability there.
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I see your point but I believe that by taking greater risk the lesser evil is chosen. It is better a set be buffed too much then quickly nerfed than letting a set rot for several years. The end result would be the same only faster. Discontent exists no matter what you do.
Taking risk does not always bring failure anyway. By being timid with the changes, the Devs almost guarantee failure. I quit the game for nearly two years and still return to find sets like EA and FA suffering. If they buffed both sets boldly the first time and then nerfed them again slightly then they would not have been in such a poor state for so long. We would be sitting here talking about how EA and FA are solid sets. |
whats this Tank you speak of?
Whats this Energy melee or Energy Aura?
is this a joke thread?