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My experiences were pretty similar: I bought my copy of CoX from the shops, not knowing that it unwittingly meant gating me to the EU servers without the ability to transfer to the US. Why should I had thought this was going to happen, when the closest game I've ever played that could be called a mmo was Guild Wars, which allowed me to play on the US if I choose so?|
Originally Posted by Bull Throttle
The explanation is pretty simple really. CoH was my first MMO and I didn't do much in the way of research. I'd never bought a game online back then - it was not common practice and I didn't even know it was available - the options I saw were importing a copy from the US (and paying import duty, yay) or waiting for it it appear at my local shop. |
I've collected too much stuff, and know too many people on the EU servers to just up and move over to the US now, but ever since the whole debacle I've vowed to check that if any other mmo I play had the same player-punishing segregation then I sure as hell am going to make sure I'm going to be on the US servers.
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Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
This thread has turned into Americans complaining that the Europeans are exaggerating, and the europeans in turn are defending their VALID reasons. And there are people trolling in the tags.
I invite all of you Americans to come to Defiant or Union for a week.
Get a trial key (oh wait, all the trials go to the american server), get a 30 day key of ebay or something and see the population problem for yourself, then come back to me and say to me it is still fine for a team build such as a pure empathy defender. (I'm sure you can manage with a solo character).
The reasons this thread was created still stand:
Population Wise the Eu community is at a new low:
- Less then 80 people online server wide in Prime Time which results in empty zones, and trouble finding teams
- Some badges are just impossible to get due to the lack of people (such as the rikti mothership raid badges)
A total lack of communication from ncsoft resulting in:
- 2 missed boxsets in a row with a lame excuse about european users using broadband.
A counter excuse has already been given, there are still plenty of Europeans that prefer retail copies/don't own broadband. NCSoft just doesn't want to take a possible financial loss (which is perfectly understandable since they try and make a profit, but they should have said so and not make up an excuse and lie to the community).
- A american only pre order bonus, which if it doesn't release for the EU in a booster pack, will be the start of a gap in content between the US and the EU.
A change in the way European Support and American Support operates:
- For example: it is not possible to restore deleted characters trough EU support staff, reason given is that it is not possible, but US Support does it for the American players.
Upon providing this to the EU support staff they still refuse to restore characters.
Difference in:
- Available amount of Slots
- Available amount of Servers
Yet the monthly fee we pay is the same as the Americans.
A total lack of any form of community communication from red names other then:
- The same, repeated soon(tm) or it is being looked into replies.
We still don't know why it isnt possible to reverse the old US->EU transfer techology.
It is old technology that is in place, saying it is not possible with the current servers is a lie, because it is because it has been done in the past.
When they released the European boxset, we where promised a identical expirience to the American release of the game, something that hasn''t been true for a long time anymore.
As a european, I feel that ncsoft sees the european community as nothing more then a mine, they can drain dry before closing it all together. Our love for the game, and the few friends that we have left on the servers is all that is keeping us together.
rpgguy, I hear you and as you can see from my posts above, I agree what a lot of your points and I think it was good that you moved this matter out of the European Lounge into here.
However I feel that continuing to sound off in this manner will not have any effect other than some of our US friends (yes friends) getting a little annoyed by the repetative nature of this thread, after all many have said that they support us.
In fairness I'm not convinced that all of your statement can be backed up.
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I'm not sure this can be proved without real figures, I'm not saying it isn't really low, I'm just not sure that this is a fact. (Wait to the world cup starts, I suspect numbers will fall more).|
Originally Posted by rpgguy
Population Wise the Eu community is at a new low |
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2 missed boxsets in a row with a lame excuse about european users using broadband. A counter excuse has already been given, there are still plenty of Europeans that prefer retail copies/don't own broadband. NCSoft just doesn't want to take a possible financial loss (which is perfectly understandable since they try and make a profit, but they should have said so and not make up an excuse and lie to the community). |
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The same, repeated soon(tm) or it is being looked into replies. We still don't know why it isnt possible to reverse the old US->EU transfer techology. It is old technology that is in place, saying it is not possible with the current servers is a lie, because it is because it has been done in the past. |
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Can I just mention something here?|
Originally Posted by rpgguy
Population Wise the Eu community is at a new low:
- Less then 80 people online server wide in Prime Time which results in empty zones, and trouble finding teams |
/search does NOT give you the full population figures.
It doesn't include me, for a start. All my toons are /hidden from searches.
If I'm solo, I'm solo. If I'm teamed, I'm teamed with people that I know and have played with for a long while. I don't tend to play PuG's, and taking in players I don't know is an irregular and infrequent event.
I don't know how many others may be in a similar situation regarding /hide status, but you can't just assume that /search gives you the whole story.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
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Originally Posted by Canine
Can I just mention something here?
/search does NOT give you the full population figures. It doesn't include me, for a start. All my toons are /hidden from searches. If I'm solo, I'm solo. If I'm teamed, I'm teamed with people that I know and have played with for a long while. I don't tend to play PuG's, and taking in players I don't know is an irregular and infrequent event. I don't know how many others may be in a similar situation regarding /hide status, but you can't just assume that /search gives you the whole story. We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument. |
Ummm you haven't disproven him in the slightest.
Him : Numbers are low on search, and it makes it difficult to form a PUG
You : Some people don't team with PUG's and are on hide.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Equally you could watch them on-line from anywhere...
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Originally Posted by Tyrrano
My favorite band is from England. They're not horribly popular, so they no longer play to big stadiums. And they were never very popular on this side of the Atlantic. Still, I pay my money when they release new music. I should have just as much opportunity to see them live as someone living in England. But no. If I'm lucky they come a couple of times a decade, usually to someplace like Montreal. Mind you, that's about a 25 hour drive from here. That's hardly fair, now is it?
Unfortunately, life is rarely fair. |
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I am neither American nor European. What am I supposed to be doing?
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Originally Posted by rpgguy
This thread has turned into Americans complaining that the Europeans are exaggerating, and the europeans in turn are defending their VALID reasons. And there are people trolling in the tags.
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Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue
Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~
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Very true and I've made good use of the /hide myself.|
Originally Posted by Canine
Can I just mention something here?
/search does NOT give you the full population figures. It doesn't include me, for a start. All my toons are /hidden from searches. |
But unless you can somehow state that players on server x behave differently to players on server y, it can still serve as a very rough comparison; as can looking to see how many people are under the Atlas statue during prime time. Neither are scientifc but 'enough population' is pretty subjective anyway.
Personally I use the is it possible to join a PuG?* method; which is why I now play on Virtue rather than Union.
(*within the time I have available without having to form my own)
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Why, keep on dancing, dahlink.|
Originally Posted by DKellis
I am neither American nor European. What am I supposed to be doing?
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@rpgguy: Small point of fact: the NA players have exactly the same amount of slots as the EU players per server rpgguy. We have neither more, neither less than them.
I'd address the others aspects of your message but frankly, I can't be bothered any more.
@whoever used the EU = pew-yew! tag: thanks, I LOL.
Rabbits & Hares:Blue (Mind/Emp Controller)Maroon (Rad/Thermal Corruptor)and one of each AT all at 50
MA Arcs: Apples of Contention - 3184; Zen & Relaxation - 35392; Tears of Leviathan - 121733 | All posts are rated "R" for "R-r-rrrrr, baby!"|Now, and this is very important... do you want a hug? COH Faces @Blue Rabbit
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It may not have been an outright lie, but when telling us why there would be no boxed MA version in the EU, they did say that it was because another major box release was coming, and they didn't think it worthwhile doing both for us. Which certainly implied we would be getting a boxed Going Rogue.
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Originally Posted by Night_Hornet
I think it's unfair to say that they lied on this matter as I'm pretty sure they made no promises.
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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Look at it this way - I live in Europe and this is the time zone I have to work with. I log onto the servers I have access to in the time of day I can spare, and this is the number of people I see. You quote server population numbers that are HIGHER than what I'm seeing, yet still claim mine are greater. This isn't a question of how many people THERE ARE, it's a question of how many people I CAN PLAY WITH, and the only people I can play with are the people who are online when I'm online. That's either hypnophobic Americans, or other EU players anyway, and their numbers are not as high as you might think.|
Originally Posted by Bull Throttle
This obviously didn't translate well; 'on life-support' means 'almost dead'; I was talking about the population levels - and you comparing prime-time EU population numbers with the non-prime-time NA numbers that you see doesn't really change the fact that the EU population is very low. If I log into a EU server in the middle of the night or early afternoon time over here I'll only see a handful of people on the entire server too - even on the most populated one.
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I very much can, and more over SHOULD compare EU prime time with US downtime, because due to time zones, EU prime time IS US downtime, and since EU prime time is all the time I can play when I have work in the morning, it makes sense to compare those numbers. Concurrent accounts as a printed stat doesn't do anything for me when those numbers only occur during times of day when I can't play. Well, can't play AND go to work the next morning.
[/quote]Insult away - it's perfectly understandable reaction and with the benefit of hindsight I agree it seems like a mad thing to do.[/QUOTE]
I don't WANT to insult you
Sounds like you were a victim of circumstances. When I bought the game back in May of 2004, there was no US version, so I actually had to have my brother in the US buy it for me as a birthday gift, and he put in a time card along with it. I don't remember why. So when the EU version came out, I was asked to SWITCH, at which point I got to thinking if I wanted to. And I could not think of a single reason why I would.
Maybe it's because we here are pretty much counter-nationalistic, but I've never EVER wanted localised software, myself. I tried playing online multiplayer before, and my connection was crap all around the world, EU or otherwise. The reason I picked City of Heroes was because you didn't NEED fast connection to play it, something I learned back in the days of Dungeon Siege. FPS games could suck if you didn't have broadband, but RPGs you could play even on dial-up. In fact, I did. Rather a lot.
It's a general policy of mine that if there is a local version of a global service that I'm redirected to, it's going to suck and I'll do my best to back out of it and go back to the international site. When I visit nVidia, I visit their American site, if for no reason other than spite, just as an example. As such, I would need SERIOUS reason to NOT play the original international release. And, to be honest, importing a copy is an acceptable cost. I firmly believe that localised versions of foreign software are never superior to the original, and it didn't take City of Heroes to teach me that.
Of course, it took PlayNC cramming localised sites down my throat that taught me to HATE!!! it, but that's besides the point.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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True, and that sucks badly, IMO. It also sucks that the website has an EU and US version and, annoyingly, the US side looks better, is kept more up to date and is generally better made.|
Originally Posted by rpgguy
Get a trial key (oh wait, all the trials go to the american server),
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| then come back to me and say to me it is still fine for a team build such as a pure empathy defender. (I'm sure you can manage with a solo character). |
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[b]Population Wise the Eu community is at a new low: - Less then 80 people online server wide in Prime Time which results in empty zones, and trouble finding teams - Some badges are just impossible to get due to the lack of people (such as the rikti mothership raid badges) |
Ship Raids are completely untrue, I know Friday is Unions designated 'Beat the crap outta the Rikti' day.
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A total lack of communication from ncsoft resulting in: - 2 missed boxsets in a row with a lame excuse about european users using broadband. A counter excuse has already been given, there are still plenty of Europeans that prefer retail copies/don't own broadband. NCSoft just doesn't want to take a possible financial loss (which is perfectly understandable since they try and make a profit, but they should have said so and not make up an excuse and lie to the community). - A american only pre order bonus, which if it doesn't release for the EU in a booster pack, will be the start of a gap in content between the US and the EU. |
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A change in the way European Support and American Support operates: - For example: it is not possible to restore deleted characters trough EU support staff, reason given is that it is not possible, but US Support does it for the American players. Upon providing this to the EU support staff they still refuse to restore characters. |
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Difference in: - Available amount of Slots - Available amount of Servers Yet the monthly fee we pay is the same as the Americans. |
And I think due to the conversion rate the EU actually pays MORE for their subs than the US does, not 100% sure on that though.
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A total lack of any form of community communication from red names other then: - The same, repeated soon(tm) or it is being looked into replies. We still don't know why it isnt possible to reverse the old US->EU transfer techology. It is old technology that is in place, saying it is not possible with the current servers is a lie, because it is because it has been done in the past. When they released the European boxset, we where promised a identical expirience to the American release of the game, something that hasn''t been true for a long time anymore. As a european, I feel that ncsoft sees the european community as nothing more then a mine, they can drain dry before closing it all together. Our love for the game, and the few friends that we have left on the servers is all that is keeping us together. |
I would also once more call for attempting a server list merger. I dont see any actual downside to it, other than 'technical difficulties' which is, frankly, part and parcel of running an MMO in the first place. US players get a few more servers with slots for free, EU *finally* gets them all opened up, and there is no need for EU/US codes that can lead to clogging up support when they invariably go wrong, because there would only be one client.
Correct me if Im wrong.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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OK, here's what I don't get - why do you need box sets? I have both the CoH and the CoV boxes, and I filed both of those under "dog" pretty much the next day after I got them. I guess it's useful to have a CD backup, even if mine are both over five years old and completely worthless and I could make my own CD backups if I REALLY wanted to.
But really, why? Why ask for a box when the only two uses for boxes is to store things in before you get then and to stack on a shelf never to open again because you don't need to?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's a mystery to me too, although not having the opportunity to get the preorder stuff would make the collector in me itch.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, here's what I don't get - why do you need box sets? I have both the CoH and the CoV boxes, and I filed both of those under "dog" pretty much the next day after I got them. I guess it's useful to have a CD backup, even if mine are both over five years old and completely worthless and I could make my own CD backups if I REALLY wanted to.
But really, why? Why ask for a box when the only two uses for boxes is to store things in before you get then and to stack on a shelf never to open again because you don't need to? |
That said, I never buy MP3s..I buy CDs and rip them; sometimes you want something on the shelf I suppose (or in the car in my case).
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I don't know about Euros, but I'm fairly sure I paid slightly more in Dollars last time than I was doing in Pounds on my EU account - but it fluctuates.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And I think due to the conversion rate the EU actually pays MORE for their subs than the US does, not 100% sure on that though.
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It occurs to me that on the French and German servers the number of players contributing to the upkeep on those servers is way below average, forcing the EU subscription per server ratio below average.
So you could make the argument that the NA servers are subsidising the EU ones.
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Yeah, but I got shells full of crap that I don't need or want, but feel bad about throwing away. Old books my father left me that I wouldn't read even if I spoke russian, computer parts crap like old driver CDs for hardware that's long gone, boxes for games I haven't touched in years, like... I'm actually looking at Wing Commander III: Heart of the Tiger right now. I don't know if that would even RUN, or indeed if the CDs are still readable. And I'm not sentimental, so I'm sure people have even MORE crap on their shelves than I do.|
Originally Posted by Bull Throttle
It's a mystery to me too, although not having the opportunity to get the preorder stuff would make the collector in me itch.
That said, I never buy MP3s..I buy CDs and rip them; sometimes you want something on the shelf I suppose (or in the car in my case). |
Hell, every time people like the Spoony One or Linkara flip the camera around the room they're shooting in, they always come off as hoarders because they have boxes on the floor, piles of random crap, all manner of stuff on a zillion shelves... And James Rolfe's basement is just SCARY!
Yeah, sure, instead I have a PC full of crap. You would NOT want to see my Downloads folder, and I probably wouldn't want to show it to you. But I can always sort this out with a quick deltree (hardy-har-har) because most of that stuff I either have uploaded, burned to, like, one of ten DVDs ever, or I can redownload from the 'net, like this game or all the steam games I have. Boxes just take up stuff and don't really serve any purpose.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Because a box to put on shalves in game stores will have alot more success in drawing people into the game than not having boxes on the shelves.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, here's what I don't get - why do you need box sets? I have both the CoH and the CoV boxes, and I filed both of those under "dog" pretty much the next day after I got them. I guess it's useful to have a CD backup, even if mine are both over five years old and completely worthless and I could make my own CD backups if I REALLY wanted to.
But really, why? Why ask for a box when the only two uses for boxes is to store things in before you get then and to stack on a shelf never to open again because you don't need to? |
The EU community want new people to come and play with us. But NCSoft isn't exaktly making it easy for em to find the game and come play it.
Couldn't care less about a box with a cd, but i'd very much like to see new people come onto the game. And a box to display the game in stores would help with that.
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Would you believe me if I told you I've been in a video game store exactly ONCE in my life? Almost all games I own I've bought online, from other people, through other people or been given as presents.|
Originally Posted by Sapphic_Neko
Because a box to put on shalves in game stores will have alot more success in drawing people into the game than not having boxes on the shelves.
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Not really making a point, just explaining why I may not be able to get it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by rpgguy
As Night_Hornet has stated, I to think that it is unfair we have to pay the same amount as the Americans, but get less content, less interaction (developer->community and vice versa), less player slots, less servers and worst of all; empty zones even in peak times.
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Originally Posted by Night_Hornet
Equally you could watch them on-line from anywhere...
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I've got nothing against our Euro brethren, and personally I'd be all for finding some way to improve their experience. I'd play on Union or Defiant. Heck, I'd play on the German server and practice my admittedly-horrid Deutsch. But the idea that NCSoft *owes* you better service rankles me. They provide a service. You pay to access it. Your recourse, should you not think the service worth the money, is to cease paying for and using it. I know that sounds callous, but that's capitalism for ya.
I want to thank all of you Americans (and europeans of course ) and not forgetting anyone in any other part of the world who understand our cause.
The reason I brought this out of the European Sub-Section is because I felt it needed more attention and the other side of the community needs to hear and see how Ncsoft is treating the european community.
Samuel_Tow
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Well there are multiple reasons, mainly that it has a collection value and some users can't download gigs and gigs off data everytime that they have to reinstall the game.|
OK, here's what I don't get - why do you need box sets? I have both the CoH and the CoV boxes, and I filed both of those under "dog" pretty much the next day after I got them. I guess it's useful to have a CD backup, even if mine are both over five years old and completely worthless and I could make my own CD backups if I REALLY wanted to. But really, why? Why ask for a box when the only two uses for boxes is to store things in before you get then and to stack on a shelf never to open again because you don't need to? |
And then theres the fact not all of us are on broadband, like ncsoft claims we are.
They are using a lie to get out from under a promise.
And a promise is something that should be kept.
And don't forget it is a way for new people that don't touch digital distribution to find the game.
Techbot Alpha
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| Untrue. I have an empath on Union, and she manages just fine. |
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Less teams I will *shrug* on, because my hours atm dont allow me to really experience it much. I still do get PuGs though, although more so at weekends when I have decent net access. Ship Raids are completely untrue, I know Friday is Unions designated 'Beat the crap outta the Rikti' day. |
I'm not saying I never get a pug, because I do.
In fact I was in a nice pug with my empath on union last night.
But there used to be LOTS more pugs a couple of issue's back.
And don't forget about the stupid certain server only events ncsoft planned in the past which totally unevened the population number for Defiant and Union, leaving Defiant with far less players then Union.
Blue Rabbit
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Why, keep on dancing, dahlink. @rpgguy: Small point of fact: the NA players have exactly the same amount of slots as the EU players per server rpgguy. We have neither more, neither less than them. |
While we indeed have the same number of slots per server, we have less servers then the americans.
So in total they have more slots then us for the same monthly fee.
Night_Hornet
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| I think it's unfair to say that they lied on this matter as I'm pretty sure they made no promises. |
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Well, that doesn't really change anything now does it? People that are hidden from search and just might as well not be there at all for us player who do like to play in PuGs.
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Originally Posted by Canine
Can I just mention something here?
/search does NOT give you the full population figures. It doesn't include me, for a start. All my toons are /hidden from searches. If I'm solo, I'm solo. If I'm teamed, I'm teamed with people that I know and have played with for a long while. I don't tend to play PuG's, and taking in players I don't know is an irregular and infrequent event. I don't know how many others may be in a similar situation regarding /hide status, but you can't just assume that /search gives you the whole story. We now return you to your regularly scheduled argument. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
All I want to say is that I hope, one day, all of the servers will be on the same list.
I'd like to see the servers and game version globalized.
I (Accidentally/Coincidentally) played another mmorpg on the unoffical French Server and I loved it. The population was steady at all times due to the high European, North American East Coast and N.A. West Coast players in their respective time zones. It was fun. It was also nice to deal with all of the different languages and everyone learning to communicate however possible.
Anyway, I've long wanted to see the two versions merged, as it were. I hope it happens some time.
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Immigrate!! |
Originally Posted by DKellis
I am neither American nor European. What am I supposed to be doing?
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(hehe, just kidding, of course!)
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Nope, but your argument is moot as we are talking about an on-line game here. |
Originally Posted by Tyrrano
Would you consider watching them online equivalent to being there?
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| I've got nothing against our Euro brethren, and personally I'd be all for finding some way to improve their experience. I'd play on Union or Defiant. Heck, I'd play on the German server and practice my admittedly-horrid Deutsch. |
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| But the idea that NCSoft *owes* you better service rankles me. They provide a service. You pay to access it. Your recourse, should you not think the service worth the money, is to cease paying for and using it. I know that sounds callous, but that's capitalism for ya. |
As someone that works in development, I understand in some ways the methods to prioritise system enhancements and I'm guessing the benefits case for a merge or such like is small compared to what's going on at the moment. So I for one would not expect anything soon, that doesn't mean of course that people shouldn't be able to voice their displeasure either.
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The EU side is trapped in a vicious cycle. We don't return as much profit as the Americans do, therefore NCSoft doesn't place as much support and marketing into our community, therefore we don't gain as many new players and profits continue to stay low.
I don't really know how to solve this. I'd like the idea of merging the server list - I've got some buddies over on US side who I'd like to team up with, but I'd like to keep my shiny vet badges
~union4lyfe~
There are people on the EU servers who see the population as 'fine' and are quite happy too. I'm reasonably confident that they, like you, are in the minority.
The explanation is pretty simple really. CoH was my first MMO and I didn't do much in the way of research. I'd never bought a game online back then - it was not common practice and I didn't even know it was available - the options I saw were importing a copy from the US (and paying import duty, yay) or waiting for it it appear at my local shop.
Back in 2005 I had dreadful internet access and my only experience of playing games across the atlantic was FPS games - the latency was horrible trying to play on US servers, whereas playing on EU servers was fine - why the heck would I buy the NA version in those circumstances?
I, along with a fair few other people at the time, did not expect to be excluded from the NA servers or forums and we were surprised to find ourselves in a walled-off EU ghetto. I was not in the EU beta so the first time I saw the server list was Feb 2005 when I bought my account; I found the forum a couple of days later. Those 16 english-server character slots seemed like plenty at first (what's an alt?), the population was great, everything was happy and shiny apart from the odd period of massive lag during the first few weeks. I wasn't expecting to play the game for years.
It's very easy to throw the 'Gosh you were stupid buying the EU version rather the the NA version' at me but if the EU version was so obviously a bad idea at the time, how did NCSoft manage to convince any NA players to transfer at all? The fact is for the first few years the EU game was great, most people were happy; our major complaints were 'not being able to post on the NA forums' and grumbling about how few character slots we had by comparison.
That was a long time ago.