Trying to wrap my head around Soldiers being Natural instead of Tech

The problem here guys is we are using COH's definition to categorize comic book characters that don't appear anywhere in the game and their creators really couldn't care less how COH or we define them. It's all relative to HOW you chose to define them.

COH uses a very strict narrow defination of how or where their main power came from and yes under that Batman is natural etc.. But I look at other factors as well so let's call my definitions the WENDY Definers

Batman's primary source of power is Natural, since he achieved it strictly from years of training mind and body but he does use a lot of Science and Technology to acheive his goals. So lets call him a NAT/TECH/SCI.

In my mind I don't care HOW your body mutated and allowed you to perform super human feats the fact is it did. Without that mutation your just a regular guy or girl.

Now Wolverine, by my defination is probably about the purist Mutant we've discussed. He, sort of like Synapse, had no desire to have the alterations done to his body through the use of science but he always had the power to heal himself and doesn't seem to age. I'd call him a MUT/SCI

The Fantastic 4 like I said I don't care how their bodies mutated they did. Reed Richards is still a scientist and uses that in battling Doc Doom and many others along with high Tech devices HE designs and builds. Let's call him, and to make everyone happy we will use COH standards (a bit), a SCI/MUT/TECH I usedf SCI first to make COH happy :-D


Iron man is clearly very much TECH but remember he also perfected the power source which keeps him alive and runs the thing.. Even in his ordinary life, if a Playboy Billionaire HAS an ordinary life, he's involved in both Technology and Scienece. I'd give him a TECH/SCI rating.



See anyone can devise a system to rate(?) or define super heroes and their powers and none are right or wrong. One last example to sort of clear up AND confuse the issue.

Spiderman .. Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and his body mutates giving him spider like super powers. Okay using COH definations he's SCIENCE right since his mutation was not natural but cause by the radiation and the spiders bite. BUT was it the radiation from the bite that caused his mutation? or did the spider mutate from the radiation and something in the venom or saliva that entered Parker's body when he was bitten cause those changes? I'd say it was the latter since if it was purely a reaction to radiation its a VERY interesting coincidence that his mutation happened to involve becoming spiderlike. So he became a mutant because of a spider's bite. Spider's, radioactive or not, bite people all the time so it could be argued that "technically" Parker's mutation is a natural event. It's NOT of course but he didn't fly off into space and through an accident become exposede to a massive dose of radiation or develop a serum that allows him to swing from the sides of building.. A bug bit him LOL (yes I am aware insect have 6 legs and spiders 8 and are two seperate things... they are both still icky bugs to a 6 year old girl LOL

Point is there really isn't one clear cut definition and the reality is we are talking about super heroes in a fantasy game and in comic books. COH defines their characters using a ONE origin system so, getting back to the Op's original question an SoA is a natural villain because their strength primarily comes form years of physical training. They use technology to accomplish thie goals but its that natural training that allows them to do so. When all else fails see NC SOFT rule #1: Its that way because its our game and we said so! :-D

What makes a marksman deadly? Is it his skill with a gun, or is it the gun?

If we argue it's his skill, then he would be Natural. If we argue it's the gun, then he would be Tech. But even then, a gun is such a simple device that it's often overlooked, thus bringing us back to Natural.

In short, the question is: How complex must a device be to qualify as Tech? I think the threshold is pretty high in the universe of CoX. A Crab backpack is the most complex SoA weapon, but in the end what is it besides a really big gun?

The next point is looking into the term "Origin" itself. Which came first, the training or the gear? The training, of course. Natural.

And of course, the common arguement, what would happen if you took away all the gadgets? I think they would be perfectly capable of holding their own without them.

I honestly think that once you get the Crab Backpack, the Natural Origin falls by the wayside. That seems to me to be a cybernetic implant. That's essentially where I draw the line, in the old Origin system, Superior Human and Gadgeteer were what we might call Natural today, but Cybernetics is Technology. It's adding technology to your body.

OTOH, in threads I've read on the subject, I've agreed that it's possible there are different types of backpacks. The cybernetic implants wired directly into the brain are for the top of the line, "Special Forces" type of Crab Soldiers, but the low level grunts might just be using an actual backpack they wear, which is controlled by sensors in their gloves. So it could just be an extremely powerful and complex sort of machine gun. It's a weapon, and a stock factory produced weapon, at that.

That's really where I draw the line between Natural Origins that use gadgets, and Technology Origin that uses gadgets. If the gadget is doing all the work, and it's a one of a kind, special item developed by the hero himself, or a team of geniuses working for him, then it's Technology. If it's just a weapon, in the hands of a trained soldier who wields that weapon so well because HE knows how to use it, then it's Natural. Batman's gadgets, for all their high tech, are dangerous because of Batman's training. Iron Man's suit, on the other hand, plans a lot of the strategy and does a lot of the fighting for him.

Not only that, but while Batman had to build a lot of his equipment himself, Natural heroes in Paragon City seem to be able to pick their gadgets up at the local Image Inc. It's all bought off the shelf. That doesn't mean he can't build his own gadgets, but it may save time if he doesn't have to. (Not to mention he doesn't have to be a millionare playboy to afford it )

GavinRuneblade said it best, and I think it's still the best test for who is Natural. "If you take away all his wonderful toys and he STILL kicks your butt, he's Natural." The Natural hero (or villain) doesn't need the weapons, they're just there to make the job easier.

In the case of Crab Spiders, even if you take away his backpack, he does still have all that time he spent as a Wolf Spider to fall back on. Likewise, the Fortunatas may have had to undergo some scientific or genetic experimentation to unlock those mental attacks, but if they didn't have the discipline already from being Widows they probably wouldn't be able to control it. Most of the Tarantula Mistresses apparently go insane from the combination of unlocking their mental powers and being transformed into cybernetic spiders anyway.

We've talked about this before.

To repeat here.

When a huntsman gets offered to become a Crab/Bane they get there basic training and equipment. And then are shoved into there new role to see if they can handle it. They start with a set of robot legs and power armor that's low quality/easy to produce. If they show sufficient skill/ability with the basic equipment they may get better equipment.

Eventually the legs are implanted probably along with a promotion/squad command and with a MIU [(Mind Inpulse Uint) Alala WH40K] Enables them to convey the precise controls to shoot and mealy with greater effect and accuracy.


In short they start out Natural but become Tech later on.


(In my opinion)

I found this suggestion for origin criteria on another thread, and I kind of like it.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com//show...25#post2903125

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood_Wolffe I always go by what enhancements would your character use. Would she use natural enhancements like training and super healthy food, or gadgets like high tech goggles and prosthetic organs?

The question for Batman is: if he wanted to become a better hero, what would progress him more: spending more time at the gym, or investing more money in his gadgets? If spending time at the gym is the key to moving further, then he's natural.

For a mutant like say Colossus: Should he spend his time more on practicing turning his body into steel, or leave the steel turned off so he can lift weights at a gym?

For a science like the Hulk: should Bruce Banner spend his time trying to find medical treatments that allow him to stay intelligent when he changes, or just practice changing on demand by biting his tongue until it makes him angry? - (Cause if you're a natural mutant, there's little point in doing experimental research to increase your powers. )

Now, when Iron Man wants to become tougher, I think he's in the opposite place of Batman. A few more gadgets will go a long way, but training at the Dojo will only help him improve his martial arts skills from novice to mediocre.

Wow. You guys are getting into this way to much....

I always though it odd that both VEATs were Natural. If I was in charge, I would have made the Soldiers Tech and the Windows Mutation. That would mesh with the HEATs Natural and Science origins while leaving the Magic EAT open for the BotBS.

#1: Natural does not mean no super powers.

#2: If the power suit is integrated into your body, you're Tech. If you can take it off, and you made it, you're Tech. If you can take it off, and you didn't make it, you're Natural.

#3: There's wiggle room for various concepts. If you feel a certain Origin is most appropriate for your character, you're right.

WARNING: I bold names.

I have always used, as a general rule, the question "would they still be viable/dangerous without the toys". Iron Man is just a dude if you take him out of the armor, but Batman would still be a threat. SoA's have some nice tech at their disposal, but they are still highly trained soldiers, akin to Green Beret. Hence, Natural.