Trying to wrap my head around Soldiers being Natural instead of Tech


AkuTenshiiZero

 

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Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
I always though it odd that both VEATs were Natural. If I was in charge, I would have made the Soldiers Tech and the Windows Mutation. That would mesh with the HEATs Natural and Science origins while leaving the Magic EAT open for the BotBS.
I wouldn't have, but then I've done the story arcs that clearly show the origins of the Banes and the Fortunatas. Of course, those arcs also show why having male Widows and female Spiders is a lil bizzare, but hey. Playability > Lore in this case.


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Altaholic

 

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Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly View Post
I think another key point for Tech origin is the question "Are my gadgets unique?" The tech used by the SoA are generic, in as much as they get mass-produced for Arachnos forces.

Similarly, the Iron Man suit is unique in that only Tony Stark has the know-how to make it. Batmans gadgets aren't unique in that way.
I have a hard time drawing that line properly sometimes. I had a Ninjas/FF and I could never decide whether the FF was unique enough to deserve to be the origin. Do you think FF generators are pretty normal in Paragon City?


 

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Originally Posted by Weatherby Goode View Post
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade View Post
Making the Widows Mutation is an interesting take on it. Technically you have to be born a mutant, but I think the concept is that Widows have the talent and the training brings it out right?

Interesting thought on that one.
I was thinking more about the Psychic powers, rather than the claw/stealth abilities.
I was talking about the psychic powers. Per the CoH universe all humans have some degree of natural psychic talent inborn, hense psychics being of the natural origin. At the same time, some psychics are mutants who have particularly powerful psychic powers.


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
Now the one that sort of stumps me is, and I may be wrong, but Widows are considered natural too I think. Considering a Widow can become a Fortunata with Telekentic and Psychic attacks it seems more like they'd be Mutants like Sister Psyche on the Hero side. Night Widows have less of these powers but even they have attacks available that do PSI damage. My guess here is like the Warshades and Peacebringers hero side they wanted BOTH to have the same origin so the Soldier origin won out since obviously they have no mutant powers.
Widow and Bane canidates are all psychics. The focus of their psi abilities is channeled either into future sense (windows/fortunata) or inwardly to reinforce the brainwashing (Bane spiders). They are naturally psychics. Their not mutants, they didn't get their psi powers from magic or science. The psi powers don't stem from technology.

Or another way to put it is this. Is Superman a mutant, science, tech, magic, or natural hero? He's a Natural, because every member of his race has the same abilities. If he was the only one from his race that could have them, he might be a mutant. If he relied on tech to do what he does he'd be tech. But he does them innately. It took training to control his abilities, but he has them naturally.

The natural origin doesn't preclude having powers. It just means everything that you do is something you could do naturally. Winged flight might be a mutant power for a human, but if your an alien who's race has winged flight then it's natural for you.


"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

 

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I'm going to give some brief bios for a few characters I roleplay in my gaming group or play in City of Heroes. These will demonstrate my views of the origins.

Natural
She's known as Moth. For ten years she's protected the earth. She first crash landed after events unknown. Known abilities are winged flight and the ability to control gravity to various effects. To earth's populations, she is a meta. She has powers above and beyond what normal people do. To Moth however these abilities are not superhuman. They are a natural part of her.

You see, Moth's people hail from a planet with extremely high gravity. In this environment, animals had to evolve differently to survive. And her race is evolved from a moth like insect. To survive, her people developed the ability to control gravity. For most of her race, it's instinctive. It's something that is always turned on. As long as her people are awake, they are reducing gravity by roughly 100 G's. The ability doesn't work while sleeping, and there's a deep rooted social conditioning and fear of sleeping with no one near them who's awake.

When Moth left her homeworld, she joined an intergalactic police force. There she trained long and hard. She learned to control her natural abilities. She is a Natural hero. An alien perhaps, but her abilities are not unusual.

Tech:
Cree hails from a jungle planet. Everyone from his planet has what earth considered super-human agility. They need it to survive. Villages are in the treetops, because the forest floor is too dangerous. They are a simple people who deliberately avoid galactic civilization and high technology. They know of it, and do some trading. But the people tend to distrust technology.

Cree however is different. He loves technology, and has a knack for building weapons. He traveled the universe for several years selling his services as a mercenary. This gave him the funds to work on inventions, and a chance to field test them. When he crashed on earth, Cree just continued his work.

While he has superhuman agility, Cree isn't a mutant or science experiment. His origin is Tech because that is what he deals in. Sure he's a skilled warrior, but if you take away his toys he's not that dangerous. Unless you fail to take his tools too.

Science:
Amy 'lost' Mason, also known as the black angel is a tragic soul. From the day she was born she was subjected to cruel experiments in genetic splicing. Now she is more animal then man. She once was human, but not any longer. She is a freak, a monster. She is also the first of a new race. Pray this fledgling race learns compassion.


"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton

Madam Enigma's History

 

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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy View Post
The Fantastic 4 like I said I don't care how their bodies mutated they did.
If I may nitpick, even Marvel doesn't classify them as Mutants. Cases like the Fantastic Four or Spider-Man, who all gained abilities as a result of their molecular structures being mutated by outside sources, are considered Mutates. Still human, but with post-natal altered genetics. Mutants, on the other hand, are not just born with various abilities, but actually born with a specific gene absent in non-Mutants. It's gotten to the point in the Marvel universe where Mutants are considered by many to be their own separate species. They're feared, hated, persecuted, and discriminated against because they're genetically not H.omo Sapiens. The Fantastic Four, on the other hand, don't have to deal with much of that partially due to the fact that they've made it clear that they were human before going into space, and that any other humans exposed to the same conditions as they would also have super powers.

TL;DR version: Even Marvel says that the Fantastic Four would be of a Science origin in CoH terms.

Now, you wanna talk about a convoluted origin? My Crab Spider started out as a low-ranking Freakshow member who joined Arachnos, underwent strenuous physical and mental training to become a Wolf Spider, was subjected to various scientific experiments and alterations in order to become a Crab Spider, then gradually replaced most of his organic body with advanced cybernetics and robotics. PLUS, he also makes use of a few magical artifacts!


Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."

 

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Originally Posted by Goliath Bird Eater View Post
Now, you wanna talk about a convoluted origin? My Crab Spider started out as a low-ranking Freakshow member who joined Arachnos, underwent strenuous physical and mental training to become a Wolf Spider, was subjected to various scientific experiments and alterations in order to become a Crab Spider, then gradually replaced most of his organic body with advanced cybernetics and robotics. PLUS, he also makes use of a few magical artifacts!
If he was freak enough to have powers then he'd be tech, otherwise he's natural. Magical Temp powers are not an origin. Crabs are still natural.

The cybernetic replacement later on is the interesting bit. Per banes and crabs it seems they're still natural. Anyone know what the official take on Tarantula Mistress/Queens is? They are natural as fortunatas then replace their whole body. If they are still natural, then that's pretty convincing your dude would be natural per cannon (but you are absolutely 100% free to run any how you want).

I also wonder about Burkeholder. But that's just one arm, not a lot of cybernetics.


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

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I think it's mostly about integration or how the tech functions without a trained pilot. Integration meaning that the character has the tech as part of him (I'd say scorp falls into this catagory given it seems his suit is tied to his neruology). As to functioning, most of the spider tech still works fairly well if you're just a random bunk when you start out with it as a Wolf or Widow. Admittedly when you hit the secondaries this kinda goes out the window a bit, but Banes and Night's both could still fall into naturals, but Crabs and Fortunatas, maybe not.


By the catapillars hooka you WILL smile!

 

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Here's my take on origins. It goes back to if they were left naked, how would they fare? (sorry about this small text)