City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Angels vs Demons

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-24 20:33 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebon3 View Post
I'll have to see if I can catch it, IMO the "qauntum locked" idea (IIRC) was pure genius and added an awesome twist to the story. It really did add to the creepiness of the whole thing, just imagine being locked in a room with just one of those guys, have to keep your eyes locked on it and knowing every time you closed them it was inching closer and closer.
Inched? That thing would move several feet in a blink!

 

Posted

Here's the logic behind Angel and Demon summoning.

Angels are typically servants of A Higher Power™, above all else. In fiction, when an angel aids a mortal, it's at the behest of said Higher Power™. You get a blessing, or a clue, or a cool sword, or something. You don't command Angels. On the "Divine Hierarchy", they outrank you.

Demons tend to associate with Mortals more, because Mortals can give them what they desire. Wanton destruction, souls, and a chance to take a break from Hell.

Angels don't have any reason to leave "Insert Location Here" unless they're fighting the legions of Hell. Even then, they're still utterly loyal to A Higher Power™. They would take you on as an ally, not a master. At most, you could justify it as an army of Guardian Angels.

Which, for an Archetype that starts off Neutral at best, is unlikely.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Yeah I'm going to agree with Wendy here. In general video game companies try to avoid any explicit mentions of real world religions. Fantasy worlds have their own made up theology but for worlds in a modern setting the easiest solution is simply to avoid all mention of theology. For example there aren't (as far as I can recall) any places of worship whatsoever in Paragon City .
nor are there supermarkets, fire stations, busses, malls, children...you get my drift. they do avoid stepping on any landmines, though in one mission, you fight the praetorain woodsman by using holy water to consecrate the bones of the dead that has been blessed"by one of paragon's many clergy" so they are somewhere.

 

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MtG angels could be summoned and ordered around in the books...in one the angel is forced to murder people until it becomes so corrupted it no longer is considered a creature of light and is not bound by its summons...not that I've read any MtG books...

 

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Demons have always been much more prominent in CoX. When the game was released there were a multitude of dark powers and character customization options, yet nothing resembling an angelic counterpart.

Personally I take it as proof that America is, indeed, the great Satan.

 

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I'd imagine the issue is that demons work as generic bad guys, wether your character is religious or not. but fighting angels would be problematic for some people (despite the fact that demons are, by abrahamic sources, angels who took to freelance work) and having angels as contacts might bother some people as an endorsement of religion. now there are player character angels out the wazoo, particularly after wings came ingame, but i can see the rational behind the hands off approach, even if id prefer they had some angels.

oh and there is one mention of angels ingame that i recall. the safeguard/mayhem character "fallen from grace" is said to be "once considered akin to the angels" before being captured and driven insane.

 

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I am highly disturbed by this thread.

Not ONE Dan Brown joke? I was going to make one, but I didn't do any research on the subject. Although making stuff up seems to have worked well.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
Demons have always been much more prominent in CoX. When the game was released there were a multitude of dark powers and character customization options, yet nothing resembling an angelic counterpart.
There are tons of angelic-type powers that can be used, and have been. I see slightly more demon characters than angels, granted, but angels are around. Fire Melee especially gets a lot of use, with that flaming sword, Invuln/Fire Tankers and Energy/Fire (or Fire/Fire) Blasters were numerous, as were other combos.

 

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Originally Posted by NightErrant View Post
Angels don't have any reason to leave "Insert Location Here" unless they're fighting the legions of Hell. Even then, they're still utterly loyal to A Higher Power™. They would take you on as an ally, not a master. At most, you could justify it as an army of Guardian Angels.

Which, for an Archetype that starts off Neutral at best, is unlikely.
Unless you MM was above them in the hierarchy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
Demons have always been much more prominent in CoX. When the game was released there were a multitude of dark powers and character customization options, yet nothing resembling an angelic counterpart.

Personally I take it as proof that America is, indeed, the great Satan.
You have to remember when it was released, it was City of Heroes. There was really no need for the designers to put in place forces on the side of good with all the heroes running around. All they had to do was come up with villain groups.

And America is not Satan, Primal's avatar is Satan...

 

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Not true. My avatar is merely the representation of Satan. An...avatar...of

...Oh ****.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphael View Post
Personally I take it as proof that America is, indeed, the great Satan.
Devouring souls with pride since 1776! Or maybe it was 1792 at the corner of Broadway and Wall Street?


------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------

 

Posted

Instead of angels make a Kheldia MM Powerpool.
Tier 1 Pet: 2 Dark Novas + Bright Nova
Tier 2 Pet: 2 Void Stalkers
Tier 3 Pet: Bright Dwarf

LvL 18 Power: Quantum Flight

A lot of flexibility there.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
MtG angels could be summoned and ordered around in the books...in one the angel is forced to murder people until it becomes so corrupted it no longer is considered a creature of light and is not bound by its summons...not that I've read any MtG books...
I see religious issues pursueing unfortunately. We already have enough ethical problems on our plate atm. (Not in-game; irl)

 

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Quote:
Primal should forgive us:

Not ONE Dan Brown joke?
I generally try to block out his existence from my memory.

My favorite review of "The Da Vinci Code" was my old roommate's, "THIS is what passes for a best-seller these days????"

Dec out.

 

Posted

Well I don't like The Idea of hearing Angels being added but then again it might work, well Demons Myths Predate the Bible and other Stuff like that. I am an Atheist and all but, I think the thing is alot of Player Come form other back grounds that aren't all Catholics and Christians. Now I no you think Highly of Angels as a master mind pet or for Controller, but Having both them in the game will be oh oh, Well my Idea if they are addedri is my idea is like this Maybe they not a Race of Angels as an Heavenly Servants. Maybe like a Alien race that look like a race of Angels, They could even be form a Celestial Dimension or maybe Energy beings that have Glowing Angel wings and have no real Human form or Something. I mean our good Buddies the Demon Summoners, Summon Demons not form hell, but form another Dimension call the Abyss and no sign of the Demons being Summon with a pentagram of the Devil. So it is Possible to Have Angels Summoning, as long it's not part of Any Religious background.

Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.

Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightErrant View Post
Here's the logic behind Angel and Demon summoning.

Angels are typically servants of A Higher Power™, above all else. In fiction, when an angel aids a mortal, it's at the behest of said Higher Power™. You get a blessing, or a clue, or a cool sword, or something. You don't command Angels. On the "Divine Hierarchy", they outrank you.

Demons tend to associate with Mortals more, because Mortals can give them what they desire. Wanton destruction, souls, and a chance to take a break from Hell.

Angels don't have any reason to leave "Insert Location Here" unless they're fighting the legions of Hell. Even then, they're still utterly loyal to A Higher Power™. They would take you on as an ally, not a master. At most, you could justify it as an army of Guardian Angels.

Which, for an Archetype that starts off Neutral at best, is unlikely.
This is probably one of the more convincing arguments I've seen here. True, we can write-away what we want, but the fact remains that angels in fiction have always had that as a precedent - they are servants of a usually-unnamed god who will help you and possibly even serve you at his behest. More often, however, angels will act as protagonists and commanders, and very rarely as servants. Precedent to the contrary does exist, but as with anything in this game, powersets need to account for the broadest possible pool of concepts.

Of course, this can be done just by giving us angels as summons and refraining from making power descriptions explain why the angels are helping and what the hierarchy is, allowing us to make up our own. Whether they serve us or we serve them is up to the character owner to decide.

And they don't have to be Christian, either. The angels, archangels and seraphyms in Heroes of Might and Magic actually belong to the named god of the Griffin Empire, the same god whose priests routinely call down holy fire to smite the unbelievers. That's in their unit descriptions, mind you. I'm not making it up. Speaking of which, the reraphyms are "red angels" who have traded the holy way of salvation and redemption for combat, their wings long since stained with THE BLOOD OF THEIR ENEMIES. I'm not making this up, people!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Very good discussion, for those who stayed on topic 8-).

In many beliefs, fiction or nonfiction, demons are fallen angels, and people can die and earn their wings and become angels themselves, then maybe fall and become a demon. If you are worried about angels and their correlation with the Bible, well most of what we know about demons comes from the Bible.

My view is that having angels will not promote religion any more than having demons. For those who are afraid of or offended by religion, explain the circle of thorns. Unless perhaps your ok with dark-evil religion and offended by religions of light-good. If so try not to be so easily offended, especially since it's just a game for fun and fantasy.

HAVE FUN! 8-)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymos View Post
Instead of angels make a Kheldia MM Powerpool.
Tier 1 Pet: 2 Dark Novas + Bright Nova
Tier 2 Pet: 2 Void Stalkers
Tier 3 Pet: Bright Dwarf

LvL 18 Power: Quantum Flight

A lot of flexibility there.
Also shows you have 0% understanding of Kheldian lore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Also shows you have 0% understanding of Kheldian lore.
I think I have about 10%

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
MtG angels could be summoned and ordered around in the books...in one the angel is forced to murder people until it becomes so corrupted it no longer is considered a creature of light and is not bound by its summons...not that I've read any MtG books...
Same now with D&D 4th Ed I think, angels has become sort of a catch-all for summoned entities.


------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------

 

Posted

Well you think about Didn't The Arc Angel Michael was an Warrior Angel and lead the Army of God or Something like that, So Angels can a MM group, the only Problem is MM are mostly a Villain Side class right now, See Angel fight on Villains Side is just not right.

Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.

Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post


Jesus is a Blaster.

Actually he's a Defender

 

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Heh, the funny thing about this is that Christianity seems to have mostly done this themselves when they converted pagans and literally demonized their old gods (some of whom I might imagine they were more willing to demonize than others, Lerajie doesn't exactly sound too nice), this seems to have led to the subconscious outlook in the Western world that demons are everywhere and exist in all religions, but angels only exist in one.

Personally, it might be nice to see some reference that there are forces of good in the game outside of heroes/PC heroes. To my understanding, the only good god in CoX lore canon is Ermeeth, the god who taught humanity magic and wanted to make humans equal to the gods. And it can be assumed he's been at least MIA since the end of the Mu Oranbegan war.
Oh, and Faathim the Kind too.
That brings up good cosmic forces in the CoX universe up to... Two.
Well if you all want to be technical, Demons are technically fallen / Disgraced Angels but that's just beating someones interpretation with a basball bat while another thinks it's a Shilleligh :P

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rymos View Post
I think I have about 10%
Void Stalkers are not Kheldians. They are Council affiliated mercs that hunt and kill Kheldians. Rather painfully, might I add; Quantum Array guns forcibly seperate the Kheldian/Nictus and human parts of Peacebringers and Warshades from one another, effectively destroying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

I dont recall seeing any Angel based heroes in the past.

remember this is a themed mmo. and while u may say demons isnt really a villainy thing more fantasy..its worked with CoT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Illuminatis View Post
Actually he's a Defender
This is more likely..considering jebus died and came back in 3 days due to self-rez. blasters dont get a rez power do they (?)

 

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Quote:
Dr_HR missed it:

I dont recall seeing any Angel based heroes in the past.
I saw a ton of player character angels the day after we were able to have wings.

If you mean outside the game, the JLA's Zauriel comes immediately to mind, and I'm sure there are others.

Dec out.