Why so much hate about the Mo Badges?
By
Angry_Angel,
Posted on: 2010-05-17 20:40 in Badges and Gladiators
Holey Necrosis, Batman!
My first (and so far only) Mo badge was for Lady Grey. Kinda funny, we ended up with only 5 players going into the Hami mish, yet, due to a great leader, we finished out with the Mo. It was a fun surprise. 
Got run Apex another time tonight to get the last badge I need for Mo...we used the glowies in the first mish, so I need to run one without.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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I haven't run across any AT or powerset that is excluded from this badge. If you are referring to the "not friendly to melee" argument, I actually completely disagree with that. I've run it successfully on almost an entirely melee team, but the reason that worked was that there was nobody holding or immobilizing BM in place. That means that when we moved out of the "blue death", she did too, and we hardly missed a beat and took her down.
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Originally Posted by Ashlocke
*In my opinion* conditions for a MoTF badge which remove the ability to use *ANY* primary, secondary and even pool powers is stupid and immediately makes it onto my "list of things I loathe".
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The funny thing is, that I have no idea what you are refering to. I have yet to run the two newer TFs (Tin Mage and Apex) and am aware that they have different Mo qualifications. The brunt of my post was directed at the bulk of MoTFs that already existed.|
Originally Posted by Master-Blade
I haven't run across any AT or powerset that is excluded from this badge. If you are referring to the "not friendly to melee" argument, I actually completely disagree with that. I've run it successfully on almost an entirely melee team, but the reason that worked was that there was nobody holding or immobilizing BM in place. That means that when we moved out of the "blue death", she did too, and we hardly missed a beat and took her down.
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To Clarify, the qualifications for those MoTFs that I am refering to is that you are not allowed to use certain powers from your primary, secondary, and pool sets. This is a super hero game, immersion is paramount *for me*. Every hero has a shtick, and arbitrarily saying that guy's shtick is fine, but this guy over here isn't is not ok *to me*.
I'm fine with locking out temp powers, but the core powers from any Hero should never be locked out especially because they aren't applied uniformly.
A final clarification, I am not trying to change anyone's opinion on whether they like or not like the way MoTFs work, I was simply giving *my* reason for why *I* dislike the bulk of them, take it for whatever it's worth, and with a grain of salt, yadda yadda. And in return, I won't change how I feel about them either unless they are changed in some meaningful way.
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I'm not understanding your POV even after you sorta explained it. Give an example? The only restriction on the previous "Master" formats (pre-Apex/Tin Mage) is that there are no deaths, and no temporary/veteran powers are permitted. There's no other requirement. All your core abilities (primary, secondary, pool powers, epic/ancillaries) remain in effect.|
Originally Posted by Ashlocke
To Clarify, the qualifications for those MoTFs that I am refering to is that you are not allowed to use certain powers from your primary, secondary, and pool sets. This is a super hero game, immersion is paramount *for me*. Every hero has a shtick, and arbitrarily saying that guy's shtick is fine, but this guy over here isn't is not ok *to me*.
I'm fine with locking out temp powers, but the core powers from any Hero should never be locked out especially because they aren't applied uniformly. |
(I mean, I get ticked off that I lose my vet power "Reveal", but woo, big freakin' deal.
It's not like I don't have the maps memorized by now!)
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The above snippet is what I say, with all due respect, is untrue.|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
All your core abilities (primary, secondary, pool powers, epic/ancillaries) remain in effect.
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You are in fact not able to use all of your primary, secondary and pool powers if they revolve around a character's death, whether it's a team buff, or a self rez, or an AoE attack requiring a team mate's corpse, etc, there are many powers that are simply not available to players that are perfectly valid for their play style.
In other games, death is seen as failure.
Here, it can and is a viable tactic for various play styles and their associated powers.
Barring selective folks from using powers that revolve around player deaths is what I am referring to.
In City of Heros, there are many viable tactics revolving around character death, everything from running into a spawn and using a tier 9 "nuke" as a blaster which *for me* results in a glorious death usually followed by a self rez which leads to mopping up any survivors.
Plus there are team powers that require someone to die in order to use them.
Etc. There are many more examples, these two should be enough of a springboard to get the gist.
All of the MoTFs prior to the two new ones require you to not be able to use all of the powers related to the above examples from Primaries, Secondaries and Pools.
Some characters get a self rez, some don't, do you think it's fair that character A gets to use all of his available powers while character B is prevented from using all of his? I don't.
I don't mind "difficult" challenges, what I do mind is arbitrarily putting unequal constraints on characters.
To reiterate, I don't mind temp and vet powers etc from not functioning, that is fine, my focus is on a character's core powers, that being, primary, secondary, and I feel pool powers fall into the category of core powers, although I can be flexible on pool powers falling into the restricted powers list.
Again, I am not here to change anyone's opinion on MoTFs, I am here expressing why *I* don't like them.
Edited for spelling and other boo boos.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
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See the following Upper Tier and APP powers:|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
I'm not understanding your POV even after you sorta explained it. Give an example? The only restriction on the previous "Master" formats (pre-Apex/Tin Mage) is that there are no deaths, and no temporary/veteran powers are permitted. There's no other requirement. All your core abilities (primary, secondary, pool powers, epic/ancillaries) remain in effect.
(I mean, I get ticked off that I lose my vet power "Reveal", but woo, big freakin' deal. It's not like I don't have the maps memorized by now!) |
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Ah.|
Originally Posted by Ashlocke
The above snippet is what I say, with all due respect, is untrue.
You are in fact not able to use all of your primary, secondary and pool powers if they revolve around a character's death, whether it's a team buff, or a self rez, or an AoE attack requiring a team mate's corpse, etc, there are many powers that are simply not available to players that are perfectly valid for their play style. In other games, death is seen as failure. Here, it can and is a viable tactic for various play styles and their associated powers. Barring selective folks from using powers that revolve around player deaths is what I am referring to. In City of Heros, there are many viable tactics revolving around character death, everything from running into a spawn and using a tier 9 "nuke" as a blaster which *for me* results in a glorious death usually followed by a self rez which leads to mopping up any survivors. Plus there are team powers that require someone to die in order to use them. Etc. There are many more examples, these two should be enough of a springboard to get the gist. All of the MoTFs prior to the two new ones require you to not be able to use all of the powers related to the above examples from Primaries, Secondaries and Pools. Some characters get a self rez, some don't, do you think it's fair that character A gets to use all of his available powers while character B is prevented from using all of his? I don't. I don't mind "difficult" challenges, what I do mind is arbitrarily putting unequal constraints on characters. To reiterate, I don't mind temp and vet powers etc from not functioning, that is fine, my focus is on a character's core powers, that being, primary, secondary, and I feel pool powers fall into the category of core powers, although I can be flexible on pool powers falling into the restricted powers list. Again, I am not here to change anyone's opinion on MoTFs, I am here expressing why *I* don't like them. Edited for spelling and other boo boos. |
Well, you're welcome to be unhappy then. Thanks for explaining, it didn't make sense until you spelled it out.
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Personally I LIKE the original Master TFs. They require thought, teamwork and it feels like an achievement when it comes off.
To me the new Masters (Apex/Tin) are just "run it enough and you'll get it". 18 team wipes? No problem. Shivs/nukes etc? Fine.
I appreciate that I may be in a minority but to me the new Masters are "Mo-lite".
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I understand some people in this game like to use character death as a "viable tactical maneuver" and obviously there's a subset of powers (such as those spelled out by Snow Globe) that make that possible. Also I can see where the no-death Master badges directly prohibit people from exercising those strategies.|
Originally Posted by Turgenev
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Well, you're welcome to be unhappy then. Thanks for explaining, it didn't make sense until you spelled it out. |
But seriously, we are currently only talking about 6 badges that require you to go (briefly) deathless during their respective TF/SFs. Most people I know who dislike the deathless Master runs usually dislike them because they think making sure they don't die is too hard/stressful for them. But this is honestly the first time I've ever seen anyone complain about them because they PREVENT you from using any death power tricks. YMMV of course.
I personally didn't really enjoy the successful Masters runs I've been on while I was doing them. But I did enjoy the rush of excitement and feelings of accomplishment I got AFTER I completed them. So to me I didn't really totally love them or hate them - I just saw them as yet other badges that had to be earned one way or another even if they were a bit more stressful than I liked.
Bottomline I would never advocate that the no-death Master badges be changed or made any "easier" regardless.
I might not like them too much, but they are perfectly valid as far as challenging badges go.
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"lite" as in "elite", not as in "light", surely. 
And if it matters that much to you to run it like that, there's nothing stopping you from gathering a band of like minded individuals and setting those conditions for that run.
I have a morbid curiosity in seeing how many would be able to finish a MoApex or a MoTin like that.
As for me, I think the new format is much more player and team friendly. Not only does it not discriminate against AT and powersets, it also encourages PuG. Anything that does that can only be good for a "dying", "old" game.
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I think the "deathless" Master badges and the newer Apex/Tin styled Master badges both have a place in this game. I like them both for different reasons. Ultimately I wouldn't mind if the Devs experimented with yet other different kinds of "Master" badges that involve other types of requirements. Who knows, maybe they'll even make a Master badge that requires you to die in a certain way to make folks like Ashlocke happier. |
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
As for me, I think the new format is much more player and team friendly. Not only does it not discriminate against AT and powersets, it also encourages PuG. Anything that does that can only be good for a "dying", "old" game.
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I think people groan at Mo Attempts more for the stress then because they hate the badge. no one wants to be the first person to die. as the TF goes on it gets more tense.
Not many people like that.
Throw in the fact that for a time you could set STF/ITF/whatever to -1 dif to get your easy Mo badge, something that was REALLY exploited for a while before it was fixed... and the value of a Mo badge vanished for a lot of people.
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Yes there was that time when many people technically "cheated" the Master badges with that -1 difficulty thing. But then again many people are now enjoying the Incarnate level shifts which have pretty much "legitimized" that exact simplification of earning those badges. Imagine just how relatively easy it'll be once many people are fully decked out in all the upcoming Incarnate abilities. |
Originally Posted by Sprite Fire
I think people groan at Mo Attempts more for the stress then because they hate the badge. no one wants to be the first person to die. as the TF goes on it gets more tense.
Not many people like that. Throw in the fact that for a time you could set STF/ITF/whatever to -1 dif to get your easy Mo badge, something that was REALLY exploited for a while before it was fixed... and the value of a Mo badge vanished for a lot of people. |
Frankly the deathless Master badges are simply not going be as "meaningful" in the future the same way my 1 billion HP Empath badge is not as "valuable" today as it was a few years ago when I earned it. Many badges are simply easier to get than they used to be for whatever reasons - I see no reason why the deathless Masters would be any different. *shrugs*
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I find people who use the word "Hate" in theyre titles or label people haters usually have some issues that need to be resolved.
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Master badges don't discriminate. Players who go for Master badges discriminate. On Freedom, we run regular "Master" runs where the only requisite is that you know your stuff. |
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit
I have a morbid curiosity in seeing how many would be able to finish a MoApex or a MoTin like that.
As for me, I think the new format is much more player and team friendly. Not only does it not discriminate against AT and powersets, it also encourages PuG. Anything that does that can only be good for a "dying", "old" game. |
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Personally, I don't have any special dislike of the "Master of" badges. However, I don't really enjoy Task Forces to begin with, and rarely join them. On two occasions, I've been in a group when the leader decided "hey, let's do a Master of run." In both cases, I pointed out that they'd be better off with another player, and left the group. Since I rarely do TFs, I don't know them inside and out. In fact, other than the ITF, it's pretty likely that if I'm running one for the first or second time. So it's a near certainty that I'm going to get killed. If the team even jokingly wants to do a Master Of run, then the best thing I can do to ensure their success is leave. I don't like TFs, but I'm not out to ruin the game for other people.
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It wouldn't be so bad if the self-rez and rez-other powers (that I didn't list) had uses or could be activated while alive. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand some people in this game like to use character death as a "viable tactical maneuver" and obviously there's a subset of powers (such as those spelled out by Snow Globe) that make that possible. Also I can see where the no-death Master badges directly prohibit people from exercising those strategies.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But this is honestly the first time I've ever seen anyone complain about them because they PREVENT you from using any death power tricks. YMMV of course.
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I know, right! I hate people who do that! |
Originally Posted by capnkangaroo
I find people who use the word "Hate" in theyre titles or label people haters usually have some issues that need to be resolved.
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The only thing I find vaguely silly about attempting a no-death type Master run is that if it happens to fail (because someone gets killed) it'd be nice if the "no temp power" restriction could be lifted for the rest of the run. It's a very minor annoyance to be sure, but if everyone decides to finish the run despite the failure then why should we still have to put up with the "no temps" restriction?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
It wouldn't be so bad if the self-rez and rez-other powers (that I didn't list) had uses or could be activated while alive.
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Obviously I have no real expectations that this'll be changed and I'm not seriously suggesting that it should be. But I honestly think this is a more annoying consequence of Master runs than the one Ashlocke is worried about. Frankly I can easily tolerate not being able to use any "tactical death" tricks during the relatively tiny amount of time I run Master runs.
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Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
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(goes to look for an old one to bump)
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Turg Fiction: Ghost in the Machine Acts III & IV coming 2012!
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