Aauuggh, the cotnroller forums are on fire! Stop, drop, and roll!
By
Carnifax_NA,
Posted on: 2010-05-17 18:20 in Controllers
i actually dont really care for fire control too much, and i think plant control is much stronger than fire
The amazing thing is that of six Fire control threads, only one was for Fire/Kin.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Maybe people have just realized that the mitigation threshold necessary to cruise through the game gets lower and lower due to IO's shoring up the value. At which point damage is the most desirable trait to seek.
In other words, I can make a fire/x troller tough enough to handle pretty much anything in the game, but I will never make an ice troller do anywhere near the damage that fire does.
Either that or forest fire season is kicking off and it is being reflected on the boards.
I think the forums are just in a rut. The controller forum has it pretty bad, but its all the forums. The fact that the last X threads are mostly fire control is entirely secondary to the fact that in most of the forums, you'll see the same 8 threads plink along for a week or two with no new activity. Check again in a week and it will be 8 different stagnant threads creeping around. But whatever the stagnant thread list consists of, it is almost certain to have the same plinky moving threads for several days before the stagnation gets replaced by something else equally stagnant.
I keep hoping someone will start some /TA threads, but I don't really know what I'd say about them other than 'love'. But still. I guess I'm saying I don't have a solution to the stagnation. 
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Maybe people have just realized that the mitigation threshold necessary to cruise through the game gets lower and lower due to IO's shoring up the value. At which point damage is the most desirable trait to seek.
In other words, I can make a fire/x troller tough enough to handle pretty much anything in the game, but I will never make an ice troller do anywhere near the damage that fire does. Either that or forest fire season is kicking off and it is being reflected on the boards. |
Pretty much this.
Although it'll be interesting to see if the incarnate-level game yanks the difficulty up. Even making creatures live a bit longer would add a lot of hazard to a lot of sets as they are currently being built.
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How about you keep your nerfing suggestions to yourself, the last thing that the devs need is more encouragement to nerf more sets... see instead of the fixing of popular power being to nerf them, perhaps they should look at making other sets more attractive.... |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I was going to use this as a step stool for suggesting a nerf to Fire
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MOAR Carrot LESS stick please !!
Oh, and less daft suggestions like this from the OP...
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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^ This is one of the silliest posts I've seen here in a while.|
Originally Posted by Donna_
How about you keep your nerfing suggestions to yourself, the last thing that the devs need is more encouragement to nerf more sets... see instead of the fixing of popular power being to nerf them, perhaps they should look at making other sets more attractive....
MOAR Carrot LESS stick please !! Oh, and less daft suggestions like this from the OP... |
I did notice the plethora of Fire/Rad posts over the last few days. It is rather odd when you consider they could have just been rolled into one really.
I'm playing a Plant/Emp at the moment myself but don't really have any questions about them (other than why seeds is so out of line compared to other secondary mezzes, but if I ask that Castle will spot it through his crystal ball and immediately nerf it to spite me, apparently).
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Perhaps you would like to explain your infinite wisdom.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
^ This is one of the silliest posts I've seen here in a while.
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Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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Historically there have been way more buffs to under performing sets than nerfs to overperforming ones.|
Originally Posted by Donna_
Perhaps you would like to explain your infinite wisdom.
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And both buffs and nerfs are necessary when balancing a game.
For example I fully expect Seeds to be brought into line with other "secondary" AOE mezzes at some point.
And when it does happen it'll likely have nothing to do with the fact that it was remarked on in the forums that it seemed out of line.
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So if no one really listens to forums suggestions then what is the point in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Historically there have been way more buffs to under performing sets than nerfs to overperforming ones.
And both buffs and nerfs are necessary when balancing a game. For example I fully expect Seeds to be brought into line with other "secondary" AOE mezzes at some point. And when it does happen it'll likely have nothing to do with the fact that it was remarked on in the forums that it seemed out of line. |
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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To talk amongst ourselves and avoid work.
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Originally Posted by Donna_
So if no one really listens to forums suggestions then what is the point in this thread.
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Well that's what I was doing...|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
To talk amongst ourselves and avoid work.
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and I just think that the mentality of "something is popular, NERF IT !" is silly... people play this game because they want "superpowered toons" not mediocre toons that were once super and got beaten with the bat.
City of Mediocre Costumed Hasbeens, somehow isn't quite as appealing...
p.s. - I know this example is a bit dramatic, but you get the jist of what i'm saying.
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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Often something is popular because it's out of whack in some way (see Shield Charge for scrappers, that is massively popular at the moment because the buff it got was actually a developer error).|
Originally Posted by Donna_
Well that's what I was doing...
and I just think that the mentality of "something is popular, NERF IT !" is silly... people play this game because they want "superpowered toons" not mediocre toons that were once super and got beaten with the bat. City of Mediocre Costumed Hasbeens, somehow isn't quite as appealing... p.s. - I know this example is a bit dramatic, but you get the jist of what i'm saying. |
Note that I don't think Fire Control per say falls into that bracket though, although when combined with other factors it can become so. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it though but I've always been of the opinion that at the start there was a big error giving Controllers Kinetics and Radiation Emission. Not much the devs can do about that now though really (and it's easy to make such judgments in hindsight of course)
I would like Castle to have another look at his own baby though, Trick Arrow really needs some more attention, as does Grav (in both cases tweaking the animation times really doesn't cut it).
Ice Control could also use another pass IMO, at least pull the -knockback from the holds.*
Yea I agree with that.. 
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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I'm not so sure that expectation is fully grounded in reality though. Seeds is an amazing power and plant overall is a very good control set.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
For example I fully expect Seeds to be brought into line with other "secondary" AOE mezzes at some point.
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However, if you look at seeds you have:
60 degree arc
50' range
60 sec recharge
acc 1
15.6 endurance
The duration is debatable, but irrelevant as confuses always last longer than "hard" mezzes, similar to sleeps in that regard
There might be some question as to what power it lines up to against in other sets to which I believe stalagmites/flashfire is probably the best answer. It is basically your goto aoe mez.
Stalagmites:
25' radius taoe
70' range
90 sec recharge
10.4 endurance (but I believe this is a mistake, so we'll just say 15.6 which flashfire uses)
acc 0.8
Ok so what that means is I can hit a enemy that is up to 95' away with stalagmites if they have a friend that is 70' away from me. That is well out of detection range and because it is a taoe it requires next to no skill to use. This is especially important if I decide to use the power in the middle of a fight I just click and everything is affected.
On the other hand, seeds puts you into detection range and I've seen many plant trollers/doms faceplant as a result. The maximum distance an enemy can be from me and be affected is 50' because that is the edge of the cone. That is basically half the range of stalagmites in actual use. The 60 degree arc is nice, but it means mobs need to already be reasonably gathered for it to hit them all. Granted at the very limit of the range it has a slightly wider berth than stalagmites (50ft diameter vs 57.7ft width).
Honestly, if they change seeds so that it is a 70ft range, taoe with 25ft radius and 90 rech, it would sort of be a change for change's sake imo. You'd be trading frequency and risk for much greater ease of use and elimination of risk.
Now if they want to sit down and reevaluate confuses in their entirety that would be a different story. But I'd personally hope they have a huge list of fish to fry before getting to that stage. And if they don't then something is wrong with their prioritization.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'm not so sure that expectation is fully grounded in reality though. Seeds is an amazing power and plant overall is a very good control set.
However, if you look at seeds you have: 60 degree arc 50' range 60 sec recharge acc 1 15.6 endurance The duration is debatable, but irrelevant as confuses always last longer than "hard" mezzes, similar to sleeps in that regard There might be some question as to what power it lines up to against in other sets to which I believe stalagmites/flashfire is probably the best answer. It is basically your goto aoe mez. Stalagmites: 25' radius taoe 70' range 90 sec recharge 10.4 endurance (but I believe this is a mistake, so we'll just say 15.6 which flashfire uses) acc 0.8 Ok so what that means is I can hit a enemy that is up to 95' away with stalagmites if they have a friend that is 70' away from me. That is well out of detection range and because it is a taoe it requires next to no skill to use. This is especially important if I decide to use the power in the middle of a fight I just click and everything is affected. On the other hand, seeds puts you into detection range and I've seen many plant trollers/doms faceplant as a result. The maximum distance an enemy can be from me and be affected is 50' because that is the edge of the cone. That is basically half the range of stalagmites in actual use. The 60 degree arc is nice, but it means mobs need to already be reasonably gathered for it to hit them all. Granted at the very limit of the range it has a slightly wider berth than stalagmites (50ft diameter vs 57.7ft width). Honestly, if they change seeds so that it is a 70ft range, taoe with 25ft radius and 90 rech, it would sort of be a change for change's sake imo. You'd be trading frequency and risk for much greater ease of use and elimination of risk. Now if they want to sit down and reevaluate confuses in their entirety that would be a different story. But I'd personally hope they have a huge list of fish to fry before getting to that stage. And if they don't then something is wrong with their prioritization. |
Detection isn't as much of an issue though, you have teamies to help deal with that (they run in as you trigger it), and even soloing I've never had an issue with it.
The recharge is the thing which seems most out whack. It's easily perma. It just seems plain wrong to have it recharging quicker than say Ice Patch. Seeds not only makes you safe compared to Ice Patch but it does a decent amount of damage for you as well (even bearing the XP penalty in mind. Plant is well built in terms of minimising that)
The only change I'd make is the recharge, it should be equal to Wormhole, Flashfire, Stalagmites and the Fall-down Patches really. At the same time Fly Traps AI could do with some tweaking. I know she's a plant but still.
Grav needs work before that though and I wasn't really enthused that when Castle mentioned it it was just animation times he said were being looked at.*
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The detection range may not matter to you or me, but it is there and a consideration in the actual balance of the power. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Detection isn't as much of an issue though, you have teamies to help deal with that (they run in as you trigger it), and even soloing I've never had an issue with it.
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| The recharge is the thing which seems most out whack. It's easily perma. It just seems plain wrong to have it recharging quicker than say Ice Patch. Seeds not only makes you safe compared to Ice Patch but it does a decent amount of damage for you as well (even bearing the XP penalty in mind. Plant is well built in terms of minimising that) |
The other half of the equation is the duration, which as already mentioned, confuses are designed to last longer. The devs may have evaluated the relative power of confuse incorrectly, but that isn't a problem that is singular to seeds, but rather would require looking at every confuse power.
In comparison to icepatch the patch has the ability to continually affect new targets without resolving another power application. Basically if you miss them the first time with seeds you have to wait for it to cycle, whereas something can wander onto the icepatch after it has initially been cast and now be affected. Conversely, things can wander off to, but the power is designed to prevent that except under certain special conditions.
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| The only change I'd make is the recharge, it should be equal to Wormhole, Flashfire, Stalagmites and the Fall-down Patches really. At the same time Fly Traps AI could do with some tweaking. I know she's a plant but still. |
I think the only easy to address culprit in plant is probably the aoe immob.
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| Grav needs work before that though and I wasn't really enthused that when Castle mentioned it it was just animation times he said were being looked at.* |
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
The detection range may not matter to you or me, but it is there and a consideration in the actual balance of the power.
If you up the rech to 90 on seeds the devs will be faced with a very strong argument to turn it into a taoe of which all the powers like icepatch, quake, flashfire, stalages... are. This isnt' the first example of cone powers having faster recharge than taoe powers, it is part of the design principles of the game. The other half of the equation is the duration, which as already mentioned, confuses are designed to last longer. The devs may have evaluated the relative power of confuse incorrectly, but that isn't a problem that is singular to seeds, but rather would require looking at every confuse power. In comparison to icepatch the patch has the ability to continually effect new targets without resolving another power application. Basically if you miss them the first time with seeds you have to wait for it to cycle, whereas something can wander onto the icepatch after it has initially been cast and now be affected. Conversely, things can wander off to, but the power is designed to prevent that except under certain special conditions. Like I said, taoe vs cone. It is what it is. It is fine by me if they want to change seeds into a taoe and up it to 90 sec rech. Such a change will have a minor impact in the early game and actually make the set easier to use in late game. I think the only easy to address culprit in plant is probably the aoe immob. Well if BaB's cuts the animation times enough it will revitalize the set quite a bit, but yeah I tend to agree it probably needs more than that. Much faster GD, Propel, and WH would be ok with me though. They could all stand to be basically cut in half. |
The AOE Immob is a weird one. Was the damage set so high to combat the -XP aspects of Confused mobs I wonder, or just an oversight? At the time Confuses had a bad rep in terms of "Stop wasting our XP" from some players.
tbh I think it was just an entry error. It is the only immob that does two damage types.
I'm guessing:
a/ they wanted it to do two damage types and just transposed the values from another aoe immob without a second thought because they do such low/negligible damage.
b/ it is supposed to only be one damage type and someone just put a second entry in there without really noticing.
I think if it was intended to do double damage it would probably be 3 ticks of 6.12 damage, rather than 3x3.06+3x3.06
Then again, who knows. I think the only scenario it really matters is on plant/kin when they are solo/small team. For all other possible troller/dom plant users it is pretty much negligible damage compared to what everyone else is doing including /kin in a large team. I mean 18.4 damage over 5.2 seconds (troller value) ranks it as one of the lowest "damage" aoe's in the game. I think it is safe to say that like the other aoe immobs "damage" isn't the role the devs see it doing. And I think that is accurate outside of the one scenario I highlighted above.
In other words, they could fix it to fix it, but it isn't going to change anything except annoy a few plant users. It has so little impact that imo it would be fine if they just labeled it a "feature" rather than not wai. But in terms of changing things in plant, it would be the easiest and fastest.
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Grin. I made some pretty quirky posts last night which probably made some people red in the face, and mad as heck at me....have not revisited that posting, and not sure I am going to, but, getting red in the face and hatin' is the opposite of stagnation so I guess I did my part |
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I think the forums are just in a rut.
But still. I guess I'm saying I don't have a solution to the stagnation. Lewis |
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
I agree with Frosticus. I think that Seeds of Confusion is balanced just fine, taking the set as a whole into consideration. There are sets that have more overall control, and sets with more damage overall. Plant is perhaps better than most prior to level 20, but after that it is in line. Also, in the late levels, it may be a bit weaker, in that the foes I'm most worried about and scared of generally in the late game seem to resist confusion.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Basically if the confusion fails or you miss them (pretty easy with it being a short range cone), you are pretty much without a paddle. At least compared to other control heavy sets like earth, or mind. In fact it might fall apart faster than even fire in that situation.
From a control viewpoint:
cinders > vines (casts 3x faster)
bonfire > Carrion Creepers*
hotfeet > spore burst
*No I'm not saying bonfire is a better power than CC, not by a long shot, just that if your control is falling apart it will tend to make more of an impact than CC. CC from a holistic viewpoint is one of the better powers out there imo. If CC didn't negate its own kb/kd I'd give it the nod.
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Originally Posted by Donna_
How about you keep your nerfing suggestions to yourself, the last thing that the devs need is more encouragement to nerf more sets... see instead of the fixing of popular power being to nerf them, perhaps they should look at making other sets more attractive....
MOAR Carrot LESS stick please !! Oh, and less daft suggestions like this from the OP... |
Are you an idiot or just simply lacking in reading comprehension abilities? If you'd read the ENTIRE POST, you would have seen that I conceded that such a discussion would have no merit..
AND THAT THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT OOPMA LOOMPAS, you thread-derailing jerk-head!
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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This pretty much sums it up. Nerf bat! Swing, batter, batter!
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
Maybe people have just realized that the mitigation threshold necessary to cruise through the game gets lower and lower due to IO's shoring up the value. At which point damage is the most desirable trait to seek.
In other words, I can make a fire/x troller tough enough to handle pretty much anything in the game, but I will never make an ice troller do anywhere near the damage that fire does. Either that or forest fire season is kicking off and it is being reflected on the boards. |
Someone call the fire department already, sheesh!
I was going to use this as a step stool for suggesting a nerf to Fire/, as that's all people seem to play (and only because it does the most damage), but i figured such a suggestion wouldn't be productive at all.
Therefore, this thread is now about equal worker's rights for Oompa Loompas. Discuss.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)