new archetypes

Make a new archetype for heroes and villians wanting certian defensive and offensive powers, just use some of the scrapper and stalkers secondary sets,( i think heroes should hide too) and with the scrapping primary power set limit the use as a secondary and use it as a halfway secondary defensive with only stuns,knockdowns,slows and knockback etc.
You could call heroes Crusaders(like Batman)for heroes and Vandals for villians or whateveryou want its your game lol. Its time for ranged defensive sets.kind of like the crab powers.

The problem with this is that you risk it becoming a Tank-Mage (and yes, I am aware that SoA tend to be this way as it is). When you pair medium- to high-damage output at range with decent self defenses, you can quickly become an AT that doesn't need any other AT to do anything.

TankMage! XD

However I mostly agree with Eiko on the Assault (or Manipulation)/Defense AT. Lower the numbers on the defenses -slightly- and it'd be good and balanced! Though the Tankmagery thing isn't about AT Balance, it's about gameplay balance. The ATs are inherently imbalanced. They're designed not to be the same homogeneous level of simplicity. But a straight Ranged/Defense AT would, in fact, be overpowered when it comes to fighting enemies, making the game a cakewalk, and ruining the fun inherent to challenge.

So yes. I'd love to see a nice, fun, Assault or Manipulation/Defense AT. No. I don't want to see a Blast/Defense AT.

That said. the AT suggested here (Melee/Defense with Control sprinkled in) is incredibly underwhelming. The player would die. Often. Repeatedly. Without much defense an AT that dishes out it's damage in melee is going to have problems. Tossing in a few stuns or KB effects isn't going to be enough to save them. Dominators focus on control with a secondary utilizing ranged damage with a few melee attacks.

-Rachel-

From Eiko:

We're not even discussing the main topic, are we..?

Again. The powersets would have to be incredibly well designed to take into account the higher than average damage of melee attacks, especially from Bosses and Lieutenants, before the AT would be plausible.

-Rachel-

Enemies do more damage in melee than at range.

This is the rule. there are a handful of exceptions. But Enemies dish out more damage in melee than they do at Range. Players do not always follow this rule. Enemies also tend to have more melee attacks than ranged attacks, and generally aren't shy to use Ranged attacks while in Melee.

So 22.5% damage resistance at range is more useful than 22.5% damage resistance in melee. Due not only to the lower damage per attack, but also the number of attacks being thrown off in an attack chain.

DPS is mostly irrelevant when the defensive utility of Range is added on to Defensive Sets. Defensive Sets are given to characters in melee to protect them against the higher damage melee attacks -and- the longer attack chains coming at them.

If a Blaster can "Kite" enemies from range and destroy them without dying, the AT you're suggesting would do the blaster's job better. Not more effectively, but better, by being able to avoid death far better than blasters who already do it through maneuvering and careful consideration.

If an enemy in Melee is throwing off an attack that does 100 points of damage and the player has 22.5% damage resistance, the player only takes 77.5 points of damage. An Enemy throwing off a ranged attack will generally do only 70-80% of their ranged attack damage. Assuming they deal 80 damage, the player takes 62 points. In melee enemies can throw off their ranged attacks interchangeably with their melee attacks, too!

Maybe if I say it enough times people will understand it...

-Rachel-

15%-20% defense isn't a defensive set, either.

A Super Reflexes scrapper can have 29.25 defense (Ranged, Melee, AoE) without dipping into IOs or Pools outside of Elude and have damage resistance to fall back on, when low on health. With Elude they softcap their Defense without issue.

An Invulnerable Scrapper can have a standing Damage Resistance of 45% to Smashing/Lethal just on SOs. Plus extra hit points/healing at a click and Defense/Accuracy bonuses if enemies are in melee. With Unstoppable up they cap their damage resistance easily.

These are the two sets I think best exemplify Defense and Damage Resistance powers, respectively. Add in the ability to avoid half or more of an enemy's attacks and you've got a scrapper who takes even less damage. Lower their hit points? It'll help, some, to be sure. But it won't solve all the balance issues the AT would have against the NPCs in this game. And you'd have to keep them from taking Regen, since without all those luscious HP regen rate boosts would be nearly useless as a survival tactic.

-Rachel-

You want it Alphabetically?

Fifth Column Soldiers: Sure the base minions may have ONLY ranged attacks, but when an enemy has both melee and ranged attacks it invariably is safer to get out of melee. The "Fist" branch of each enemy tier, Mek Men Energy fists, Night Wolves, Wolfpack Robots, and Krieger Kicks, for example.

Arachnoids are terrors in melee range. Especially the Super Arachnoids. At range they do far less damage.

From the Wolf Spider Tac Ops and Blood Widows all the way up to Bane Spiders and Night Widows, Arachnos is lethal in melee. Arachnobots with their flaming, toxic, or merely slashing claws... Heck! Even Crab spiders do more damage with their arm lash attacks than with their energy blasts or leg-bullets!

Axis America only really has one unit with melee attacks, But the Unteroffizer without a shadow of a doubt deals more damage with it's kicks than it's Incendiary ammo.

The Banished Pantheon only has a handful of melee attacks mixed in with musketfire. But those Clubs and Tomahawks do dish out some mean damage. Not nearly as much as the Avalanche Shaman's Tremor, or the Totem's Arm Smash for sure! But more damage than the muskets.

Bat'Zul's minions really only ever have their single bite attack, but it does more smashing damage than their firey spit, to be sure.

The Cabal are best known as one ofthe few enemy types that uses flight and ranged attacks effectively! But for those who've ever closed on them, even the minions have Storm Strike and the LTs also have Charged brawl, both of which do more damage than Lightning Bolt.

I guess the Cage Consortium would be your example of "Turning it on it's ear" by being an exception... But even in their case quantity of melee and ranged attacks means they dish out more total damage in melee than at ranged.

Them and maybe the Cap Au Gremlins? Though, again, Charged Brawl and their Suicide Explosion are both -melee- ranged abilities, even if they don't do as much damage as the ranged attack.

The Carnies are a fun group for this. Everyone remembers them for their psychic, fire, and energy damage. But the Harlequin Fencers are a great example of higher melee damage per hit. Then again so are all the ranks of Strongman, and Seneschals hit harder when swinging their fiery torches. The ring Mistresses are another example of an enemy type -without- melee attacks. Not even brawl!

Do I -really- need to go through this with the Cimeroran Traitors? Pilum: Nice Damage. Sword: Awesome Damage. Even the Immunes Engineer has "Push Back" a melee Extreme damage power.

Now the Circle of Thorns pretty much puts this maxim on it's ear! Except for the Thorn Wielders, Spectral Demons, and Behemoths. Oh! And the Hordeling Berserkers.Oh... And Ruin Mages, too. since the only two melee attacks they have do far more damage than their single target hold Or immob. Unless you want to include the Circle Mage "Kamikaze" attack. In which case -all- of them do more damage in melee than at range.

For the Civic Squad *snickers* Max Action tears people up in melee, being a Martial Artist. Though those two shuriken attacks sure are -fierce- am I right? Though Eletrixie's only melee effects are Thunderclap and Thunderous Blast... Which I freely admit is a MELEE AoE.

Clockwork: Charged Brawl does nearly twice the damage of charged bolts, split between smashing and energy. Every unit has it. The Princes also have a "Pummel" attack which does more damage than Charged Brawl does. In Melee they hit harder than at range.

Contaminated: Their attacks actually do LESS than similar attacks from same-level enemies. But since they're limited to the tutorial it's understandable... Though, still, "Pipe" does more damage than "Throw rock"

Corallax, with their Coral clubs, Heavy Brawls, Coral Smashes, Haymakers, Coral hammers, Stunning blows, and Heavy Stunning Blows -WHALLOP- enemies in melee, while at range they tend to fling urchins and other lower damage attacks.

The Council are a Reskinned 5th Column.

Council Empire are the same as the Axis America with the addition of a boss-level enemy in the "Archons". their Missle Launchers do a -lot- of damage, but their Eagle Claw hedges it out... Especially combined with Crane kick, Thunder Kick, Crippling Axe kick, and Dragon's Tail, all of which can be used with the Missle Launcher in melee, but not at range.

Crazed. Their Axes, knives, and baseball bats all do more damage in melee than their revolver shots. The LTs have no melee attacks outside of "Brawl" but the Bosses have Haymaker which trumps their SMG in damage, by far.

And then we get into Crey... From the lowliest Riot Guard with his Stunning Baton, Brawl, and Pistol attacks to the most powerful Paragon Protectors, Melee damage rules in Crey! Even the Radiologists and medics have Brawl, their only attack power, Geneticists, too. I guess the Research Assistants do better damage at range with their sleep attack..? No? Okay. The Researchers and Scientists -actually- do more damage at range! But still have Brawl helping to fill out attack "Chains" in melee, so they do more damage (total) in melee than at range... The vigilants, infiltrators, and Tanks all have great melee attacks and puny ranged ones, though the Chief Cryo and Plasma Scientists are exceptions... Public Relations have their Crane kicks which hurt more than their pistols... The Crisis units, Juggernauts, and Eliminators do more damage with their ranged attacks... So they're exceptions. But they do more Damage per Second in melee, with interchangeable melee and ranged attacks. Sharpshooters are better at range, but the Crey Protector and the second tier of Tanks are better in melee. ALL The Paragon Protectors dish out better melee damage than ranged with their claw or energy attacks, fire melee, dark melee, or spines. Even the Scorpionoids dish out more damage in their energy melee attacks than they do with their tail-blasts. The Burn Protector -almost- fails to hold up the maxim, until it turns into a Demon, though even before that quantity of attacks means melee is more dangerous than ranged. And the Shining Light's Thunderstrike quickly trumps it's Lightning Bolt and Charged Bolt attacks.

Devouring Earth. Do I -really- need to go into this one? Their melee is far more deadly than their range.

Dockworkers... Overall the group is more melee-oriented and dishes out impeccable melee damage.

Dopplegangers don't really work in a comparison, generally speaking, since they have player rather than set powers.

And I think that's where I'll stop. I never got into the Family, the Rikti, Redcaps, Legacy Chain, Outcasts, Trolls, Slag Golems, Igneous, Shivans... In fact I went through less than a third of the enemy groups in the game, in alphabetical order. The point is: With Few exceptions enemies with both melee attacks -and- ranged attacks dish out more damage with their melee attacks and, without exception, dish out more damage in melee since they use both melee and ranged attacks in melee.

If you want to get into the "AoE Attacks Argument" I generally count AoE as either Melee AoE or Ranged AoE. And almost without exception melee AoE does more damage than ranged AoE, but both do less damage then melee or ranged attacks, respectively.

-Rachel-

Balance always is key, and I think they could balance this AT out so that it is playable, and so that people don't always make this class. I like the idea of being able to mix and match, obviously within limits, and since this is a superhero game, we should be able to make up heroes that match those we love in comics. Tanks are my fav, I always ***** about damage, mostly to myself, lol, but I still love em. Controllers, meh, Defenders, am learning, scrappers, the same, blasters, in that same category. Having said that, I have one of each that I play. It's all up to choice. Oh, and I never make Warshades or Kheldians, just think they are meh, but there are people that love them. Point is, make a class, not everyone will gravitate towards it. The Devs responsibility is to balance it.