Another thing I think people are missing about a Ranged/Defense AT.
Using the example I came up with...
Damage Wise: The DPS would be lower than a Blasters, so right there people are going to get more damage out of a Blaster/Scrapper than what I suggested on how to make it.
Health: Let's go with the REALLY low hit points of a MM (instead of the second lowest...which is lower than a blasters, and the one I think works best for the idea)...that will make you extremely squishy even with defense/resists/heals...just ask Stalkers 
And after both those facts, you're still going to see players who do this (and alot of them most likely)...
*RUN INTO MELEE! FIREBALL TO FACE! STAY IN MELEE! BLAZE TO FACE!*
We see it already with Blasters
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Frankly, the whole melee versus range arguement only holds any water at all if the Enemy isnt trying to get within melee range. Which, if they have melee attacks, they invariably do. Just to pick Council/5th, they do a LOT of damage at range, and those that have less ranged attacks, the wolves, will, without fail, head into melee. Due to being nigh un-lockdownable, they tend to make it, too.
'But you'll be at range' is only ever true if you use hover/fly. And, even then, Sky Raiders? Longbow? Goldbrickers? Not to mention ranged -fly abilities.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Frankly, the whole melee versus range arguement only holds any water at all if the Enemy isnt trying to get within melee range. Which, if they have melee attacks, they invariably do. Just to pick Council/5th, they do a LOT of damage at range, and those that have less ranged attacks, the wolves, will, without fail, head into melee. Due to being nigh un-lockdownable, they tend to make it, too.
'But you'll be at range' is only ever true if you use hover/fly. And, even then, Sky Raiders? Longbow? Goldbrickers? Not to mention ranged -fly abilities. |
Sure, against Cims the hover and attack method works well when stacked with alot of defense, but even then...I haven't found it nearly as great on Blasters, as I have on Debuff toons. And with that, only Cims have been the best for that.
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Nah, if you're going to propose crap HP for this AT, you might as well just toss the idea in the garbage. Seriously, it's bad enough the resist sets are sub-par on Stalkers, but on this new ranged/def AT, sets like Regen and Electric Armor will be practically useless.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Health: Let's go with the REALLY low hit points of a MM (instead of the second lowest...which is lower than a blasters, and the one I think works best for the idea)...that will make you extremely squishy even with defense/resists/heals...just ask Stalkers |
If nothing else, this AT should have Stalker/Blaster HP/cap. For damage, I'd suggest replacing Build up with a more debuff-y power for when the enemy gets in melee. Basically, I think this AT should probably not be a 'burst damage' AT and more on utility...Oh, and it'd be awesome if this AT gets a tuned down nova tier 9 that does less dmg, recharges a bit faster and causes no crash.
As for the list, Steampunkette, I understand already that melee attacks generally hit harder on a good deal of enemies. The argument I was making was there is no 'melee resist' or 'ranged resist'. Whatever you resist no matter what position will react equally to stats. You can't put this situation in a vacuum and expect it to be universally applicable.
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I don't think the Defender Base Hit Points is like 200 less that Stalkers, and caps at that same amount. It's not really that big of a change.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Nah, if you're going to propose crap HP for this AT, you might as well just toss the idea in the garbage. Seriously, it's bad enough the resist sets are sub-par on Stalkers, but on this new ranged/def AT, sets like Regen and Electric Armor will be practically useless.
If nothing else, this AT should have Stalker/Blaster HP/cap. For damage, I'd suggest replacing Build up with a more debuff-y power for when the enemy gets in melee. Basically, I think this AT should probably not be a 'burst damage' AT and more on utility...Oh, and it'd be awesome if this AT gets a tuned down nova tier 9 that does less dmg, recharges a bit faster and causes no crash. As for the list, Steampunkette, I understand already that melee attacks generally hit harder on a good deal of enemies. The argument I was making was there is no 'melee resist' or 'ranged resist'. Whatever you resist no matter what position will react equally to stats. You can't put this situation in a vacuum and expect it to be universally applicable. |
Not all sets have a buildup. But giving those with a Build Up somethingother than a build up, to possibly lower the damage difference between Blasters and a Ranged/Defense AT may not be a bad idea.
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This AGAIN?!
A ranged/defense AT keeps getting brought up. When someone says tank-mage, VEATS are invariably brought up as an example of exactly what is being asked for that already exists.
If what you're being asked for already exists, why are you asking for it? It's already there, play it. All you need now is a villain at level 20 to play one.
"But I don't like being an Arachnos pawn!"
Oh well. What you're asking for is pretty much what a VEAT already is, but you want the same thing in an entirely different AT.
If I said "I want to have tank level defenses, but I don't want to tank" what kind of response would I get? Probably along the lines of: "Tanks already exist, you're not going to get another AT that does the same thing just because you don't like the fact that your teammates expect you to take agro and you don't want to"
And yet asking for a ranged/defense AT when VEATS already exist is somehow different......
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Here's the difference:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And yet asking for a ranged/defense AT when VEATS already exist is somehow different......
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With a Tanker, you have lots of options. Several different defence sets. Several different offence sets. Fire/Fire is vastly different from Stone/Stone, which are both very different from WP/SS. But all are Tankers.
With VEATs, you are locked into choices. One of your costumes has to look like an Arachnos uniform. You are limited to a single selection of claws (for Widows) or a scant three selections of assault rifle (for SoAs). You are forced into a power selection of Claws/SR or AR/SR.
You are limited to a mere five options for a character - A Widow (the distinction between Blood and Night is virtually nil), a Fortunata, a Bane Spider, a Crab Spider, or the completely unintended but viable Huntsman build.
VEATs cannot be Dual Pistols/SR (probably the most requested, and most represented, example of ranged/defence in media). They cannot be Fire Blast/Fiery Aura. They cannot be Ice Blast/Stone Armour. They cannot be Archery/Ninjitsu.
VEATs are not a replacement for the Ranged/Defence AT. They are an example that the concept is not inherently broken.
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Quick question for you: |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
VEATs are not a replacement for the Ranged/Defence AT. They are an example that the concept is not inherently broken.
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What is the tradeoff for the ridiculous survivability of Granite Armor?
I'll even answer that question, the tradeoff is your movement is extremely hindered and your powers recharge slower.
A character in Granite Armor who has ranged attacks is not losing much for that survivability. Who cares if you can't catch that guy if you can hit him from where you are standing? Congratulations, you just nullified the thing that Granite trades for it's almost overpowered survival ability.
My point here is that the defense sets being suggested are balanced for melee characters.
All the sets that include damage auras, damage boost auras, defense boost auras, regen boost auras, stun and fear auras are designed to spend most or all of their time in melee.
We can agree that an Invulnerability character of ANY AT has more survivability when surrounded by enemies, right? The same is true of Willpower and Dark Armor.
If those sets are at their best when there are a lot of targets in melee range.....why do you want to give them to an AT who would function best at range?
An Invuln character can hit the softcap fairly easily when surrounded by enemies, so it would be in your best interest to keep yourself surrounded as often as possible. If you're constantly surrounded by enemies.....why do you need ranged attacks again?
Sure, some of the sets would transition well, like SR and Regen. But those two would probably be overpowered if given to a ranged AT.
You can ALREADY softcap a blaster to ranged attacks....imagine that same ability paired with Regen. Not only do you get a better end recovery power than Stamina at level 4, you get 2 healing powers and an insane regen boost. You get mez protection to deal with the 1 or 2 mezzes that will get past your defense. You get the ability to be pretty much invincible for 15 seconds at a time. Tell me, how would a ranged character that has all that EVER be in any danger of dying at all? If you hoverblasted you would be nearly unkillable with 45% ranged defense. The only thing that would stand a chance of killing you would be something that could one shot you, or several things getting very lucky simultaneously.
And that's not even taking PvP into account. Regen is pretty much the scrapper and stalker secondary of choice in PvP, and that's on ATs with very little ranged ability. Imagine a Fire Blast/Regeneration character, best of both worlds, nearly unkillable with one of the most damaging ranged sets in the game. No, that wouldn't be broken at all.
Why do I bring up PvP? Because it's part of the game, like it or not. You can't look at an AT possibility without looking at the ENTIRE game. So far, everyone who has brought up the ranged/defense AT idea has completely ignored how overpowered something like this would be in PvP. I can guarantee the devs will NOT overlook it.
Has it occurred to anyone that VEATS are balanced precisely BECAUSE they are so limited?
In 6 years of the game's existence, the only ranged/defense AT in existence is extremely limited in both power choice and concept. In 6 years of a game who's developers have displayed more willingness to take their players suggestions than any other MMO, we have exactly ONE AT that can do what you're asking, and you don't have a whole lot of choice as to how you do it.
I can't help but think there's a valid reason for that. Tabula Rasa did pretty much everything the players asked them to do. Let's log on there and see how that worked out for them. Oh, wait......guess we can't do that, huh?
Just because YOU don't see a reason not to do something doesn't mean that reason does not exist. Especially if it's a reason not to do something you want done, of course you're going to be blind to that.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'll grant you, I probably wouldn't give Stone Armour to this AT. That was a bad example. Scrappers and Stalkers don't get Stone Armour; their sets would be far more reasonable choices for the new AT.
One problem, however, with everyone that argues against this is that they keep bringing up Blasters. A balanced Ranged/Defence AT wouldn't have Blaster damage values. Would a Regen/Electric Blast Defender be grossly overpowered? Or grossly underpowered, because of the weakness of Defender blasts?
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To quote Samuel Tow; Go to Hell.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Just because YOU don't see a reason not to do something doesn't mean that reason does not exist. Especially if it's a reason not to do something you want done, of course you're going to be blind to that. |
Balance and non-bugginess is something I always take into consideration when thinking about ideas, wether they are my suggestion or not. If its a really damn silly suggestion usually a facepalm and a 'No, this wont work. End of.' will suffice.
Here though is pretty much the one missing 'concept gap' of City of Heroes.
Yes, porting over stone armour would be broken. Response? Dont GIVE them it. Stalkers and Scrappers dont get it already, so leave it as a Tank and Brute set.
Regen might cause problems? Simple answer, leave it out. Yes, that limits a few concepts, but then again Brutes dont get regen either. They DO get Willpower, which is a fair stand in for it.
No one (in their right mind) who has asked for a Ranged-Assault/Armour AT has EVER suggested putting Blaster level damage in the primary. Thats silly. Corruptor level, maybe, or more likely EAT, possibly Defender. Or heck, one of the melee ATs; whatever it takes to balance the damage.
The exact same goes for defence numbers; whatever modifier scale make it balanced. Heck, im sure the Devs could even, shock horror, make a new scale for a new AT, to help make it balanced.
The concept is sound. Possible powersets are already there. It just needs numbers that can balance it out. And that is by no means impossible.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No one said, they couldn't leave out certain Defense Sets.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
-post deleted-
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And you said it yourself...the INV is better off fighting in melee, for survival purposes...wouldn't this mean you can look at it as...
If range really is a defense (it's not) then the BLAST/INV would beable to use range as a defense untill the enemy got into melee, and then have defense in melee, but be doing less damage than a Blaster or Scrapper! :O
You know. I'd totally be willing to stay with VEATS as the Ranged/Defense AT, let's get power customization in there then, so I can have different attacks other than PSI or CLAWS.
It's about more concepts, if you can't see that, you're not trying. Odd, Claws, tell me if I remember correctly, werent you the one saying port all the sets to Scrappers, and let the PLAYER decide if it fit the concept of their Scrapper?
Because it's the same thing, with make a new AT. It gives people their concept of a hero/villain.
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Everyone keeps saying a tank-mage is something with Tank defenses and Blaster damage.
That isn't what a tank-mage is.
A tank-mage is a character that can do everything well, and has no real weaknesses.
Fight at range? Check.
Fight in melee? Well, there's no penalty for using ranged attacks in melee, so yes to that as well. Definite yes if Assault sets are used.
Debuff enemies? Depending on the blast set, yes.
Tank in a pinch? Yes, Willpower and Invuln would probably be pretty good at it.
Control? Dark Blast/Dark Armor would have a crap ton of control, and other sets have some as well. I'd imagine they'd probably give some in Epic pools too.
Immunity to most mez, including knockback? Yep.
That would make a character that could do most of the things the other ATs can do. In other words, a character that is good at everything, and has no real weaknesses. A tank-mage by definition.
Unless this AT is given a crippling deficiency somewhere it would end up being the best AT to play by a significant margin. Every other AT has something it cannot do, this one really has no downside to it at all.
Powergamers would flock to this AT in droves as soon as they realized that it can do all the things their tweaked out characters can do, and do a lot of them better.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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But then you would have the posts by players screaming for X powerset because their super-duper concept and they are being limited. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
No one said, they couldn't leave out certain Defense Sets.
... It's about more concepts, if you can't see that, you're not trying. |
Why not ice armor if you have ice blast or fire/fire or en/EA or arch/nin or DP/SR, etc.? Those sets are very different and how would they be balanced when mixed or when slotted out with various IO sets?
The devs have to look at the whole game, which is what Claws is getting at. You make this AT weak, and no one would play it except for concept. Too strong, and nerfs will follow (with all the fun forum posts). I agree it is possible to figure out the numbers, but I would venture that to fit the whole game now and with what the devs have planned in the future like End Game has to be factored in.
We don't know if there will be ice or regen brutes or nin scrappers and so forth. It is not as easy to say "just don't give it to them", as mentioned above.
And Techbot's post scared me a little to hear "whatever it takes" or just make a new scale. I feel it is more complex then just throwing a few numbers around. Does SR, WP, Invul, EA, or Ice when scaled differently to "whatever it takes" work as intended? Or will one set shine and the rest be avoided for being "squishy".
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You just described my Bots/Traps MM.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
A tank-mage is a character that can do everything well, and has no real weaknesses.
Fight at range? Check. Fight in melee? Well, there's no penalty for using ranged attacks in melee, so yes to that as well. Definite yes if Assault sets are used. Debuff enemies? Depending on the blast set, yes. Tank in a pinch? Yes, Willpower and Invuln would probably be pretty good at it. Control? Dark Blast/Dark Armor would have a crap ton of control, and other sets have some as well. I'd imagine they'd probably give some in Epic pools too. Immunity to most mez, including knockback? Yep. |
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Fight at Range. Dark/Sonic Defender.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Everyone keeps saying a tank-mage is something with Tank defenses and Blaster damage.
That isn't what a tank-mage is. A tank-mage is a character that can do everything well, and has no real weaknesses. Fight at range? Check. Fight in melee? Well, there's no penalty for using ranged attacks in melee, so yes to that as well. Definite yes if Assault sets are used. Debuff enemies? Depending on the blast set, yes. Tank in a pinch? Yes, Willpower and Invuln would probably be pretty good at it. Control? Dark Blast/Dark Armor would have a crap ton of control, and other sets have some as well. I'd imagine they'd probably give some in Epic pools too. Immunity to most mez, including knockback? Yep. That would make a character that could do most of the things the other ATs can do. In other words, a character that is good at everything, and has no real weaknesses. A tank-mage by definition. Unless this AT is given a crippling deficiency somewhere it would end up being the best AT to play by a significant margin. Every other AT has something it cannot do, this one really has no downside to it at all. Powergamers would flock to this AT in droves as soon as they realized that it can do all the things their tweaked out characters can do, and do a lot of them better. |
Fight in Melee. Dark/Sonic Defender.
Debuff enemies. Dark/Sonic Defender.
Tank in a pinch. Seeing as how the Range/Defense AT would lack Taunt, I don't know if I'd call it tanking. But Alpha Taker? Dark/Sonic Defender.
Control. Dark/Sonic Defender.
Immunity to Mez. Does the fact that the Dark/Sonic hardly ever gets hit = immunity to mez?
Eiko already pointed out the Bots/Traps MM.
Let's look at a few others shall we
SS/Dark/Soul Brute! Meets all those requirements! And you can do other pairings like this for Melee oriented ATs with a range power in their offensive set when paired with Epic powers!
VEATS!
HEATS!
Illusion Controllers with Psi Epic!
Ummm...yes. All things that can be done with the other ATs!
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Stone doesn't have a Ranged set to go with it. But admittedly, I'm okay with the mix matching of sets for concepts, but I don't like the idea of not having a corresponding set to go with it either.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
But then you would have the posts by players screaming for X powerset because their super-duper concept and they are being limited.
Why not ice armor if you have ice blast or fire/fire or en/EA or arch/nin or DP/SR, etc.? Those sets are very different and how would they be balanced when mixed or when slotted out with various IO sets? The devs have to look at the whole game, which is what Claws is getting at. You make this AT weak, and no one would play it except for concept. Too strong, and nerfs will follow (with all the fun forum posts). I agree it is possible to figure out the numbers, but I would venture that to fit the whole game now and with what the devs have planned in the future like End Game has to be factored in. We don't know if there will be ice or regen brutes or nin scrappers and so forth. It is not as easy to say "just don't give it to them", as mentioned above. And Techbot's post scared me a little to hear "whatever it takes" or just make a new scale. I feel it is more complex then just throwing a few numbers around. Does SR, WP, Invul, EA, or Ice when scaled differently to "whatever it takes" work as intended? Or will one set shine and the rest be avoided for being "squishy". |
So untill they make a Ranged Earth set, I wouldn't be amiss to seeing it not on the list of Defense sets.
Also, they've talked about changing Granite as well. If I recall correctly they said if they were to buff the other armors in the Stone Armor set, they'd have to tone down Granite Armor.
Though with it's penalities, remember with that also comes -DMG and -RCH.
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Not sure what you are getting at with stone. If anything, since we have earth assault now, I wonder how long will it be before the earth blast set request will be posted - just like the ones for a dark assault which may be a mix of DM and DB. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Stone doesn't have a Ranged set to go with it. But admittedly, I'm okay with the mix matching of sets for concepts, but I don't like the idea of not having a corresponding set to go with it either.
So untill they make a Ranged Earth set, I wouldn't be amiss to seeing it not on the list of Defense sets. Also, they've talked about changing Granite as well. If I recall correctly they said if they were to buff the other armors in the Stone Armor set, they'd have to tone down Granite Armor. Though with it's penalities, remember with that also comes -DMG and -RCH. |
All in all, I was trying to point out you mentioned concept and there are players that want powersets for their concept and particular sets ported over because they don't want to be limited.
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You're right. And really I didn't think about one fact, that the sets can be changed upon the creation of this AT. Who says the Stone Armor version of a Ranged/Defense AT has to have granite to begin with?
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Not sure what you are getting at with stone. If anything, since we have earth assault now, I wonder how long will it be before the earth blast set request will be posted - just like the ones for a dark assault which may be a mix of DM and DB.
All in all, I was trying to point out you mentioned concept and there are players that want powersets for their concept and particular sets ported over because they don't want to be limited. |
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The BrandX Collection
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Almost Assuredly: The Devs.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
You're right. And really I didn't think about one fact, that the sets can be changed upon the creation of this AT. Who says the Stone Armor version of a Ranged/Defense AT has to have granite to begin with?
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Unless you suggest taking out or revamping -all- the Tier 9 defensive powers, Granite Armor will wind up landing pretty much as-is in such an AT. If it doesn't there'll be a veritable poo-storm unless it's the "New" version of Granite Castle may or may not be putting out.
Segue from there into the fact that the -speed (while not accomplishing much beyond player frustration) is considered "Thematic" for a power that mimics DE Boulders who routinely run almost as fast as my characters... And the Devs will almost definitely keep it into the set for the thematic purpose of the -speed effect.
Which I think sucks.
-Rachel-
Edit: Oh! Unless there is no Stone Armor set for this AT.... Seeing as how it's not currently a Stalker set (the proposed defensive base of the AT) it might not be an issue at all!
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Actually, I don't see a reason to remove the Tier 9s of either the blast sets or the defense sets.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Almost Assuredly: The Devs.
Unless you suggest taking out or revamping -all- the Tier 9 defensive powers, Granite Armor will wind up landing pretty much as-is in such an AT. If it doesn't there'll be a veritable poo-storm unless it's the "New" version of Granite Castle may or may not be putting out. Segue from there into the fact that the -speed (while not accomplishing much beyond player frustration) is considered "Thematic" for a power that mimics DE Boulders who routinely run almost as fast as my characters... And the Devs will almost definitely keep it into the set for the thematic purpose of the -speed effect. Which I think sucks. -Rachel- Edit: Oh! Unless there is no Stone Armor set for this AT.... Seeing as how it's not currently a Stalker set (the proposed defensive base of the AT) it might not be an issue at all! |
For one, then they're needed MOST (NOT ALL) will cause detoggling. They can also lower the amount of Resistance/Defense the tier 9s of the defense sets give if needed.
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The BrandX Collection
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There's another fact you're overlooking. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
You're right. And really I didn't think about one fact, that the sets can be changed upon the creation of this AT. Who says the Stone Armor version of a Ranged/Defense AT has to have granite to begin with?
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In CoH Beta you were allowed to take any power you wanted to, and everyone ended up making ranged/defense characters. So, they came up with the AT system to stop people from playing overpowered characters and nothing BUT overpowered characters. I wasn't there myself, but I did some reading up on it. Overpowered characters, and completely gimped characters on the other end of the spectrum, were the reason the AT system exists now.
Concept is all well and good, I'm all for a good concept.
The problem I have with it is the line I keep hearing: "But they do it in comic books, why can't I do it here?"
Because this isn't a comic book. Comic books don't need to be balanced. Video games do. Especially ones played by many people at once, because someone will find a way to game the system in their favor.
Jack Emmert, the guy who originally came up with the AT system, left several years ago.
He said a lot of things were never going to happen that we have since seen happen. But no ranged/defense AT, at least not like people keep asking for.
If he was the one preventing a ranged/defense AT from happening, the current devs have had over 3 years to change their stance on it, and they haven't, which leads me to believe that the current devs have their own reasons to not give it to us. What those reasons are, I can't say. I may or may not have hit on some of them, and I hardly expect them to tell me if I did.
So, you can keep asking for a ranged/defense AT all you want, and if you get it, everyone here has the right to say "I told you so".
I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Alot has also changed since CoH Beta however.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There's another fact you're overlooking.
In CoH Beta you were allowed to take any power you wanted to, and everyone ended up making ranged/defense characters. So, they came up with the AT system to stop people from playing overpowered characters and nothing BUT overpowered characters. I wasn't there myself, but I did some reading up on it. Overpowered characters, and completely gimped characters on the other end of the spectrum, were the reason the AT system exists now. Concept is all well and good, I'm all for a good concept. The problem I have with it is the line I keep hearing: "But they do it in comic books, why can't I do it here?" Because this isn't a comic book. Comic books don't need to be balanced. Video games do. Especially ones played by many people at once, because someone will find a way to game the system in their favor. Jack Emmert, the guy who originally came up with the AT system, left several years ago. He said a lot of things were never going to happen that we have since seen happen. But no ranged/defense AT, at least not like people keep asking for. If he was the one preventing a ranged/defense AT from happening, the current devs have had over 3 years to change their stance on it, and they haven't, which leads me to believe that the current devs have their own reasons to not give it to us. What those reasons are, I can't say. I may or may not have hit on some of them, and I hardly expect them to tell me if I did. So, you can keep asking for a ranged/defense AT all you want, and if you get it, everyone here has the right to say "I told you so". I'm not going to hold my breath. |
And I think a lot of number tweaking can go along way in keeping the AT balanced.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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....Dayamn. Beaten at my own game! Well done |
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You just described my Bots/Traps MM.
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And yeah, Claws, your really not avoiding the fact that your treating all that as if the AT would be given blaster attack numbers and tanker defence numbers.
Of COURSE that would overpowered. Theres absolutely no avoiding that fact.
It's like trying to argue with a brick wall...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Where did I EVER say "Blaster offense with Tanker defense"? |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And yeah, Claws, your really not avoiding the fact that your treating all that as if the AT would be given blaster attack numbers and tanker defence numbers.
Of COURSE that would overpowered. Theres absolutely no avoiding that fact. It's like trying to argue with a brick wall... |
The only time I even mentioned that combination was when I was pointing out that that isn't what a tank-mage actually is.
I never mentioned any numbers on anything. I mentioned Fire Blast, but I said nothing about damage values. I mentioned Invulnerability, didn't say for what AT.
I was talking about the sets themselves, I never even brought up what modifier they would or wouldn't have.
Okay, say we give it defender damage numbers. Because everyone knows that defenders can't do damage. (We'll just ignore the ones that soloed GMs, they were clearly cheating because defenders can't do damage, right?)
And let's see....stalker numbers for defense, they're kinda squishy, right?
And here we'll just ignore the fact that stalker, scrapper, and brute defense base values are identical.
Seriously, go look, every single set that they all share has the exact same base values. Tanks get better numbers because it's their primary. I was actually assuming scrapper/stalker/brute numbers on the defenses, because they have it as a secondary, just like this mythical AT would. I can just HEAR the screaming if this AT was released with those sets having lower base values.
They can't lower resistance caps either, not if they want to keep it balanced. All but 3 ATs have the same resist cap: 75%. Only Tanks, Brutes, and Kheldians have higher caps (Tank/Brute = 90%, Kheld = 85%) If you drop it any further than 75% the tier 9s of resist sets become useless, since they wouldn't be doing much of anything at all. Imagine an Unstoppable that got you to the godly level of 65% S/L resistance, when you had 50% to begin with.
So how do you balance ranged AT damage sets with melee AT defense sets? The devs picked the absolute easiest way to balance it, by not allowing them to be combined.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
---List of stuff here deleted as to not make a huge post---
-Rachel-
But play it solo, with staying at range, and kiting makes for a WAY SLOWER gameing experience. And the truth is, hitting from range then running away and then returning is going to kill things slowly.
Kiting will speed THAT up, but your constant kiting slows down your damage just as much.
And I don't know if you've ever played a softcapped defense toon, but if not, you can still be defeated. I've done the hover blasting, and I've still found myself eating pavement from ranged attacks.
Of my squishy ranged toons that can usually take the punishment are the Dark Miasma and the Rads...why? Because besides having the OMG high defense (neither one is quit softcapped yet...with the Dark being the only one I have that will hit softcap)...they have the -DMG and -TOHIT debuffs going.
Now if your saying they can play at -1 or O enemy level. Well pffft, that's just easy mode to begin with.
I was soloing missions on unslotted Defenders before the damage buff at missions set for 0/0 It was slow, but I was surviving (95% of the time anyways).
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