How much inf. to make Fire/SD playable 1-50?
By
Athanatosis,
Posted on: 2010-05-11 07:33 in Scrappers
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It's really not.| Considering how END heavy the set combo is |
FM's dots are essentially free of charge. Additionally, Incinerate is one of the most efficient ST attacks for DPE.
Then look at Shield. AaO is basically an endurance buff when speaking about DPE. SC is yet another great DPE attack (of top on all its other advantages). Being defense based, Shield also avoids endurance drains.
FM/SD is high middle of the pack when it comes to endurance efficiency. It doesn't have true end management tools like Regen/WP/Elec/Fire, but it makes up for that with the advantages listed above.
So, to answer the original question : it takes 0 additional influence to make Fire/SD playable and enjoyable from level 1 to 50. Using SOs (or common IOs) will do just fine. I'd suggest investing in a steadfast +3 def and frankenslotting attacks, which is stuff you can do with the influence you gain from normal playing on your way to level 25-30 ; but adding miracle/numina/perf shifter uniques or going for +recovery bonuses would be extremely low priority on a leveling FM/SD for me.
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The +3% defense is fairly cheap and a great investment for shields I buy that 1st before I bought a miracle on a SD toon
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
It's really not.
FM's dots are essentially free of charge. Additionally, Incinerate is one of the most efficient ST attacks for DPE. Then look at Shield. AaO is basically an endurance buff when speaking about DPE. SC is yet another great DPE attack (of top on all its other advantages). Being defense based, Shield also avoids endurance drains. FM/SD is high middle of the pack when it comes to endurance efficiency. It doesn't have true end management tools like Regen/WP/Elec/Fire, but it makes up for that with the advantages listed above. So, to answer the original question : it takes 0 additional influence to make Fire/SD playable and enjoyable from level 1 to 50. Using SOs (or common IOs) will do just fine. I'd suggest investing in a steadfast +3 def and frankenslotting attacks, which is stuff you can do with the influence you gain from normal playing on your way to level 25-30 ; but adding miracle/numina/perf shifter uniques or going for +recovery bonuses would be extremely low priority on a leveling FM/SD for me. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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How much do SO's cost?
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Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Considering how END heavy the set combo is I want to know, as roughly as necessary, what sort of influence pool I should be looking at before I roll one if I want to make the leveling experience and smooth as enjoyable as it should be.
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Too much. I prefer level 25 common IOs (and then level appropriate commons as you rise above 22), cheaper over the long haul. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
How much do SO's cost?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's entirely deducible from your intention with Fire/SD. I've always strongly advocated people with numerous advice especially with Fire/SD. What is your purpose with it, whilst I see you simply wish to progress with it within normal game-play, I'd side with Frosticus:|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Considering how END heavy the set combo is I want to know, as roughly as necessary, what sort of influence pool I should be looking at before I roll one if I want to make the leveling experience and smooth as enjoyable as it should be.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
How much do SO's cost?
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Enjoy it, it's one crazy set.
Fury
As other have said not much, but I would also look in to the Kismet +Accuracy too.
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"- Chesty Puller US Marine Corps
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Roughly 240,000 inf per slot from 22 to 50. It does vary from type to type though. And you'll pay more if you don't let them expire.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
How much do SO's cost?
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Mine was playable with SOs and still a good scrapper. Sure I just shelled out a fortune on it but that's just because by e-mailing inf I found half a bil I didn't know I had so I added that to my budged and dropped manoeuvres instead. I was also really impatient on my shopping so ended up spending 1.1bil. I'd say for 400 mil you could easily soft cap it and in process bring the end cost of everything down. But if you're not worried about that just popping a purple before each fight and running on SO's works perfectly fine. Combining insps has meant more for my scrappers than for any other alt to me
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
Not that bad. As long as you don't mind using insps. Getting to 32% def with SO slotted powers is pretty easy. Then it's a purple per group and you are capped on each group
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I find that it's often cheaper to frankenslot than it is to use 25 common IOs.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Too much. I prefer level 25 common IOs (and then level appropriate commons as you rise above 22), cheaper over the long haul.
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Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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As the others say, it's very playable with just SOs.|
Originally Posted by Athanatosis
Considering how END heavy the set combo is I want to know, as roughly as necessary, what sort of influence pool I should be looking at before I roll one if I want to make the leveling experience and smooth as enjoyable as it should be.
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With a Steadfast Def/Res (3%) and tough/weave, it's very solid with just SOs (around 32ish percent to all three positions). It means that one small purple can close to soft cap you for hard fights, which means that it's very decent.
You can also cheaply IO it to a soft cap build for around 150-200M.
The build has a lot of upside so eventually players invest a considerable amount into a fire/shield because almost every incremental investment is noticeable. That doesn't mean that a mostly SO / common IO build is by any means bad.
How much inf you put into it depends entirely on the level of performance you want out of it. SO's will be playable... it won't be a monster but it'll be functional.
If you're wanting to soft cap then it'll get more expensive... I haven't really figured it but probably on the order of 200 million. End isn't really an issue; there's lots of bonuses you could snag to boost recovery and total endurance... I tend to like the Gift of the Ancients for this; it's relatively inexpensive, 4 of them ED caps your defense with good endred and it gives you 2% recovery and 1.8 points of endurance.
I certainly wouldn't worry about endurance though; my BS/SD, a much heavier end primary than Fire, has zero endurance issues and runs 7 toggles at all times. No Miracle or Numina uniques, simply 4 sets of Gift of the Ancients and the +end accolades. I'm good for about 10 minutes of constant farming of the Cimerora wall without ever popping a blue unless I forget to turn off Super Jump.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I'd guess even cheaper than 200 million to soft cap. I'm sitting at 43.1%/39.2%/42.9% defense on mine, and that's my leveling build, which is to say whatever cheap stuff I could slap in quickly on the influence I made while leveling. Picked up Combat Jumping, Weave and Maneuvers. Gaussian set in Tactics. Steadfast Protection unique. Multi strikes in Fire Sword Circle and Shield Charge. That's gotta be under 50 million so far. I suppose it gets more expensive after that, though. What would I add... Performance Shifter set in Stamina takes care of AoE. Touch of Death in some attack to take care of melee. A couple Mako's Bite sets to finish off Ranged? I suppose it adds up, but I doubt it would get to 200 million, and there might be cheaper ways to do it.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
To softcap, I'd say 250-300 million if you're impatient enough to pay the "I WANT IT NAO!!!" price for the sets.
Sometimes I'll do that if I need to fix a problem with my build that is hurting me, but I'll usually exercise some patience and try not to get reamed on prices.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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There's a common misconception amongst players that frankenslotting is cheap, if you want a basic, just above par-SO build then sure the IO's you will need for frankenslotting is cheap. However, good frankenslotted builds use the Tri/Quad enhancements out of each individual set which coincides with being the dearest IO of the set - excluding any good "Chance...". Then again, that's assuming Level 50: IO set frankenslots, I'd say Fire/SD is a bit too intricate to be frankenslotted efficiently. Either go with SO's or look to invest up to 200-300m for a good build, or quite literally break the bank to make an extreme Fire/SD - which personally are like gods.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
I find that it's often cheaper to frankenslot than it is to use 25 common IOs.
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Fury
My question is why would anyone play shield? My perception of defense based powers is that they are defenseless. I created a scrapper Broadsword/shield on test. The base level of defense in the firat 2 tier powers is no better than having the toggles drop on zoning and not even noticing it through the first couple fiights. Then I notice that brawl is not smacking with the shield. I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities?
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What you stated is the issue with scrapers early level your best mitigation is killing stuff early. You are approaching the fight incorrectly you should be relying on your inspiration and you are relying on the wrong ones green ones. In your early levels if you do turn on your armor you also need to eat those purple ones they add defense, orange ones are resistance eat that before you start a fight. In the early levels the best inspiration for a scrapper are red for more damage. Troller and Blaster play better at the lower levels what you have not done is hit SO with a scrapper everything changes at level 22.|
Originally Posted by Dafear
My question is why would anyone play shield? My perception of defense based powers is that they are defenseless. I created a scrapper Broadsword/shield on test. The base level of defense in the firat 2 tier powers is no better than having the toggles drop on zoning and not even noticing it through the first couple fiights. Then I notice that brawl is not smacking with the shield. I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities? |
Resistance sets are not much better half the time I run the 1st 10 levels and may never turn on an any of my powers other than a damage aura I do not slot any powers until at least DO and then just me damage and acc in my main attacks.
This is the catch 22 of scrappers they can not give us a lot of defense or resistance early because of the other end when you start to enhance them in late game it becomes over powered. I guess they could give all players more HP early and reduce the amount of HP you get from leveling and still end up with the same current total as we do now at level 50.
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
If you want to be resiliant from start play a sword set that's all, else you will have to wait more or less depending of your secondary set before being able to solo withotu realling to much on inspiration.
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If you want God Mode, you'll have to make sacrifices in terms of power pools. |
Originally Posted by Dafear
I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities? |
Your most important inspiration early is the purple. One will more or less double your defense (if you're running Deflection and Battle Agility). You also--with Broadsword--should be swinging Parry about as often as it is up. Stacked Parry basically caps your melee defense on a Shield. If you can't fight +1s, fight 0s/-1s. Once you have AoEs, fight as many as you can safely, for they bring more inspirations, which bring faster kills, etc.
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Are you REALLY judging an entire secondary based on trying out a couple Shield characters on the test system and playing through the first few levels on them?|
Originally Posted by Dafear
My question is why would anyone play shield? My perception of defense based powers is that they are defenseless. I created a scrapper Broadsword/shield on test. The base level of defense in the firat 2 tier powers is no better than having the toggles drop on zoning and not even noticing it through the first couple fiights. Then I notice that brawl is not smacking with the shield. I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities? |
OK, you're right. If you intend to only play the game to level 9, there's no reason to take Shield Defense.
On the other hand, if you want to play to 50, and are willing to take pool powers (I didn't realize that was a line in the sand that some people didn't want to cross), and particularly if you're willing to spend even half of the influence you're earning on making your character better, Shield Defense offers plenty of survivability plus greatly enhances your damage output.
So no, I'm not going to explain how to build a Shield Defense or Super Reflexes "on it's own merit". How you build it is you take pool powers and you spend some of that hard earned influence on occasion, like on the Steadfast Protection unique. That's also how you build ANY character. I can't even imagine that there are people playing this game without taking pool powers. But I suppose they must be out there, struggling, dying, burning out of endurance constantly, and wondering why their primary and secondary suck.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I'm not sure why you make an artificial delineation about pool powers. Do you not take fitness as well? For better or for worse, this game has been balanced around pools. It's why when defense/resistance sets were rebalanced (GDN), they also rebalanced powers like tough/weave. One of the trigger points for ED was 6-slotted hasten and 6-slotted stamina. Pools have *always* been accounted as part of game balance. |
Originally Posted by Dafear
My question is why would anyone play shield? My perception of defense based powers is that they are defenseless. I created a scrapper Broadsword/shield on test. The base level of defense in the firat 2 tier powers is no better than having the toggles drop on zoning and not even noticing it through the first couple fiights. Then I notice that brawl is not smacking with the shield. I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities? |
This isn't saying that a player must take certain pools (much like fitness isn't mandatory) but make no mistake that the devs certainly assume that many players will make certain choices.
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Let me guess, you've never teamed with a high level soft capped defense based character right? ALL defense sets struggle early; it's simply the nature of the way they work since defense becomes much more effective the closer you get to the 45% soft cap. Once they mature and top ~35% defense they become very effective. Once they approach 45% defense they become the strongest sets in the game. My BS/Shield Scrapper is tough enough to main tank the ITF AND it outputs immense amounts of damage... I'd think that may be a reason to play the set
Originally Posted by Dafear
My question is why would anyone play shield? My perception of defense based powers is that they are defenseless. I created a scrapper Broadsword/shield on test. The base level of defense in the firat 2 tier powers is no better than having the toggles drop on zoning and not even noticing it through the first couple fiights. Then I notice that brawl is not smacking with the shield. I constantly take damage from even level mobs. So much so I'm wearing out rest. Can't keep enough green inspirations on hand. When I fight +1 mobs I risk being defeated as finally happened at level 9. From what I'm reading here everyone's build for shields requires multiple power pool powers to make it work. Why isn't it capable of working on it's own merit. I also decided to try a axe/shield brute. The only advantage that has kept him from a defeat is his fury. It sure isn't the shield power.
So can someone explain how to build a shield/ super reflex/ninja reflex/or any other defense based power on it's own merit? Or is it as I long suspected a lot of God Mode utilities?
How can I phrase this politely... at level 9 you are GOING to have problems; your build isn't mature, you don't have Stamina, you don't deal as much damage and your protections aren't up to snuff yet. This is a problem that EVERY AT AND POWERSET IN THE GAME has at that level.
At level 9 you're correct; defensive sets are weak. At level 35 they can be among the strongest ones available. Still, if you're having problems with a BS/SD at level 9 facing +1 mobs then either you're doing something wrong or you're facing a lot of mobs like COT Spectrals and can't hit anything.
I don't care what you're playing, you are going to faceplant on occasion! When this happens pick yourself up, dust yourself off and give it another try, possibly with better tactics.
If all you're interested in is how a set performs in the first 9 levels then grab Regen... it's probably the best performer in the super low levels and it remains viable to the endgame. Weaker than Shield and SR in the end sure, but still perfectly functional.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
CMA sounds angry...
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I thought it came of more irritated
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
CMA sounds angry...
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Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Considering how END heavy the set combo is I want to know, as roughly as necessary, what sort of influence pool I should be looking at before I roll one if I want to make the leveling experience and smooth as enjoyable as it should be.