I was playing my Mercs just last night, and didn't notice them getting out of control. The medic had some issues, but then, he always does.
I noticed this was happening a lot on a bots MM last night. After the ranged attacks had fired, they would all immediately run into melee range. Commands to pull them back would not work as they would turn, run half way back and then as they wanted to attack again they would close into melee range again (pets in bodyguard mode).
I was having to set them to passive to call them back.
I'm not sure if this is something that has gotten worse as a result of DS coming along, as it's always been somewhat of an issue. I've thought for some time that there should be a way of telling the pets to stay and attack, ignoring melee powers and sticking to ranged only.
I've always felt that the pet AI has always been pretty poor and the job of the MM now is to micromanage every pets action, which in a team situation can be a pain as team members expect MM's to heal/buff them and ignoring their pets.
Yup, i17 broke them. They go into melee so much since i17.
i usually dont worry about my pets anyway, i know most of the AI is a little retarded, but i dont worry about pets in team setting because if my pets die they are easy to get back up and running, and a teammate who dies isnt as easy to get back up and running. if im running solo ill micromanage more, but not too much more than in a team setting (apply buffs to pets instead of team, and heal pets, but thats about it in solo setting)
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Off topic.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i usually dont worry about my pets anyway, i know most of the AI is a little retarded, but i dont worry about pets in team setting because if my pets die they are easy to get back up and running, and a teammate who dies isnt as easy to get back up and running. if im running solo ill micromanage more, but not too much more than in a team setting (apply buffs to pets instead of team, and heal pets, but thats about it in solo setting)
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no its not, i was stating that mm pets have pretty much always been retarded and ive been playing mm's for almost 4 years now and havent noticed them get better or worse|
Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Off topic.
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i was mentioning that how i play the mm, i try to not rely 100% on my pets and that the pets are there to assist me and be meatbags to absorb dmg for me
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Not if you actively taunt and spread pets around to mitigate AOE before i17. Now some just decide to run up to the enemy and Pew Pew in range of the AVs PBAOE
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
no its not, i was stating that mm pets have pretty much always been retarded and ive been playing mm's for almost 4 years now and havent noticed them get better or worse
i was mentioning that how i play the mm, i try to not rely 100% on my pets and that the pets are there to assist me and be meatbags to absorb dmg for me |
Yes, they run into melee range far too often. It's not just the merc pets though. Go attack a gunner mob. They used to (Pre-I17) stay out of melee range for the most part, only occasionally running up. Now (Post-I17) every one of them gets in your face right away. It seems that all ranged mobs, pet or not, have had their AI tweaked to run into melee range.
You're not seeing things. It HAS changed.
They so need to upgrade the AI in this game. "Tweaks" to the AI scripts aren't cutting. How hard is it really to add a "range preference" and a "melee preference" to the AI? And how long have MMs been asking for this? It would benefit the NPC AI too.
I haven't checked my MM but I did notice on my Brute today that Council seemed to like to run up and try to mug me. This makes my Brute happy but if my Bots are all running into melee it's going to tick me off.
Devs: please please upgrade the AI. Tweaks aren't cutting it. The limit has been reached.
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I would be SO happy to have this option. /sign
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
How hard is it really to add a "range preference" and a "melee preference" to the AI?
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Sorry I know this is a noob suggestion but have you tried using the /goto command to pull them back into range?
It was happening with my mercs too but this solved it for me, its annoying to have to use it everytime they move to melee though.
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The issue is that all ranged mobs are running into melee where they didn't before. Using goto is definitely an option, but they're only running partway back (as someone said earlier), then running right back into melee. Beside that, every second your pets are running to an assigned spot is a second you aren't doing any damage. The pets need to stay ranged if they are ranged, and vice versus. It was something of an issue before I17, but it's horrible now.
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Originally Posted by Sunstormer
Sorry I know this is a noob suggestion but have you tried using the /goto command to pull them back into range?
It was happening with my mercs too but this solved it for me, its annoying to have to use it everytime they move to melee though. |
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does not solve it. the ones who wanted to melee in the first place sometimes just try to run back.
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Originally Posted by Sunstormer
Sorry I know this is a noob suggestion but have you tried using the /goto command to pull them back into range?
It was happening with my mercs too but this solved it for me, its annoying to have to use it everytime they move to melee though. |
I have used the stay command, with passive, to get them to stop, and as soon as I turn it to defensive they run right back. Does the stay command actually do anything beyond what goto does?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
I... haven't noticed a difference.
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Well you have so many characters. I exclusively play my Mercs/Traps for many months.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I... haven't noticed a difference.
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No difference here either. Prot bots still retarded, running into melee when they have no melee attacks, but that's nothing new. Mercs don't seem to charge in unless they lose LoS on their target.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I... haven't noticed a difference.
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Observation about Mercs: untrue. Talk to Commando.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
No difference here either. Prot bots still retarded, running into melee when they have no melee attacks, but that's nothing new. Mercs don't seem to charge in unless they lose LoS on their target.
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Oh, the mercs charge in alright. Consistently. Pre-I17, sure, they'd stay back. Not anymore.
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Observation about Mercs: untrue. Talk to Commando.
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Originally Posted by Charke
Oh, the mercs charge in alright. Consistently. Pre-I17, sure, they'd stay back. Not anymore.
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With bots/ff, I tried the same thing. The bot followed the flying mob, and closed to melee, every single time. With more than one pet, one would stay back and one would close to melee - just like with demon summoning pets. The same applied to mercs, using mercs/traps or mercs/pain (though obviously no crowd control with /pain).|
Originally Posted by Emberly
I'm running missions right now on my mercs/ff, using Force Bubble to keep the mobs at range, and the mercs are not closing to melee. They are happy to sit by me and spew lead death. I've got them on defensive/follow and am not issuing any other orders to them at all.
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They are simply not reacting like they did pre-I17.
If I could keep my merc pets (on bodyguard mode, like you used) back like they did prior to I17, I would be happy. They will not stay back, and they get eaten alive. The one (with more than one pet) that stays back will close to melee once the initial one gets killed.
AI changed, it's as simple as that. Not for the better, in the case of ranged pets/mobs.
Here's another test: take ranged mm pets into a bank mission. The ranged pets will close with cars and such to destroy them, and get blown to bits the same way zombies/ninjas always have. Use a goto? They go, then close with the vehicles again. Mercs used to be one of the most fun archetypes to take on a solo bank mission for me, because I could have fun for ages in there. Not so anymore. With all the resummoning, it's just not fun.
Still doing testing - with mercs/pain, pets not upgraded, just using the lowest tier pets, I shot a mob. The mob fired back, and the pets, in bodyguard mode, fired one volley into the mob then they both rushed into melee range.
With pets upgraded, it was inconsistent. Occasionally both would close, sometimes one would close, but never did neither of them close (except of course when the initial volley killed the mob - nothing to close with).
If there are people (Emberly, for example) who are not having their pets close to melee range, I really want to get the the bottom of why. All of my new masterminds are plagued with this melee issue.
My 50 thugs/dark, incidentally, is behaving relatively normally with pets upgraded or not. Arsonist closes, bruiser closes, and occasionally one of the punks closes. The rest stay back.
My 35 mercs/pain, with pets upgraded or not, had my commando closing nearly all the time (as expected), the medic closing most of the time (expected again), and the other two soldiers closing about half the time. The spec ops didn't every close unless the mob closed with them.
In all, my higher level mm behaved reasonably well. The only problem there was that most ranged enemies closed instead of staying at range.
For the people who are noticing issues here, are the issues mostly with lower level mm? That seems to be the case for me. Even very old (a few years) toons that never really leveled up are having the issue with pets closing to melee when they are ranged pets.
Hmm, I haven't noticed a difference with my Ninjas. 
In all seriousness though, I did log onto my Mercenaries MM that I haven't played in a few months. While I can't say that it was specifically I17 when they were broken (Y'all who have played more consistently have been able to figure that out), they are definitely acting in the manner that has been mentioned. After one or two hits they seem to go into Get closer before I activate my next power mode and close in on whatever target they are attacking.
Favorite Hero: Computer (Empathy/Energy Blast Defender)
Favorite Villain: Gimp Computer (Fire Control/Psionic Assault Dominator)
This is indeed true. On my thugs and bots, both broken. I say broken instead of 'annoying' because they essentially are broken. It was ANNOYING before but could work around it. Now anything with an AOE absolutely owns me.
Suppose its time to roll a ninja mm XD
There seems to be a problem with Mercenaries Masterminds. Maybe the others; I don't have any other ranged-focused MMs to test with. Can some other Mercs players (or bots or thugs?) confirm this?
The pets are closing to melee range after 2-3 attacks. They ignore all pet commands like Stay or Goto or Follow, in favor of jogging right up to the enemy and following them around like glue. Issuing a new Goto or Stay works... until 1-2 attacks later, then they're back to following.
Mercs have to date be one of the best behaved sets for staying at range and shooting, without blitzing into melee. I never had problems with this before I17. It makes it very hard to play a mercs MM when they jog away from your FF Generator / suppress pain aura / right into the trick arrow gluetrap designed to keep enemies at bay and away from you.
Hope this gets fixed. Otherwise, my tricked out L50 Mercs/Traps is gonna have a really rough time with the upcoming endgame system.
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