What I'd Do To Rage
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-04-19 11:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Really, since when? I don't know if there's a source I've missed or something, but it seems like a very solid power to me |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
It's a given Super Strength's Rage is going to change,
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~union4lyfe~
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Well, IIRC, Castle did say back when the crash was changed a rather lengthy time ago that he'd look at it again, mostly to finally get rid of the Defense Debuff so that Rage stopped unfairly penalizing defense builds.
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Originally Posted by Duncan_Frost
Really, since when? I don't know if there's a source I've missed or something, but it seems like a very solid power to me
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What would you do to other perfectly fine powers?
SS is not op'd. The crash is the balance. It isnt like it is say... EM two years ago, where you couldnt toss a hellion without hitting an EM tanker...
Just what makes you think it needs changing ?
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Well, IIRC, Castle did say back when the crash was changed a rather lengthy time ago that he'd look at it again, mostly to finally get rid of the Defense Debuff so that Rage stopped unfairly penalizing defense builds.
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Some things will just never go with others. You are never going to see a great craze for Lutefisk with Neapolitan icecream. Instead of trying to fix things so people can't do stupid things, (Like take sets that just don't go together) It would be nice to just have maybe an advisory when you go to roll a character.
It could consist of rankings maybe something like this.
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AT PVP :*** PVE :***** Solo:***** Team:*** Primary: PVP :**** PVE :**** Solo:**** Team:**** Secondary: PVP :** PVE :***** Solo:**** Team:*** Warning: Combining Super Strength with Super Reflexes is not recommended |
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SS works fine with Defense sets!|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Well, IIRC, Castle did say back when the crash was changed a rather lengthy time ago that he'd look at it again, mostly to finally get rid of the Defense Debuff so that Rage stopped unfairly penalizing defense builds.
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If you stack Rage you avoid the -Defense crash and it's very easy to stack.
So in summary - there is no problem with Rage,it works well and is balanced due to the End crash and 10 second "no damage" period.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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Or how about the developers just (re)design things intelligently instead so that players can't do "stupid things" in the first place?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Some things will just never go with others. You are never going to see a great craze for Lutefisk with Neapolitan icecream. Instead of trying to fix things so people can't do stupid things, (Like take sets that just don't go together) It would be nice to just have maybe an advisory when you go to roll a character.
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And the fact that you can skip over the defense debuff sounds like another design flaw.
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Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Or how about the developers just (re)design things intelligently instead so that players can't do "stupid things" in the first place?
And the fact that you can skip over the defense debuff sounds like another design flaw. |
To be completely honest I have no understanding how anyone could ask that as a serious question. You rule out so much and so many options to achieve a mind numbing blandness that isn't even particularly desirable as a goal.
If you want to go that route, why not just have one set of numbers for each ATs primary and secondary and have everything else be pick the animation.( You would need all the animations to be the same length as well)
Penalty: Basically no damage at all for 10 seconds
IMO: Annoying me for 10 seconds shouldn't be the "balance" for having a nice damage buff. I personally wouldn't object to the idea of nerfing the +damage from this power, if they would also remove or reduce the -damage penalty at the end
That being said, I've learned to make due and simply utilize the "no damage" time to combine inspirations and delete unwanted salvage/recipes
Still annoying though :-P
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I could live with this, and I love the no 10 seconds of impotence, BUT the damage reduction i'm not sure on. I guess you could reduce it a bit to make up for no impotence period, but I think giving up the stacking ability should allow the damage buff to remain as is. I love the end use to use it rather than on expiration, this way if you're low on end it's in your hands rather than hoping you have enough end in the middle of a fight. But if you force in the dmg reduction then bring the end cost down to 25.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
It's a given Super Strength's Rage is going to change, but how?
My take: Reduce damage to 74%. Reduce ToHit to 5% (Enhanceable) Add 20% Accuracy (Enhanceable) Add 86.5% ToHit Debuff Resistance Click costs 30 Endurance to activate (equivalent to .25 EPS), 120 second Recharge/Duration (fixed unenhanceable/unbuffable/undebuffable) No crash on power expiration, does not double stack. The crash is "built in" to give 100% uptime. |
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I've heard of slippery slopes, but I think you just plunged off a slippery cliff.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
To be completely honest I have no understanding how anyone could ask that as a serious question. You rule out so much and so many options to achieve a mind numbing blandness that isn't even particularly desirable as a goal.
If you want to go that route, why not just have one set of numbers for each ATs primary and secondary and have everything else be pick the animation.( You would need all the animations to be the same length as well) |
All I'm looking for is for the crash on Rage to be fair to both resistance and defense-based sets.
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Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
I've heard of slippery slopes, but I think you just plunged off a slippery cliff.
All I'm looking for is for the crash on Rage to be fair to both resistance and defense-based sets. |
How much more fair do you want ? You can bypass the defense crash completely with IOs or drop it to a once every four minutes or so crash with hasten and just SOs.
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Thanks for actually looking at the numbers and analyzing it. Very good points all around. The damage nerf (from 80% to 74%) is meant to account for the downtime the current Rage enforces. With this version of Rage, your damage over time would be as good or perhaps even better than currently (ignoring double stacking).|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I could live with this, and I love the no 10 seconds of impotence, BUT the damage reduction i'm not sure on. I guess you could reduce it a bit to make up for no impotence period, but I think giving up the stacking ability should allow the damage buff to remain as is. I love the end use to use it rather than on expiration, this way if you're low on end it's in your hands rather than hoping you have enough end in the middle of a fight. But if you force in the dmg reduction then bring the end cost down to 25.
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Either way double or triple stacking is going away at some point in the future, we all know this, it's only a matter of what is given in exchange. "Don't change Rage" is not an option.
If anyone else has any Rage modification ideas, let's hear them, I'm sure there's some great ideas out there.
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WARNING: I bold names.
Did you drop the damage from 80% to 74% to represent the loss in damage from the current 10 seconds of -9999% in Rage's crash? If so, I suspect that this number would need to be a bit larger than 6% enhanced damage. The rage crash affects total damage output over a 130 second window, 10 second of which are effectively 0.
The crash represents a 7.7% reduction in damage output over those 130 seconds.
Assuming the use of Single Origins, which is what most balance is based on, Rage and enhancements are accumulating 175% enhanced damage. This value would need to drop by 13% enhanced damage to roughly equal the damage-over-time penalty of a Rage crash. You're theoretically looking at 67% enhanced damage on Rage.
However, I have a feeling that Rage will always have a crash of some type, if only for design purposes.
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The ability to negate the defense debuff is, as far as I'm aware, intentional, left in by Castle after he last "looked at" Rage so as to not unfairly penalize defense-based sets. To be honest, if Rage is to get "looked at" again (I don't think it needs to be for Tankers or Brutes, but the +100% dam it would give to Scrappers, on top of their critical ability, might be an issue), it should simply be changed so that you cannot activate any temp powers during the duration of the crash. Ten seconds of not being able to deal any damage is penalty enough, but even that can be circumvented by using temp powers or vet powers.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And the fact that you can skip over the defense debuff sounds like another design flaw.
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EDIT: Could also remove the ability to stack the power, though it's generally not an effective use of Rage to cycle it as often as it's up (as it means more crashes over time than if you'd wait until the power starts blinking to click it again).
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
It's a given Super Strength's Rage is going to change, but how?
My take: Reduce damage to 74%. Reduce ToHit to 5% (Enhanceable) Add 20% Accuracy (Enhanceable) Add 86.5% ToHit Debuff Resistance Click costs 30 Endurance to activate (equivalent to .25 EPS), 120 second Recharge/Duration (fixed unenhanceable/unbuffable/undebuffable) No crash on power expiration, does not double stack. The crash is "built in" to give 100% uptime. |
Why add ToHit Debuff Resistance?
Superstrong characters are not typically the most accurate ones. It always struck me as one of the quirks of CoH that an Inv/SS tanker gets a double to hit buff (Invincibility and Rage). Imagine Ben Grimm trying to get his mitts on a Rikti Drone at this point. Or Spidey squirting web fluid over Juggernaut's eyes. It doesn't seem to work concept-wise...
Rather than giving it fixed recharge, what happens if you make it a toggle? That would solve double-stacking and have roughly the same effect as what you describe above, just remove the annoying animation every two minutes.
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The power's obvious antecedent is the archetypal "Berserker" rage. The conceit behind the berserker is that they are immensely strong while berserk, attacking mindlessly and paying no heed to their own defense. Afterwards they collapse.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Rather than giving it fixed recharge, what happens if you make it a toggle? That would solve double-stacking and have roughly the same effect as what you describe above, just remove the annoying animation every two minutes.
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From Wikipedia:
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The actual fit of madness the berserker experienced was referred to as bärsärkar-gång ("going berserk"). This condition has been described as follows: This fury, which was called berserkergang, occurred not only in the heat of battle, but also during laborious work. Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. When this condition ceased, a great dulling of the mind and feebleness followed, which could last for one or several days. |
Many paper-based RPGs have a version of Berserk, and these often involve a defense penalty the whole time you're berserk, increased damage, increased to-hit, a chance to attack allies, and/or increased hit points, often followed by a crash of some sort.
If CoH's Rage is to stay true to its inspirational sources, the piper will always have to be paid. There are several other powers that have a far worse crash than Rage (Unstoppable, Elude, etc.), so Rage's crash is exceedingly mild. When my characters that run Rage crash I use some kind of control power (Hand Clap or Footstomp if I'm taking too much damage), Taunt, heal, drain endurance, or use a Vet power like Sands of Mu (which isn't affected by the crash -- which seems like a bug to me).
Finally, it's not unreasonable that certain combinations of primary and secondary don't work well together. It would be nice if you could mix and match any sets, but since there are sets that have synergies and sets that don't, why not sets that actively interfere with each other? SS/Ice isn't the only combination that has problems: Martial Arts and Invulnerability have a certain degree of incompatibility because MA has so many KB attacks, while Invulnerability grants defense from proximity to enemies.
Another possibility would be to have two versions of Rage to choose from: the current Rage, or a version of Build Up.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
Thanks for actually looking at the numbers and analyzing it. Very good points all around. The damage nerf (from 80% to 74%) is meant to account for the downtime the current Rage enforces. With this version of Rage, your damage over time would be as good or perhaps even better than currently (ignoring double stacking).
Either way double or triple stacking is going away at some point in the future, we all know this, it's only a matter of what is given in exchange. "Don't change Rage" is not an option. If anyone else has any Rage modification ideas, let's hear them, I'm sure there's some great ideas out there. |
Well most builds are going to stack rage to some point, so simply stopping the stacking will nerf the damage enough, imo. And on top of that you'd be bringing the to hit down to a bit over 1/4 effectiveness - so like I suggested, if you were going to nerf the damage bonus on top of all that, then I'd like to see a reduction on the end cost to make up for that.
But overall, I like your idea, because I really, really, really, really, really hate the rage crash and have always felt it was overkill for what the power actually did - which is give SS damage on par with other sets, and a to hit bonus that was overkill in most situations. Your suggestion is much better than the last attempt to fix rage by adding a no end recovery to the crash - which is why I'm terrified at the though of the devs trying to 'fix' it again. And judging by their latest powerset, dp, it seems their aiming at flashy but underpowered powersets, which is a bad move, imo, especially in a game where people want to play super heroes.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
The power's obvious antecedent is the archetypal "Berserker" rage. The conceit behind the berserker is that they are immensely strong while berserk, attacking mindlessly and paying no heed to their own defense. Afterwards they collapse.
From Wikipedia: A toggle doesn't represent the concept of the berserker rage at all. Many paper-based RPGs have a version of Berserk, and these often involve a defense penalty the whole time you're berserk, increased damage, increased to-hit, a chance to attack allies, and/or increased hit points, often followed by a crash of some sort. If CoH's Rage is to stay true to its inspirational sources, the piper will always have to be paid. There are several other powers that have a far worse crash than Rage (Unstoppable, Elude, etc.), so Rage's crash is exceedingly mild. When my characters that run Rage crash I use some kind of control power (Hand Clap or Footstomp if I'm taking too much damage), Taunt, heal, drain endurance, or use a Vet power like Sands of Mu (which isn't affected by the crash -- which seems like a bug to me). Finally, it's not unreasonable that certain combinations of primary and secondary don't work well together. It would be nice if you could mix and match any sets, but since there are sets that have synergies and sets that don't, why not sets that actively interfere with each other? SS/Ice isn't the only combination that has problems: Martial Arts and Invulnerability have a certain degree of incompatibility because MA has so many KB attacks, while Invulnerability grants defense from proximity to enemies. Another possibility would be to have two versions of Rage to choose from: the current Rage, or a version of Build Up. |
The power is called 'rage' not 'beserker rage' though. And the power doesn't really work like unstoppable or elude in that the set is designed around using rage - if you don't use rage, SS does subpar damage vs. competing sets, by a lot actually, where unstoppable or elude boosts the sets performance well above competing sets that are not using a teir nine like that. That's why the crash is so 'mild', though, imo, it's too harsh as is for what it does.
Your post does create an interesting idea. Maybe rage could be both an inherent and a click power. If you take rage, you get the damage boost that allows SS to compete damage wise vs other sets (70-80%), and that's it. No crash. The power simply means you've learned to fight with a controlled rage. But if you click the rage button, you go into a beserker rage with additional bonuses and a nastier, tier nine-like crash.
I probably like the OP's idea better, because anything more radical would probably require resetting the whole powerset, and lots of people are happy with it 'as is'. Of course I wouldn't complain if they came out with an alternate SS set...
Traditional beserkers don't suffer a 10 second crash every 2 minutes.
And even though the power is called "Rage" and may owe something to beserkers, its part of a set that is intended to cover a very wide range of character concepts.
I've seen Superman-type classic heroes, animated statues of medieval knights, living trees, giant mutants (well, 8 feet tall), a mass golem made out of dwarf star matter, a super-dense mutie biker chick and plenty of other Superstrong characters who don't experience blind anger when they use their strength.
A permanent toggle would actually represent all of these concepts very well.
I do agree though, that there is nothing wrong with some sets having better or worse synergy. Its bound to happen with this many options.
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He didn't say he wanted to get rid of the defense debuff, he said he wanted to find some way to make the crash fair to both defense and resistance based sets. Specifically, he pointed out that distributing the loss in damage protection between both defense and resistance does not solve the problem.|
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Well, IIRC, Castle did say back when the crash was changed a rather lengthy time ago that he'd look at it again, mostly to finally get rid of the Defense Debuff so that Rage stopped unfairly penalizing defense builds.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
You're theoretically looking at 67% enhanced damage on Rage.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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SO's and Hasten will allow you to stack Rage and therefore completely negate the -Def in the crash. It's impossible to avoid the End crash and|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
How much more fair do you want ? You can bypass the defense crash completely with IOs or drop it to a once every four minutes or so crash with hasten and just SOs.
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-Damage period.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
hmmm Rp crap vs Game Mechanic.
Im gonna RP that each and everyone of you are subserviant to me. Wierd, didnt affect anything.
Im gonna argue a change to a game mechanic based on an idea ive had by modifying the game mechanic. Interesting it sparked a discussion, and if the idea is really good will get changed (for better or worse)
Leave the RP garbage at the door. Its okay to learn where to Rp.
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I still dont see any real evidence that rage is going to be changed anytime soon or even that it will ever be changed. Has Castle or any other developer said anything recently about changing rage? How do we know Castle hasnt already looked at it and decide that it good as is? What would be the point of a change, to make rage better or worse?|
Originally Posted by Daemodand
It's a given Super Strength's Rage is going to change, but how?
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As someone who plays mostly Tankers (so I cant say anything about a Brute), I dont see a need to change SS at all. Its very good but not so good that it out shine the rest. Fire does more BPS, Mace and Axe have more AOE, Dark is more survivable so it not over powered. This thread shows that the pros and cons of rage have some people liking it and some people not, that sounds like balance to me. So again I ask would the goal be to make rage better so more people take SS or worse so less people take it?
If I were a developer I would leave rage alone and spend my time on something like ET, a power that did go from over used to under used.
It's a given Super Strength's Rage is going to change, but how?
My take:
Reduce damage to 74%.
Reduce ToHit to 5% (Enhanceable)
Add 20% Accuracy (Enhanceable)
Add 86.5% ToHit Debuff Resistance
Click costs 30 Endurance to activate (equivalent to .25 EPS), 120 second Recharge/Duration (fixed unenhanceable/unbuffable/undebuffable)
No crash on power expiration, does not double stack.
The crash is "built in" to give 100% uptime.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.