It cannot be done? I don't believe it anymore.
By
BBQ_Pork,
Posted on: 2010-04-19 08:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Your optimism is refreshing.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Good for you. Way to stay upbeat.
Perhaps someday, many more things will be added.
The formula of Time, Effort and Resources will still apply.
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Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
I do not know how to start this out so I will get to the point. Over the years we have been told alot of the things we wanted could not be done because of limits on tech, conflicts with animation, clipping and money( I think) and thus we would never see any major changes to the game. I think they said we would never see dual pistols, graphics overhauling, new mastermind abilities, whips( sort of), never see Incarnates, new zones, etc, etc.
Jump to 2010 and now we are seeing things that were then impossible now made possible, so I do not believe it anymore developers. I do not believe a power or a skill set cannot be done or we will "never" see it in game because all the new stuff you said was impossible we now have. So with water zones, full dress(not skirt) robes, new stances, pole weapons and other suggested stuff I am stepping back and say....I can wait, because somehow it will make it in the game someday. |
When the devs say "not possible" they usually mean within the current limitations. Power Customization for example is not possible if you don't have the staffing to make the necessary changes. It all boils down to money, of course. If you have the funding and are willing to spend it, almost anything is possible (within other, broader limitations - laws of phsics for example).
In this thread, the difference between "can be done at all" and "will be done soon with existing time and resources" will be explained many many times.
Annnd... go.
@SPTrashcan
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Originally Posted by Myriad
When the devs say "not possible" they usually mean within the current limitations. Power Customization for example is not possible if you don't have the staffing to make the necessary changes. It all boils down to money, of course. If you have the funding and are willing to spend it, almost anything is possible (within other, broader limitations - laws of phsics for example).
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I get that. Money is a factor in almost every situation(ask any parent) but it is the eventuality I am talking about. It is that the devs has said we can't do it then, we wait and eventually it will be added, given story purpose as well or those added packs they do.
For instance it's possible to play this game in space. I'm not talking about a Moon Zone, I'm talking about City of Heroes developers personally leasing a Shuttle and boosting me, the player, into orbit, while I play on the world's longest-range wireless network.
but I'm not betting that theoretical possibility will occur any time soon. And it will certainly be a purchasable Booster Pack. 
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Your optimism is refreshing.
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Thank you? (confused)
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
For instance it's possible to play this game in space. I'm not talking about a Moon Zone, I'm talking about City of Heroes developers personally leasing a Shuttle and boosting me, the player, into orbit, while I play on the world's longest-range wireless network.
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Hey the promised me I would go into to space.
I think some things are still totally impossible in the current game - like running on walls, for example - there's just no way the game engine could handle that.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Go ahead and take it as a compliment.|
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
Thank you? (confused)
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Optimism is a more pleasant way to start a thread than doom-crying, tirades or whining. We've seen enough of that in other threads over the years.
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With infinite values for the variables of Time, Resources and Money?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some things are still totally impossible in the current game - like running on walls, for example - there's just no way the game engine could handle that.
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Just whip up a whole new engine on a whole new set of servers, port all the content, characters and zones over during server maintanence times and Voila!
Problem solved and no one's the wiser!
Now, as for the reality....
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not that many people are crying out for a Running on Walls/Water power, even if they are comic book staples|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some things are still totally impossible in the current game - like running on walls, for example - there's just no way the game engine could handle that.
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being "impossible" isn't a deal breaker in this case
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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I used to work with a guy who always said, "All things are possible in software." Yes, there's no way the game engine can handle running on walls -- right now. It's within the realm of possibility that the game engine could be modified to allow it. The problem, as others have mentioned, is the time, money and staffing required to implement such a change.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some things are still totally impossible in the current game - like running on walls, for example - there's just no way the game engine could handle that.
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The problem with continually changing a piece of software is that, like a piece of metal that you constantly bend back and forth, it will eventually break. No matter how superior the design was originally, when you try to add things that had never even been conceived of in the design you have to make changes that compromise the original assumptions, sometimes causing inherent contradictions in the software. These changes cause bugs. At some point, every time you add a new feature you wind up causing more bugs than you can fix in a reasonable amount of time.
Add to this that any software project that lasts more than a few years has a certain amount of turnover, and you lose the "institutional memory" of why things are the way are. New programmers wind up making changes that cause more problems than they solve. On the other hand, new programmers sometimes bring in new insights and can simplify or see new solutions to old problems. And sometimes new technology can make certain things easier (such as the improvements in graphics card technology).
In a well-designed system it's often possible to rewrite subcomponents to accommodate new requirements without compromising the whole system, so certain projects have a longer useful life than others.
So, when developers say, "this is not possible," the unstated assumption is that the impossibility is due to some combination of staffing, budget, technology, hardware, infrastructure, marketing plan, management structure, and so on, and may become possible when any of those things change. And like any corporation, when internal conditions change they don't announce them immediately for competitive reasons.
So instead of whining that the devs keep saying something is impossible, we should be glad that they communicate with us honestly, and keep coming up with ways to make the impossible possible.
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Sadly this is true......
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Perhaps someday, many more things will be added.
The formula of Time, Effort and Resources will still apply. |
"A great love is alot like a good memory. When it's there and you know it's there,but it's just out of your reach. It can be all that you think about. You can focus on it and try to force it but the more you do, the more you seem to push it away. But if you're patient and hold still...maybe...just maybe...it will come to you. I just need to be somewhere she can find me" - Church from Red vs Blue
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There are three different replies you're lumping in to "cannot be done" (or, "won't see it.")|
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
I do not know how to start this out so I will get to the point. Over the years we have been told alot of the things we wanted could not be done because of limits on tech, conflicts with animation, clipping and money( I think) and thus we would never see any major changes to the game. I think they said we would never see dual pistols, graphics overhauling, new mastermind abilities, whips( sort of), never see Incarnates, new zones, etc, etc.
Jump to 2010 and now we are seeing things that were then impossible now made possible, so I do not believe it anymore developers. I do not believe a power or a skill set cannot be done or we will "never" see it in game because all the new stuff you said was impossible we now have. So with water zones, full dress(not skirt) robes, new stances, pole weapons and other suggested stuff I am stepping back and say....I can wait, because somehow it will make it in the game someday. |
1. Cannot be done in a reasonable time, cost effectively, with current resources. Power Customization is the poster child for this - we were told "sure, it could - if we did it, you wouldn't see anything else for at least a year" at one point, back when the dev staff was 15 people. Give them more freedom, staff, and money, and they can work on it.
2. Cannot be done with the current engine. Super speed running up walls. If they take the (extreme amount of) time to rewrite the engine, then maybe.
3. Won't be done. Has nothing to do with tech or money, it just won't be done. Changing your primary and/or secondary they won't even look at (that aside from my strong belief it's more #2 - those, origin and AT are so fundamental to the character it'd break too much.) Water zones are another - BaB is very much against them from prior comments because of how difficult it'd be to get them to turn out decently, among other things.
Turn off the "I want/I don't want" filter and read the dev comments (when they comment) and you can normally figure out which it is - if they don't' say straight out.
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A good example of this is Taunt. In PvP, Taunt is just like every other mez: it's either on or off. And if your Taunt magnitude beats the foe's magnitude of protection from Taunt, then you've successfully Taunted your foe and its agro is locked onto you.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
Add to this that any software project that lasts more than a few years has a certain amount of turnover, and you lose the "institutional memory" of why things are the way are. New programmers wind up making changes that cause more problems than they solve. On the other hand, new programmers sometimes bring in new insights and can simplify or see new solutions to old problems. And sometimes new technology can make certain things easier (such as the improvements in graphics card technology).
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For a while, all the players *and* the developers thought that was how Taunt worked in the PvE world... but it didn't. A few years ago, we had a case where some scrappers were able to grab agro from a foe and no matter what a Tanker with a higher magnitude of Taunt did, that Tanker couldn't steal the agro away from the Scrapper. Only in researching through the code line by line did the developers discover what the original coder did: for PvE, Taunt magnitude was merely a multiplier of Threat, and Threat was the ultimate determiner of agro for critters. Since Damage was also a multiplier of Threat, a Scrapper doing high damage was able to keep a Taunting Tanker from grabbing agro.
So, that was a clear case where legacy (and presumably, undocumented) code was not understood and causing problems.
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Well, the reality is possibly what the recent trademark registration was about |
Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
With infinite values for the variables of Time, Resources and Money?
Just whip up a whole new engine on a whole new set of servers, port all the content, characters and zones over during server maintanence times and Voila! Problem solved and no one's the wiser! Now, as for the reality.... |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Another limitation is due to the player's hardware. Example: I'm sure it would be technically possible for the Devs to let all of us sport multiple cape-like features: wavy scarves, frilly bits, streamers from the limbs, ribbon headbands, flowing hair, etc. At the cost of flooring the framerate on every player who lacks a cutting-edge graphics card.
The converse, of course, is that this game can't maintain infinite backwards compatability *forever*.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
When the devs say "not possible" they usually mean within the current limitations. Power Customization for example is not possible if you don't have the staffing to make the necessary changes. It all boils down to money, of course. If you have the funding and are willing to spend it, almost anything is possible (within other, broader limitations - laws of phsics for example).
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I work as a software developer (of the boring kind--business apps). Customers sometimes ask for pretty wild stuff, and they always ask "is it possible?". The short answer is "yes". The longer one is "how much money and time do you have?". And that right there puts the brakes on a lot of stuff.
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The thread could have ended here.
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Originally Posted by BBQ_Pork
Perhaps someday, many more things will be added.
The formula of Time, Effort and Resources will still apply. |
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
A couple of things:
First, what Bill said. There's "won't," there's "can't" and there's "not now."
Secondly, as one of the developers mentioned before, everything is a question of priorities. You can have something done well, fast or cheap, and you generally only ever get to pick any two of the three. A lot of "not now" is because of this.
Other than that, staying optimistic is a good general policy. I still hold SOME hope for an extra AT or two at some point down the road.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think some things are still totally impossible in the current game - like running on walls, for example - there's just no way the game engine could handle that.
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Originally Posted by BigFish
not that many people are crying out for a Running on Walls/Water power, even if they are comic book staples
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Do you remember The Pride Trailer? It shows running on walls/water towards the end of the video (2:30 - 2:39).
Ok, demo editing. Still nice, though.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
There are three different replies you're lumping in to "cannot be done" (or, "won't see it.")
1. Cannot be done in a reasonable time, cost effectively, with current resources. Power Customization is the poster child for this - we were told "sure, it could - if we did it, you wouldn't see anything else for at least a year" at one point, back when the dev staff was 15 people. Give them more freedom, staff, and money, and they can work on it. 2. Cannot be done with the current engine. Super speed running up walls. If they take the (extreme amount of) time to rewrite the engine, then maybe. 3. Won't be done. Has nothing to do with tech or money, it just won't be done. Changing your primary and/or secondary they won't even look at (that aside from my strong belief it's more #2 - those, origin and AT are so fundamental to the character it'd break too much.) Water zones are another - BaB is very much against them from prior comments because of how difficult it'd be to get them to turn out decently, among other things. Turn off the "I want/I don't want" filter and read the dev comments (when they comment) and you can normally figure out which it is - if they don't' say straight out. |
Players are quick to confuse the first two points with the third. I'm pretty sure I can count the number of things the devs have flat out said "NO it just won't be done" on one hand, and we have not seen any one of those items put into the game yet.
I do not know how to start this out so I will get to the point. Over the years we have been told alot of the things we wanted could not be done because of limits on tech, conflicts with animation, clipping and money( I think) and thus we would never see any major changes to the game. I think they said we would never see dual pistols, graphics overhauling, new mastermind abilities, whips( sort of), never see Incarnates, new zones, etc, etc.
Jump to 2010 and now we are seeing things that were then impossible now made possible, so I do not believe it anymore developers. I do not believe a power or a skill set cannot be done or we will "never" see it in game because all the new stuff you said was impossible we now have. So with water zones, full dress(not skirt) robes, new stances, pole weapons and other suggested stuff I am stepping back and say....I can wait, because somehow it will make it in the game someday.