It was still damn amazing. I, myself am definitely not invalidating anything. I was just saying that IOs could make potentially all the armors godly. That includes all the others. It you do that with a standard dark(or any other), it is easier to claim that set is full of awesomesauce and not just that the set has potential. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't awesome, just that all of that wasn't dark armor(and pools). I love dark armor and don't see anything wrong with it. I also can't take my dark armor and jump into the groups that you did without capping, probably.
Quote:
*has a EM/Dark brute*|
Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
It was still damn amazing. I, myself am definitely not invalidating anything. I was just saying that IOs could make potentially all the armors godly. That includes all the others. It you do that with a standard dark(or any other), it is easier to claim that set is full of awesomesauce and not just that the set has potential. Again, I'm not saying it wasn't awesome, just that all of that wasn't dark armor(and pools). I love dark armor and don't see anything wrong with it. I also can't take my dark armor and jump into the groups that you did without capping, probably.
|
Um, my character routinely does x8 missions solo, just for the challenge of it. No defense, just his armor and two control auras. That is with a extremely single target set against an entire team's worth of enemies. I'm sure with a tank's level of resists, it's even tougher.
The "trick" of DA is that it's not balanced around damage immunity...it's toughness specialty is against two of the less common damage types, after all- it's balanced around the idea it can incapacitate most enemies that get near you, damage them okay, and when you need it, heal you from 1% to 100%.
DA is not a 'wade in and taunt' set. Dark regeneration needs a lot of timing, and the dark armor builds tend to need a fair bit of knowledge to slot, especially when you get more and more of the set. You're not just dealing with hp management, you're dealing with endurance and control management. For it, you get some very unique abilities. Endurance drain? not so much a problem. Psy damage? you can laugh it off. Problem mobs? Standing near them can stun/fear 'em to keep them from pulling hijinks. Not to double dip on the heal, but it really is that good.
Quote:
Does your dark armor jump into those purple level 54 mobs like he was doing in the video and laugh? That's what he was doing. I'm not saying it can't perform or that it is not a great set, just that to claim it was all Dark Armor is misleading. That first group of Malta, he didn't even get hit and didn't have to use his heal at all. The set is great but without the defense, he won't be doing THAT particular feat. If someone can and does, then that's even cooler. But the title speaks of the armor. And, like I said, with me softcapped or not, I still wouldn't have the player skill to do any of that crazy stuff. But, most posts with fantastic displays like that say stuff like "Softcapped dark, king of the world!" or "Willpower+defense=Awsome!"(both made up posts that I have never seen, of course) .
|
Originally Posted by Seldom
*has a EM/Dark brute*
Um, my character routinely does x8 missions solo, just for the challenge of it. No defense, just his armor and two control auras. That is with a extremely single target set against an entire team's worth of enemies. I'm sure with a tank's level of resists, it's even tougher. The "trick" of DA is that it's not balanced around damage immunity...it's toughness specialty is against two of the less common damage types, after all- it's balanced around the idea it can incapacitate most enemies that get near you, damage them okay, and when you need it, heal you from 1% to 100%. DA is not a 'wade in and taunt' set. Dark regeneration needs a lot of timing, and the dark armor builds tend to need a fair bit of knowledge to slot, especially when you get more and more of the set. You're not just dealing with hp management, you're dealing with endurance and control management. For it, you get some very unique abilities. Endurance drain? not so much a problem. Psy damage? you can laugh it off. Problem mobs? Standing near them can stun/fear 'em to keep them from pulling hijinks. Not to double dip on the heal, but it really is that good. |
Quote:
Apologies for misunderstanding you. And while the highlighted portion is mostly true, IOs cannot add end drain resistance or fill the psi damage hole that granite and invulnerability have.|
Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
It was still damn amazing. I, myself am definitely not invalidating anything. I was just saying that IOs could make potentially all the armors godly.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Seldom
*has a EM/Dark brute*
Um, my character routinely does x8 missions solo, just for the challenge of it. No defense, just his armor and two control auras. ... DA is not a 'wade in and taunt' set. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Live_Wyre
That first group of Malta, he didn't even get hit and didn't have to use his heal at all.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
No. This video highlights the strengths of a well planned build. Something which is NOT unique to DA in any way, shape or form.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
This video highlights strengths unique to dark armour
|
Try the same on a common IO, Hami-O, or cheaply non-set frankenslotted build and then tell me about the strengths of DA.
Note: I'm NOT saying DA is bad. It isn't. I'm simply disagreeing that showing off a defense-capped build is really showing off the strengths of DA.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Yeah, I honestly think that proc is the biggest dividing line for DA. W/it, you're awesome. W/o, you suck (end). I actually bought enough of them so that I give them to my friends who roll DA toons just to make sure they stick with it. It's the difference bet. spamming DR whenever it's up, which pretty much equals immortality in most situations, and being afraid to for fear of your end bar.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
While it doesn't go in the control auras, I'd like to bring up what I believe to be the single best IO for Dark Armor:
Theft of Essence chance for +end. |
As for the argument that this isn't a valid test of DA since it's so IO'ed up, while I can't completely disagree, you also have to consider that other sets, IO'ed or no, will have some holes. My Fire tank is S/L (def) capped and is all sorts of tough, but fades to psi & end drain very quickly. He wouldn't have fared nearly as well against the carnies. Elec has serious issues w/toxic. Even Stone has to pick & choose vs Psi & non-Psi, and if there's enough of it mixed up, they can be put down.
A defense-based set doesn't profit by more +def stacking (tho they have more DDR) and still might have gaps. Also, a lucky hit streak or just +to hit buffs can make def-based tanks' lives miserable, but not the well layered mitigations of a res-based tank w/high def. Of all the potential combos, you could argue that a twinked DA has the best survivability in the game, or at least the least weaknesses w/its Psi res, end drain res and great heal (maybe best in the game), even if it doesn't quite have the peak performance of, say, Granite (against all but Psi, anyway).
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
Indeed it's easy to argue that DA is the best at lowest levels. Heck with 1 accuracy and 4 recharge TOs (what you could get in there before 12,) it's on a 22.5 second cooldown. Bump that up to 2 acc and 4 recharge DOs and it's every 18 seconds. With three 50 IOs healing flames doesn't get that fast, or potentially as good of a heal.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Honestly? I think Dark Armor is one of the best low level tanks. Sure, at that level you tank endurance more than enemies, but DA has its "godmode" power at level 8.
|
I would still pair DA with DM, but more for dark consumption than anything. Then again, I'd pair anything with DM for dark consumption!
Also, if you look at the Scrapper boards you will see 2 sticky's at the top talking about results. One is for high recharge toons (think lotsa purps), and one not. Dark Melee is near the top of both damage dealers for overall melee in the game brutes/scrappers. Cannot be bad on a tank, especially when you get all the other nifty stuff in that set that helps make a tankers life easier.
Quote:
That's purely for ST DPS. DM is an AoE bottom feeder. If you want to solo pylons w/your tank, by all means, go DM.
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Also, if you look at the Scrapper boards you will see 2 sticky's at the top talking about results. One is for high recharge toons (think lotsa purps), and one not. Dark Melee is near the top of both damage dealers for overall melee in the game brutes/scrappers. Cannot be bad on a tank, especially when you get all the other nifty stuff in that set that helps make a tankers life easier.
|
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Ah, and there is the true beauty my friend. When I tank for an 8 team I grab all agro and hold on. Doing area damage drops way down on my list of priorities. I am judging whether to pull more, watching squishy's health bars, watching for surrounding mobs, planning next mish, etc. Except ( ta ta ta tah ta tah tah ) when AVs pop up. Then I need ST damage and I am back on serious damage output job. (partly just to hold its attention, but also lets get this AV down fast as possible. And DM shines there. So yes, DM does mediocre AoE. or the worst, or bottom feeds, or whatever. AoE damage is not why I love dark melee. I love it for the heals, I love it for the AoE end drain, I love it for the AoE attack that is a attack boost, and I love the way it is synergistic with dark armor.
Quote:
QFT, QFE. I was going to say this, but you outsnarked me.
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
And I didn't see dark armor I saw orange armor. No one as far as I know ever doubted orange armor.
|
Quote:
You're telling me I have to play up a DA tank just to prove that you don't need IO sets to be effective? Ugh! Seriously dark regen alone can carry DA.
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Try the same on a common IO, Hami-O, or cheaply non-set frankenslotted build and then tell me about the strengths of DA.
|
My dark/dark build at 29 is tanking +4 freaks for a 8 team. It is SO'd only, except for a Karma KB I/O. I think the dark/dark combo can do fine by itself (I do not plan to I/o it until 47, cause I like the symmetry of an all 50 I/o'd toon) I will be adding more procs though, because those are always best at lowest value anyways. However the dark/dark does good. I would definitely rather by on a dark/dark tank at 29 than a stone/whatever at 29. At 32, well, I still prefer the dark, cause I hate granite, but I won't argue that it is better there, just better for me.
Quote:
I think you missed what he was saying. Try the same on a defense capped stone, invulnerability, fire, willpower, or shield tank. Tell me how they do when their endurance bottoms out.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. This video highlights the strengths of a well planned build. Something which is NOT unique to DA in any way, shape or form.
Try the same on a common IO, Hami-O, or cheaply non-set frankenslotted build and then tell me about the strengths of DA. Note: I'm NOT saying DA is bad. It isn't. I'm simply disagreeing that showing off a defense-capped build is really showing off the strengths of DA. |
Edit: Whoops, stone does have end drain resist in rooted.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Of all the potential combos, you could argue that a twinked DA has the best survivability in the game, or at least the least weaknesses w/its Psi res, end drain res and great heal (maybe best in the game), even if it doesn't quite have the peak performance of, say, Granite (against all but Psi, anyway).
|
It only has two major weaknesses. One is the lack of KB protection, which is easily fixed. The second is the low energy resist (which is fairly common). That was harder to fix, but it's why I worked so hard on the E/N softcap.
The things that drop most tankers (such as psi damage and end drain) I can laugh at.
As it stands, the only thing I really have to worry about are defense and resistance debuffs (cimerorans and vanguard). Eating purples grant enough pseudo DDR for dealing with the cimerorans though.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Ah, and there is the true beauty my friend. When I tank for an 8 team I grab all agro and hold on. Doing area damage drops way down on my list of priorities.
|
I use taunt, combustion, fire sword circle, and the ancillary salt crystals to great effect. The salt crystals do a surprisingly good job of pissing the mobs off. I think it's the combination of debuff and status effect. It's got a very large area of effect to boot.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
(I do not plan to I/o it until 47, cause I like the symmetry of an all 50 I/o'd toon) I will be adding more procs though, because those are always best at lowest value anyways.
|
Two: Procs don't actually care what level you have them. A level fifty +stealth proc in sprint will still give you stealth exemped to level 1. A level 50 damage proc in brawl can still fire at level 1. If the power is available and the proc is in the power, it can fire.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Dark melee is not what I depend on for AoE agro. It is the 3 toggles running that affect all in contact with me. I am also spamming taunt. (cause i like it).
My understanding of I/Os is not complete. But I thought procs would fire only if they are a few levels higher than the level you examplared to. That is why I buy them at the lowest level they drop.
Good idea on the 40th level sets. 2 reasons I do not do this, I like the max bonuses in 50 sets, and 2) I get my TF badges out of the way as I level, and run mostly ITF LGTF on established toons.
Quote:
No, procs only require you to use the power, they do not care about your level relative to the enhancement level (as long as you can slot it anyway). Globals on the other hand do care about relative levels (same as set bonuses, no more than 3 levels below the IO level) but conversely you do not need to use the power to get the benefit so you get the bonus even if you exemp low enough that the power is greyed out.
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My understanding of I/Os is not complete. But I thought procs would fire only if they are a few levels higher than the level you examplared to. That is why I buy them at the lowest level they drop.
|
Quote:
Much as I love to talk up dark armor, one of these things is not like the other. Rooted from Stone Armor grants 86.5% resistance to end drain and recovery debuffs, the same amount granted by Murky Cloud from Dark Armor. Of couse, a Stone tank won't be bringing the combination of psionic protection, resistance, and self-heal - at least not all at the same time. But my own Stone/Stone can tank Carnies and Malta just dandy. It just takes a bit longer to take them down. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think you missed what he was saying. Try the same on a defense capped stone, invulnerability, fire, willpower, or shield tank. Tell me how they do when their endurance bottoms out.
|
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I've only got the one damage toggle because I don't like wandering mobs. Taunt doesn't get "spammed" but I do use it often.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Dark melee is not what I depend on for AoE agro. It is the 3 toggles running that affect all in contact with me. I am also spamming taunt. (cause i like it).
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
My understanding of I/Os is not complete. But I thought procs would fire only if they are a few levels higher than the level you examplared to. That is why I buy them at the lowest level they drop.
|
Procs are different. They have a chance to happen every time a power is used, and they don't care what level they are. The Miracle +recovery is technically a proc, so if it's in health it will work as long as you have health no matter what level the IO is. (Miracle is a "proc120", meaning that it is active for 120 seconds after the power is activated. Health is an auto power, which renews every 10 seconds. You could put it in something like healing aura, and it would be active for 120 seconds after every heal.)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Good idea on the 40th level sets. 2 reasons I do not do this, I like the max bonuses in 50 sets, and 2) I get my TF badges out of the way as I level, and run mostly ITF LGTF on established toons.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Much as I love to talk up dark armor, one of these things is not like the other. Rooted from Stone Armor grants 86.5% resistance to end drain and recovery debuffs, the same amount granted by Murky Cloud from Dark Armor.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I took a shot at a dark tank when it came out..bummed out we got dark and not elec till much later i went the route of dark/dark..i hate it..id delete it but its 50 and can sit there now..im thinking if i went with a different 2ndary i would like it more but i havent bothered with it.
Quote:
Elec also has end drain resist and psi resists, and higher overall res #s (capped En), but has a gaping hole to toxic, plus the heal isn't *nearly* as good. That makes it feel a ton more squishy early on and I'm still working on my Elec tank's def, so I can't really say which I'll like better in the end. Overall, at least on blue-side, it's sorta close I think, but red-side ELM gets killed by the more frequent tox.
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Dave has stumbled on the reason I built a Dark Armor tank to begin with. I looked at the set and thought: "Damn, that has potential."
|
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Oh you sonofa...
You built a group with every debuff in the game. At least my tank had endurance left after the first 5 seconds. And I managed to beat one full spawn at a time. The damned force bubble guys pushing me into the next group just wasn't fair. Is that arc still up? Proving Grounds - Spawn of Satan Edition or something like that? I need to practice. I'll get back to you on that. |
That was Gamma team, actually. Echo was guns guns and more guns. Yet somehow they managed to tear you up even faster than the good ol' "every debuff and mez in the game 'cept fear" Gamma team.
[edit] I forgot the EB at the end. I think he has a fear in there somewhere...
Musta been the cascading -def in all those assault rifles... I'll have to look into that.
And yes the arc is still up. Left just because you folks requested it! Though I'm still not quite sure why those nights were so much damn fun... The debt flowed like water!
Virtue - @Carlin
If it's not on fire yet, you're not trying hard enough!
Thanks Dechs, that was what i was trying to say lol. Yeah, I buy the globals at the lowest level on the market. There were 2 options for the global KB proc at level 10, both in recipe and created form. Karma and a movement set global. One version (the only one available on the market) was selling for 200 mil. I got a level 11 karma for 20 mil :-). I also buy Numina at loest, will be getting some other globals too. Plus i am about to look very seriously at that "Theft of Essence" +ENd for dark regen. will prob buy that tonight and try to grind to 31 so I can add slots and drop it in.
Quote:
Note to people who need -KB recipes: DO NOT buy them from the market, unless you have money to spare. It's much easier to do a few valid AE missions and use the tickets on level 10-15 bronze recipe pools. These are cheap, and yield -KB IO's pretty quickly. There will be some junk recipes you recieve, but they can be sold/trashed.
|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Thanks Dechs, that was what i was trying to say lol. Yeah, I buy the globals at the lowest level on the market. There were 2 options for the global KB proc at level 10, both in recipe and created form. Karma and a movement set global. One version (the only one available on the market) was selling for 200 mil. I got a level 11 karma for 20 mil :-)
|
Quote:
I agree with my home server mate |
Originally Posted by Predatoric
Dark isnt a bad set, if built right but thats like every other tanker.
You can have a stone or an invul die in two seconds if its a bad player running it. I myself had a dark/fire last year on union, it was one of the most fun and challenging tanks I played and I played every one except elec now to 50. Leveling was a bit of a pain before i got aid self in, then it was just a case of 6 slotting dark regeneration and aid self, making sure to put an interupt duration IO in aid self and your pretty much sorted. With sets though Im pretty sure you wouldnt even need that much. Dark has one of the best alround resists in the tanker primarys, possibly elec is a bit better but I havent checked the numbers, even so you dont get darks mitigation. |
, honest if u think dark armor sucks u really dont know to use it at all. my opinion always dark armor can rock in pve and in pvp too
Theft of Essence chance for +end.
I've seen Dark Regeneration fill both of my bars.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.