Gravity Control: A Buff Thread for Mastering the Universe
By
DMystic,
Posted on: 2010-04-05 12:10 in Suggestions and Ideas
I've always wanted to play gravity but always got too frustrated with how bad it was. I'm on board for any and all positive changes to the set.
Propel -
Yeah. It's bad enough I don't bother taking it. It's a great attack - except that most times, if I'm playing with anybody else, by the time it's done animating most targets are already dead. It's not worth taking at all on a dominator. And it all comes down to the amount of time it takes.
I don't think, actually, you can "add ignore phase" or essentially remove something from a phased state to an attack or control. Can't say definitely though.
I like DS, really - situational power, but it's been handy - but I agree it needs to be more *obvious.*
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Yeah, I've gotten to test it a moderate bit on a semi-static team and even saved the day a time or two. It works well as an absolute defense style of AoE hold in that you trade the ability to attack your opponent for higher accuracy, longer duration, and the inability for the foe to resist it. It just needs the kinks worked out.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I like DS, really - situational power, but it's been handy - but I agree it needs to be more *obvious.*
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I actually consider Propel the worst part of the set, which is problematic considering when you get it. Other sets are getting sleeps, confuses, AoE knockdowns, or slow patches with strong debuffs while Gravity gets...Power Blast with twice the animation time. lolwut? How good Lift is spotlights the problems with Propel and Lift comes sooner. It's a shame since Propel has a cool animation.
I agree DS would be nice to have increase Magnitude immob. Otherwise, if you use it on immob-resistant mobs, the Phased mobs mix with the unphased mobs and DS just causes grief.
Propel does much less damage than Hurl Boulder in PVP, despite its lesser range and much longer animation. Think one of the two needs to be adjusted, maybe?
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Technically you could outright initiate a power dampening field to cancel powers but that would be incredibly broken, obviously. I don't think anyone tested self phasing while fighting the early versions of Lord Winter and I don't think there's anything in the game currently that detoggles (without stuns/sapping) to test this against.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't think, actually, you can "add ignore phase" or essentially remove something from a phased state to an attack or control. Can't say definitely though.
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Yeah, we'd basically need some dev input here. |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Technically you could outright initiate a power dampening field to cancel powers but that would be incredibly broken, obviously. I don't think anyone tested self phasing while fighting the early versions of Lord Winter and I don't think there's anything in the game currently that detoggles (without stuns/sapping) to test this against.
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We do have a few situations to consider, though -
- PVP, if I recall properly, decided to set it so phased players can attack each other - basically sacrificing theme for playability, because:
- PVE, the devs had said previously that just because you're phased doesn't mean you're "phased the same way" (technologically going to another dimension, putting yourself out of phase with this dimension, etc.) and they wanted to maintain that.
- Current Hami, IIRC, *can* attack through phase.
What to get from all that - some of which is solely from patch-note memory? I don't know. I don't know the mechanics behind any of it or if it'd be dev-acceptable in a PVE situation (I really, *REALLY* hoped we'd be attacking illusionaists....)
I could live with everything else in gravity if they would only fix wormhole so it wasn't a low-radius, slow, dangerous power to use. Also, although I love knockback in general in the game, high magnitude AOE knockback in the bread-and-butter AOE control of a control set is more of a bother than a boon.
Zamuel's suggested fixes would make wormhole more fun and effective to use. It seems to me to be worth a shot.
So far I've always loved Gravity in all its aspects except Dimension Shift, which honestly needs to be fixed because NOBODY uses it, it's just that bad, but as for your suggestions... now that you've proposed knockdown on Crush and Crushing Field, I want it. Because thematically, that is AWESOME.
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The problem with saying "Nobody" or "Everybody" does something is that... you're making an incorrect assumption, most times. |
Originally Posted by flashrains
So far I've always loved Gravity in all its aspects except Dimension Shift, which honestly needs to be fixed because NOBODY uses it,
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For instance, this:
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| I like DS, really - situational power, but it's been handy - but I agree it needs to be more *obvious.* |
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Nobody assumes that "nobody" is a literal absolute. Everybody realises it's obviously hyperbolic.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The problem with saying "Nobody" or "Everybody" does something is that... you're making an incorrect assumption, most times.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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This. So very much, this. Only PM I've ever sent to a dev (that I remember) was when the dominator changes were on the test server to ask why the same logic that got it buffed for dominators didn't also get it buffed for controllers. Never got a reply to that PM either. |
Lift: On the other end of the leveling spectrum is oddly what might be your best control (which says things right there...). Knockup instead of knockback, strong magnitude, recharges relatively fast, and Dominators recently received a damage boost so it's nice as an attack on its own. * My sole suggestion is to give Controllers the same damage buff Dominators got recently |
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: STOP!
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: WAIT ONE SECOND!
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: WHAT IS A SEAGULL DOING ON MY THRONE!?!?
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Well, several things here:|
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
This. So very much, this. Only PM I've ever sent to a dev (that I remember) was when the dominator changes were on the test server to ask why the same logic that got it buffed for dominators didn't also get it buffed for controllers. Never got a reply to that PM either.
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1. Controllers have containment. Double damage on anything held, immob'd, etc. (not *all* controls but quite a bit will set up containment.) Land that first hold, you're doubling damage.
2. Dominators had a problem with - using the devs description, which was very fitting - of being "jeckyl and hyde." They had lousy damage, no containment, etc. until Domination was ready, then *bam* they were godly... until it dropped, which was a driving force behind people trying for perma-dom. Adjusting the damage lessened that *greatly.* You've now got formerly-Dom level damage at all times.
3. Dominators are control/damage ATs to begin with. Controllers are not. Dominators got a damage buff because they were not fitting their role as well as they could - and they are now.
So, yeah, an overall damage buff for controllers? I wouldn't expect to see it, frankly. Individual power adjustments like Propel? Sure. (Edit: And I'm saying that as someone who's gotten two decidedly non-high-damage combos to 50 - Ice/Emp and Earth/FF.)
I think you're talkiing about the Dominator change to Lift damage (to make it equal to Levitate) rather than the overall Dom damage buff, right, Rebel_Scum?
I'd really like to see this change passed on to Controllers, so Lift does base 40 damage at level 50.
I've dug out my old Grav Controller recently and been quite apalled at how dysfunctional she feels. She was my first Controller, so the play through to 50 was full of "woo-hoo! my holds last forever! this set is awesome! take that -> Propel!" and so on.
Having levelled 4 other Controllers to 50 since them, I'm now less easily impressed. Lift is low damage. Propel is incredibly slow to animate. These two factors really detract from Gravity's potential niche as the ST damage Blastroller.
/Signed
I love gravity, but it sometimes is a chore to play compared to all of the other control sets. Now, I think if Dimension Shift were changed to a PBAoE Knockup/stun version of Lift, the set would be golden, but of course Devs don't want to completely replace any powers... Oh well. That's just my personal opinion, I know some people find it useful. I just think the cons vastly outweigh the pros.
And then there's the issue with Propel... It just takes WAY too long to activate. I would decrease the animation time to 1.83 seconds (that alone would increase its usefulness to me tenfold), add a mag 2-3 stun component, and make it a very narrow cone attack (like Dual Pistols' Piercing Rounds) so that could potentially hit more than one foe. Then I would take it in a heartbeat.
Virtue - @Kabuto & @Kabutops
Main heroes:
Dark/Psy/Psy Defender
Grav/Storm/Power Controller
Ice/Storm/Ice Controller
Plant/Rad/Psi Controller
Earth/Rad/Earth Controller
Main Villains:
Ice/Cold/Sharks Corruptor
Elec/Shield Brute
Fortunata/Soul Widow
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Had a few PM discussions with Arcanaville about her understandings of phase mechanics. (wall of text warning ahoy!)|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yeah, we'd basically need some dev input here.
We do have a few situations to consider, though - - PVP, if I recall properly, decided to set it so phased players can attack each other - basically sacrificing theme for playability, because: - PVE, the devs had said previously that just because you're phased doesn't mean you're "phased the same way" (technologically going to another dimension, putting yourself out of phase with this dimension, etc.) and they wanted to maintain that. - Current Hami, IIRC, *can* attack through phase. What to get from all that - some of which is solely from patch-note memory? I don't know. I don't know the mechanics behind any of it or if it'd be dev-acceptable in a PVE situation (I really, *REALLY* hoped we'd be attacking illusionaists....) |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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Being phased is basically being hit with a hold, only its your phased state that goes up not your hold state. Hitting someone with a power that reduced your phase state would snap you out of being phased, just like hitting someone with clear mind can snap them out of being held. Of course, how you're going to do that when they are phased is tricky: you would have to phase yourself, hit them with the "unphase" and then unphase yourself. Or have a power capable of affecting phased things specifically. Quote:
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Important: when you enhance a power, and boost effects in that power, the *only* thing you can change is its Scale Value. You can't boost anything else, period. So if the effect is tagged "magnitude" then slotting (and buffs and debuffs and all other effects - even the purple patch) affect the effect's magnitude. Damage effects are like that. If the effect is tagged "duration" then the only thing you can affect is the duration of the power. A single power can have different effects tagged differently. An attack that does damage and holds (say, Blind) will have the damage effect tagged magnitude and the mez effect tagged duration. Damage enhancements will boost the magnitude of the damage, and Hold enhancements will boost the duration of the hold, in the same power. Its *impossible* for a power to have an effect in which enhancements increase both the magnitude and the duration of that one specific effect, because there's no way to do that. *Different* effects can be individually affected in different ways, like the Blind example above. But note that its not the *enhancement* that determines what happens, but actually the *power*. The enhancement just says "boost Hold." The power says "when you boost my hold, increase its duration please." Unless the devs did something very special to intangible powers when I wasn't looking, this general principle applies to all powers and all effects. All enhancements have the ability to increase duration or magnitude, but no power can have an effect that has both an enhanceable magnitude and an enhanceable duration. Remember: its really just one number - Scale Value - and a flag which says which one the scale value is. Clearly, you can only boost one or the other for a given effect in a given power. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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While playing my Grav Controller yesterday, I had a realisation on what would really help Propel, both thematically and balance-wise: make it a narrow cone, like Penetrating Shot from Dual Pistols. You're launching a large, heavy object directly at someone. That it hits everyone in between and possibly those behind as well just makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
[*]Propel: Propel bugs me. With a 3.5 second animation, it's one of the longest animation times in the game for what's just a single target knockback attack as opposed to a summon, snipe, or nuke. It essentially suffers the same problem as Wormhole but perhaps is worse for the single target nature and that it requires line of sight. Lift has a much shorter activation time, longer range, and higher magnitude. While shortening the activation seems obvious, it still needs something else, especially since the set is not as synergistic as others. I propose adding a stun component so it can be combined with Wormhole for bosses with stun resistance. Stun also helps with Overpower, Domination, and Containment. The more daring suggestion is to help it synergize with Dimension Shift by allowing it to ignore phasing and for it to deactivate enemy phase states. Hamidon shows that you can have attacks that ignore phasing but it's a delicate situation to put such a power in the hands of players. Outside of PvP, phasing isn't common so it may not be an issude but there may be problems within PvP.
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I wanted the same thing ever since I found out how Penetrating Shot was going to work.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
While playing my Grav Controller yesterday, I had a realisation on what would really help Propel, both thematically and balance-wise: make it a narrow cone, like Penetrating Shot from Dual Pistols. You're launching a large, heavy object directly at someone. That it hits everyone in between and possibly those behind as well just makes sense.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
About an hour or so ago in Pocket D Testserver...
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So I'm happy even if it's not a full guarantee. Once again, thanks for those who asked for me.
| Castle: Force-Fire: As a matter of fact....if things go as planned, there might be a few updates for Gravity in GR. Still waiting to see what Colin comes up with... |
Something Force_Fire pointed out to me in a private discussion is that Singularity actually has 3 second cast times on its attacks. Since Castle announced that they hope to reduce the cast times on /grav, it would probably good to also make note of those for the pet.
After a bit of discussion, Arcanaville has a logical idea for Dimension Shift.
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If the animation times aren't sped up, I think making Propel a cone would be a good idea if the change wouldn't negatively affect the accuracy, end cost, or recharge.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
What I suggested to Castle a while ago was to apply a -regen -recovery to targets within Dimension shift for the duration of the effect so that they could not actually get *stronger* while within it, and then apply a random effect to the targets from a list: smashing Dot, fire DoT, cold DoT/-rech, confuse on expiration, stun on expiration. Get creative.
The power is called "Dimension shift." That means the targets are supposed to be shifted out of our dimension. Nothing in the description of the power says we're supposed to send them to an especially friendly dimension while they are gone. |
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That might be even better than the AOE option, thematically, since Propelled objects travel in a straight line and really should flatten everything in their path as they get to their final target(s). The downside is that if you use it on the three guys that are really close to you it might not hit all of them, whereas if it were an AOE it definitely would.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
making Propel a cone would be a good idea
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I've always wanted to see an AoE version of Lift.
Now obviously this presents all kinds of problems due to the cottage rule and power replacement but I would still love to see it.
A knockup field would also be nice to see if an AoE lift couldn't be done for some reason.
Call the power Reverse Gravity and it would be appropriate for either effect.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Well, several things here:
1. Controllers have containment. Double damage on anything held, immob'd, etc. (not *all* controls but quite a bit will set up containment.) Land that first hold, you're doubling damage. 2. Dominators had a problem with - using the devs description, which was very fitting - of being "jeckyl and hyde." They had lousy damage, no containment, etc. until Domination was ready, then *bam* they were godly... until it dropped, which was a driving force behind people trying for perma-dom. Adjusting the damage lessened that *greatly.* You've now got formerly-Dom level damage at all times. 3. Dominators are control/damage ATs to begin with. Controllers are not. Dominators got a damage buff because they were not fitting their role as well as they could - and they are now. So, yeah, an overall damage buff for controllers? I wouldn't expect to see it, frankly. Individual power adjustments like Propel? Sure. (Edit: And I'm saying that as someone who's gotten two decidedly non-high-damage combos to 50 - Ice/Emp and Earth/FF.) |
But Lift is identical to Mind Control's Levitate, which does do Tier 2 damage on Controllers. Lift's lowered damage on Controllers is baffling, really.
Propel needs damage buff. I mean seriously.
A Buff Thread for Mastering the Universe
Ah, Gravity Control. For some of its fun and unique quirks, it's marred by those same oddities that make it difficult to use to the same effectiveness as other control sets. I hereby offer a set of suggestions to buff the set without breaking the cottage rule. My views are colored by my own experiences so some things may seem different from other people's opinions. Also, I won't be going in order since I'll be explaining my reasoning for some of these.
I think a special mention should be made for phasing/intangibility as a whole. Considering almost nothing resists intangibility, boosting magnitude doesn't seem like it has use. I propose that Intangibility enhancements be changed from boosting magnitude to boosting duration. Also, I suggest that Dimension Shift, Black Hole, Sonic Cage, Detention Field, and Phase Shift all be standardised to these rules and allow Intangibility slotting. I understand that it may not be feasible due to coding difficulties but I feel this would be a much better option.
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