GR and market ruminations...
By
Aluminum_Dave,
Posted on: 2010-03-31 10:02 in The Market and Inventions
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Emphasis mine. I'm unsure how you interpret that from what Posi said. He doesn't mention the villain market at all, but states that a merged market is forecast to introduce "NEW" problems that they would like to try to avoid. Hence the market "fixes" in the works. Am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's not what he said.
He said: (a) they cannot merge the markets because it is too technically hard. There's some good discussion and some long rambles by me on this over in the GR forum in EvilGeko's "No market merger?" thread. As best we can tell, they may have some sort of crazy, proprietary DB or at least very complex DB underlying the markets. Regardless of what's really there, the devs are afraid of screwing up the markets at a technology level, not necessarily at an economic level. (b) GR with no merged markets was predicted to be bad for the villain market. This is what they were forecasting. So they have plans to implement things about the market. Personally, I await these things with great trepidation, but I am glad they're going to try something. |
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Of course, the Devs could then either:|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
To steal a tagline from the current U.S. President's campaign "Now that is change I can believe in!"
I'd love that price cap in place. I'd get in line with my 200M bids and then find out where people were gathering to sell things off market for more.  |
A)Block players from bidding more than 200M through those trades (simply auto-complete trade after 200M has been spent) or
B)Prevent IOs from being sold between 'live' players at all, which would necessitate either use of the Market or SG invites so you could take them from bins.
There's always a way to screw the players, the Devs here are pretty nice though. I wonder if any of them have GMd RPGs before where they had to deal with Monty Haul scenarios, etc.
Anyway, I think we all agree price caps don't work. If the Devs are worried about stuff going for more than Inf cap, they need to either increase the drop rate on those items, make them accessible by other means or perhaps lower the personal inf cap? I'm not even sure if the latter would do anything, given that you'd just fill slots with empty bids, they would just be 1 billion bids instead of 2 billion.
In the end, they might be better off just adding some MASSIVE Inf sinks into the game, or taxing us.
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Price caps mean i'm setting up a tent under the base portal in cap and running my own trading floor.
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He didn't? His latest quote was this.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
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Current plan (EVERYTHING is subject to change once beta testing begins): You take enhancements, recipes, inspirations, and slotted enhancements with you. Inf. goes into escrow along with Supergroup status. Escrowed stuff is returned to you when you switch back. As for market problems: yes, we know what the specific problems with the markets are and yes, we have solutions to those problems in the works that does not involve having to merge the market. We did some "economic forecasts" of what a merged market would do and were not happy with the NEW problems that cropped up in that crystal ball. Our upcoming solution hopes to tackle the current problems without making new ones. |
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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I'd have to say you are inferring that all problems are very bad things.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
He didn't? His latest quote was this.
Emphasis, mine. Sounds like "very bad things will happen if the markets were merged" to me. |
For example, a new problem from a merged market could include people getting angry about intermingling heroes and villains stuff. Plenty of people have objected to that since Day 1.
Not to mention it is just an economic forcast they made. This would not be in the same vein as "the markets would break and become nonfunctional." I mean to my mind that would be a very bad thing while people posting complaints would be status quo whether things change or not.
One economic forcast (which I believe would be wrong but often see people claim) is there is not enough activity to sustain two markets. As though the villain players would drag down the hero market. However since many of us play both sides when we are playing our villains we are doing nothing to support the blue market.
So it really could mean so many things that it is almost meaningless.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
He doesn't mention what happens to merits. Or salvage. I'm pretty sure salvage would be treated like recipes, but I'm curious about the merits. It does sound like we'll be able to smuggle goods across the border, but not money. I'm not sure how that will work out.
Positron sounds so confident in that post, but nothing they've ever said or done about the market gives me any reason to believe that confidence is justified. Whatever they do, it's sure to cause some chaos in the market, and that has usually been profitable for me, so I'm not too worried.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I was gonna verbally kick UberGuy in the shins, but i see a few posters already beat me to it.
I still wish I knew what the devs forcasted. I'm willing to bet though that they predicted something that would work to the benifit of people who actually use this forum, at the expense of everyone else, so they're going to go the other way and do something that works to the benifits of the unwashed masses and leaves us swearing up and down how the devs "ruined" the market.
Sounds like fun!
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Last time they "ruined" the market didn't help the unwashed masses... or at least the last time I'm thinking of. [Merits hollowing out the sub-50 game was an unexpected consequence, methinks.]
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I was gonna verbally kick UberGuy in the shins, but i see a few posters already beat me to it.
I still wish I knew what the devs forcasted. I'm willing to bet though that they predicted something that would work to the benifit of people who actually use this forum, at the expense of everyone else, so they're going to go the other way and do something that works to the benifits of the unwashed masses and leaves us swearing up and down how the devs "ruined" the market. Sounds like fun! |
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I know what my forecast for a market merger is: something very similar to the economic effects when East Germany and West Germany merged.
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I still wish I knew what the devs forcasted.
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Would you care to elaborate and explain your conclusion? |
Originally Posted by Katie V
I know what my forecast for a market merger is: something very similar to the economic effects when East Germany and West Germany merged.
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As far as I know no one was both an East German and a West German at the same time and despite the silly labels influence and infamy are earned in the game by the same means at the same amounts. A Rikti defeated would award the same amount of influence to a hero as infamy to a villain. A quartermaster would give a villain the same amount for a recipe or salvage as a hero side store.
The only economic disparity between the two sides is there are more heroes than villains so more total influence vs infamy is likely and heroes had a headstart to earn more and that headstart preceded bases which ended up siphoning off inf from characters to prestige.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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The added part I suppose was taken from context. People were saying that GR would introduce problems for the BM (only), and he responded with an acknowledgment that the devs did indeed predict (NEW) problems that they will take steps to fix. Since there are not a lot of existing WW-specific complaints, and plenty of existing complaints about the BM, and all the player predictions of issues are regarding the BM.
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Originally Posted by Mandur12
Emphasis mine. I'm unsure how you interpret that from what Posi said. He doesn't mention the villain market at all, but states that a merged market is forecast to introduce "NEW" problems that they would like to try to avoid. Hence the market "fixes" in the works. Am I missing something?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yeah, nevermind. That's what I get for having read that post of Posi's after a night of no sleep. I came away with him predicting problems after side switching, not after a merge.
I too wonder what they predicted would happen.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Cats and dogs living together. Mass hysteria.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah, nevermind. That's what I get for having read that post of Posi's after a night of no sleep. I came away with him predicting problems after side switching, not after a merge.
I too wonder what they predicted would happen. |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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this
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Originally Posted by black_barrier
i'm accolading redside and playing/io'ing blue.
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Yeah, no reason to do anything else from a powergamer perspective.
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Originally Posted by Epic_
this
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RP?|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
The thing that interests me is the question: Which way will the most people go? Will it be Brutes and MMs headed heroside? Or will it be scrappers, controllers... what WOULD people bring V-side?
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Can't think of any other reasons off the top of my head.
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My City Was Gone
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Posi on the market is like GWB on Weapons of Mass Destruction.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
Positron sounds so confident in that post, but nothing they've ever said or done about the market gives me any reason to believe that confidence is justified.
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Much bluster and confidence generated by wishful thinking.
But marketeers are the cockroaches of CoH- we'll adapt and survive whatever toxic environment they manage to cook up.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I was referring more to the PvP snafu. They tried to make it work for everyone, but instead it drove PvPers away, and the people the changes were aimed at (PvEers) had an even harder time adapting, so they wouldn't pvp anymore, either.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Last time they "ruined" the market didn't help the unwashed masses... or at least the last time I'm thinking of. [Merits hollowing out the sub-50 game was an unexpected consequence, methinks.]
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Now here we have a system that a small number of players use very well, that most other players complain about the inequities of, that the devs want more people to use. And the people who use the system "very well" want a small list of changes that would presumably work better for THEM than it would everyone else, but might serve to alienate the rest of the playerbase more (note that this is conjecture on how the devs think and not my personal opinion). Sound familiar so far? Because that's what PvP was. How did the devs respond? They ignored EVERYthing the players suggested and tried to make the system more dumbed-down and friendly, thus alienating most of the people who liked it the way it was.
Posi and co have already stood fast on their decision to not merge the markets (a suggestion most marketers agree would be a good thing), and said they have other fixes in store, even though no one else here seems to have thought of any other way to fix the redside supply problem in relation to the blueside inf-and-supply glut.
Maybe they're changing more IO bonuses? I know the cottage rule is in effect, but who honestly slots for "XP debt reduction"? I think that by making the more sought-after bonuses more available in more sets, that players would "spread out" and get different IOs instead of everyone going after the same 3 sets and 3 uniques. I think that would be the best solution other than a Market Merge, but mweh.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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I doubt even the devs are goofy enough to try that.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Maybe they're changing more IO bonuses? I know the cottage rule is in effect, but who honestly slots for "XP debt reduction"? I think that by making the more sought-after bonuses more available in more sets, that players would "spread out" and get different IOs instead of everyone going after the same 3 sets and 3 uniques.
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the perceived 'best' sets will always command a premium and everything else will be largely ignored except by frankenslotters, whether the 'worthless' bonuses are genuinely pointless (like debt reduction) or just not quite as good as the 'best' stuff.
and they can't make everything 'the best' for obvious reasons.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
well the devs foisted ED onto us in order to pave the way for inventions and as an aside the market. The cottage rule needs to go back ALOT further than just 'oh we didnt think these inventions through but well leave it anyways because that will mess something else up so we'll try this something else that we cant say about because it of course reeks of ED all over again and the trouble that caused'
Changing drop rates wont fix the red market, unless you do that only for 1 side.
Merging the market is a technical problem, that can be fixed but will take paitence on the users of that market.
changing the merit costs wont fix anything either, because the horde mentallity is deeply entrenched in redsiders and we need more tfs.
honestly theres one fix that i can see....its exactly like a merge without the technical snafu.
Everyone has to pull thier bids/sales/holds off the market, let the devs wipe it and link the heroside to the villian side. done.
Its a terrible idea i know, because someone else didnt think of it. Like Posi or Castle
Captain: it's not just a technical problem. According to Posi's post, they have "economic forecasts" that a marged market might cause more problems than it solves. They won't say what those problems might be, though.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
If they were to add a few more villain strike forces and set the merits/hour on them to something favorable, that should bring down prices, at least on some high end things. I wouldn't call it a fix, but at least it's something. Isn't there a level range hole with no redside SF's at all? If I were a dev, I'd find that a bit embarrassing this many years after release.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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Yes there is a few holes, if I can recall correctly from just the SF standpoint no co-op.|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
If they were to add a few more villain strike forces and set the merits/hour on them to something favorable, that should bring down prices, at least on some high end things. I wouldn't call it a fix, but at least it's something. Isn't there a level range hole with no redside SF's at all? If I were a dev, I'd find that a bit embarrassing this many years after release.
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There is 10-15; 30-35 and 40-45. There is trials you can do or Oro arcs, but there is no true Strike Force.
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I'm sure they did economic modeling of Merits and Tickets too.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Captain: it's not just a technical problem. According to Posi's post, they have "economic forecasts" that a marged market might cause more problems than it solves. They won't say what those problems might be, though.
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Look at the state both markets are in right now.
As such, I'm inclined respond with "your forecasts are, at best, complete crap, so **** your economic modeling and find someone who knows how to do it right".
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I'd love that price cap in place. I'd get in line with my 200M bids and then find out where people were gathering to sell things off market for more.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba