Would buff/buff AT be overpowered?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2010-03-22 08:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
If by overpowered you mean gimped, then yes.
Gimped? How could it possibly be gimped? It wouldn't be aimed at people who want to solo, yes, but gimped?
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I think you're just missing the point. Everything in this game has to be able to solo.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
Gimped? How could it possibly be gimped? It wouldn't be aimed at people who want to solo, yes, but gimped?
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Everything has to be able to contribute damage.
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Everything has to be able to contribute damage - why? Think outside the box man! lol
Okay just thinking in an off reality that the devs would think this to be a good idea: The answer is not a straight Yes or No. I would think that it would be with some combinations, but with others it would be so gimped that no one would even want to play it (unless for concept reasons of course :P ).
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It's tricky to say if this would be overpowered or not. Comparing a team of 8 Defenders to a team of 4 Blasters and 4 Buff/Buff characters I think that the Defender team would be more powerful. On the other hand for teams with a more random array of characters the impact of a Buff/Buff would be a lot more noticeable. Probably still not overpowered but getting closer.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
Imagine an Empathy/Traps or a Forcefields/Thermal or a Cold/Dark. Would a buff/buff set be viable? Those of us who love support roles would love to see this I think, but would it be overpowered?
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In any case it's academic, I agree with Dechs and Silverado. All characters should be contributing to damage. This isn't WoW where healing is a cornerstone of team play. Buffs in general are always nice and very powerful but they aren't required. Damage is always required so to quote Starship Trooper: "I only have one rule. Everyone fights."
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| You could have it so the secondary is half as powerful as if it were a primary. |
The trick with buff/buff is that with nobody around, it is subpar. But on a full team? It threatens to render others obsolete. Each buff/debuff set has a weakness. Kinetics supplies strong offense to a team, but has little way to protect them. Radiation weakens enemies, but has limited healing and buffing. Forcefields makes a team far more durable and can bounce enemies, but has no way to heal or weaken foes. The team is choosing a strength and weakness when they choose a support character, and needs more people to get more support. The more support they choose, the safer they become, but they do so by sacrificing more 'direct damage' type characters.
Now throw in a support/support character. They pick up a forcefield/kinetics that supplies nigh-invulnerability alongside a damage cap, endless endurance, debuffs, and a bit heal. Not strong enough? Throw in a Radiation/sonic supporter, with shield to protect for the rare times the forcefielded get hit, more mez protection, a damage buff, a recharge buff, a rez buff, damage resistance debuffs x2, debuffs for all else, and another heal. They fill the rest of the team with blasters (and a scrapper if a tank is needed) and go forth destroying everything in the game.
Can an entire support team rule this game anywise? Sure. An all radiation emission team is devastating. But at the center of that are some weaker characters with a lower starting offense, lower damage caps, and lower hitpoints. Concentrating all the support into minimal numbers of team members makes this sacrifice unnecessary, and makes stuff out of whack even more. (Never mind that the support/support dudes make the control/support or support/damage, or damage/support people unneeded.)
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Because a pure support character is nothing but a parasite - incapable of doing anything on their own. What would such a character do if they didn't have the opportunity to team? Just not play the game? No thanks, what a waste of time and subscription fees. Meanwhile, my Defenders and Controllers can solo just fine, if slowly, because they can do at least some damage. I'm not cut off from the game if I don't happen to be teaming, which a buff/buff character would be.
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Originally Posted by Adelie
Everything has to be able to contribute damage - why? Think outside the box man! lol
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Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
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agree !!!
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Originally Posted by Duck Dim Sum
Because a pure support character is nothing but a parasite - incapable of doing anything on their own. What would such a character do if they didn't have the opportunity to team? Just not play the game? No thanks, what a waste of time and subscription fees. Meanwhile, my Defenders and Controllers can solo just fine, if slowly, because they can do at least some damage. I'm not cut off from the game if I don't happen to be teaming, which a buff/buff character would be.
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All I want is a Melee/Debuff AT, now that would be a lot of fun.
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Originally Posted by Square_One
All I want is a Melee/Debuff AT, now that would be a lot of fun.
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there is already range/debuff in defenders and corruptors, melee falls behind range unless that melee has protection ie scrappers, tanks etc.
why would you want something that appears to be sub par and worse at a job then something already available? Do you just prefer melee over range?
This is a real question no snark intented.
Because its interesting and different. Variety, people, is the spice of life. My original draw to this game was how different all the ATs were, back when controllers had massive control and no real damage to speak of pre-32 (before containment). It gave a whole different feel to the game than playing a blaster or defender. I want to see more of that, more variety. I want to see more innovation.
Dual blades with the combo thing was a good idea. Dual pistols with selectable damage type and secondary effect is a good idea though it doesn't go far enough. I'm hoping for new unique ATs and I'm hoping that all powersets from here on out put something new and unique into the game - not just reskins of powers we already have. That gets boring.
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Just because something is unique doesn't mean it's good. The AT you're describing would have ZERO soloing capabilities whatsoever, pretty much FORCING you to team for your whole career. Plus, why would I want a player who only buffs/debuffs, when I can have a defender or controller who can do the same thing AND deal damage?|
Originally Posted by Adelie
Because its interesting and different. Variety, people, is the spice of life. My original draw to this game was how different all the ATs were, back when controllers had massive control and no real damage to speak of pre-32 (before containment). It gave a whole different feel to the game than playing a blaster or defender. I want to see more of that, more variety. I want to see more innovation.
Dual blades with the combo thing was a good idea. Dual pistols with selectable damage type and secondary effect is a good idea though it doesn't go far enough. I'm hoping for new unique ATs and I'm hoping that all powersets from here on out put something new and unique into the game - not just reskins of powers we already have. That gets boring. |
Such an AT would be completely ignored by 90% of the playerbase, and the few players who actually do create these characters would never be invited to teams because controllers and defenders are better at it.
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The problem I see is the opposite: controls are highly undervalued, as is defender offense. With this, you'd get the worst of the 'just support me' players validated. Hey hey! empathy/kinetics: "Shut up and heal/speedboost meh!"|
Originally Posted by Smash_Zone
Just because something is unique doesn't mean it's good. The AT you're describing would have ZERO soloing capabilities whatsoever, pretty much FORCING you to team for your whole career. Plus, why would I want a player who only buffs/debuffs, when I can have a defender or controller who can do the same thing AND deal damage?
Such an AT would be completely ignored by 90% of the playerbase, and the few players who actually do create these characters would never be invited to teams because controllers and defenders are better at it. |
Get enough buffs/debuffs, no reason to invite that "annoying controller that holds stuff that could be herded!" Or that "Idiot defender that uses their scream attacks, whatever those do!"
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I agree with you. I rarely solo, because I find team play richer. Sure, there are frsutrations that come with it, but the powers play off each other so much that you have a good deal of fun.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
The problem I see is the opposite: controls are highly undervalued, as is defender offense. With this, you'd get the worst of the 'just support me' players validated. Hey hey! empathy/kinetics: "Shut up and heal/speedboost meh!"
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An Emp/Kin would be extremely valuable to a team, but you'd catch grief from folks with builds that constantly need buffs to be viable (or think they need them to be playable). I rarely play my Fire/Kin because it turns into, "Speed boost - I don't want to keep asking" when I'm in the middle of an attack chain or something. As if a /Kin's sole contribution to a team is to pass Speed Boost and wait for the next round of speed boost.
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An actual melee set would be doing more damage than a ranged set and especially if that set is the primary. Debuffs in the secondary would generally fill the role of protection. I really enjoy blapper or blapper-style toons quite a bit, and even if certain debuffs wouldn't be as protective as shields/whatnot, it'd make the game a bit more difficult, and thus more enjoyable for me.|
Originally Posted by Lucky
there is already range/debuff in defenders and corruptors, melee falls behind range unless that melee has protection ie scrappers, tanks etc.
why would you want something that appears to be sub par and worse at a job then something already available? Do you just prefer melee over range? This is a real question no snark intented. |
Dark Melee/Dark Miasma?
Who cares if you can't solo? You'll be the most important member of the team. Support simply rules this game. Sure, you'll need some offensive output too, but that's what the other teammates are for!
And yes, it would be overpowered: in a team setting.
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I don't think innovation and variety mean what you think they do. You're asking for more specialization, not less.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
Because its interesting and different. Variety, people, is the spice of life. My original draw to this game was how different all the ATs were, back when controllers had massive control and no real damage to speak of pre-32 (before containment). It gave a whole different feel to the game than playing a blaster or defender. I want to see more of that, more variety. I want to see more innovation.
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Controllers are MORE flexible now. They are better able to handle the situation when a team does not consist of the "Tank/Healer/Nuker" triad.
My secondary acct buff/buff toon? Not so much. My primary acct toon? Way, way op'ed.
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Part of this, I'd hope, would be handled by the AT's inherent or power combinations. i.e. throw some mez protection as the inherent so that's one less thing to make the AT squishy.|
Originally Posted by Lucky
there is already range/debuff in defenders and corruptors, melee falls behind range unless that melee has protection ie scrappers, tanks etc.
why would you want something that appears to be sub par and worse at a job then something already available? Do you just prefer melee over range? This is a real question no snark intented. |
Melee not only does more damage vs fewer targets (blasts tend to do more damage vs more targets) but it's a completely different concept. The attack methods are different and the ATs that tend to attack at range have crap HP. Making a melee/(de)buff AT justifies scrapper HP resulting in a hardier character overall.
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It's an interesting idea. I think part of the problem would be that it works a lot better with some (de)buff powersets than others. A Melee/Empath would really suck for example while a Melee/Traps or Melee/Kin would work reasonably well.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Part of this, I'd hope, would be handled by the AT's inherent or power combinations. i.e. throw some mez protection as the inherent so that's one less thing to make the AT squishy.
Melee not only does more damage vs fewer targets (blasts tend to do more damage vs more targets) but it's a completely different concept. The attack methods are different and the ATs that tend to attack at range have crap HP. Making a melee/(de)buff AT justifies scrapper HP resulting in a hardier character overall. |
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Originally Posted by Duck Dim Sum
Because a pure support character is nothing but a parasite - incapable of doing anything on their own. What would such a character do if they didn't have the opportunity to team? Just not play the game? No thanks, what a waste of time and subscription fees. Meanwhile, my Defenders and Controllers can solo just fine, if slowly, because they can do at least some damage. I'm not cut off from the game if I don't happen to be teaming, which a buff/buff character would be.
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this guy is right! you can only have one character and you have to play only it!
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There is something called balance, playability, fun-factor, game concept, and natural selection...and then there is variety.
Originally Posted by Adelie
Because its interesting and different. Variety, people, is the spice of life. My original draw to this game was how different all the ATs were, back when controllers had massive control and no real damage to speak of pre-32 (before containment). It gave a whole different feel to the game than playing a blaster or defender. I want to see more of that, more variety. I want to see more innovation.
Dual blades with the combo thing was a good idea. Dual pistols with selectable damage type and secondary effect is a good idea though it doesn't go far enough. I'm hoping for new unique ATs and I'm hoping that all powersets from here on out put something new and unique into the game - not just reskins of powers we already have. That gets boring.
Just because you could hypothetically do it, doesn't mean you should, purely for the sake of "variety".
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Originally Posted by Square_One
An actual melee set would be doing more damage than a ranged set and especially if that set is the primary. Debuffs in the secondary would generally fill the role of protection. I really enjoy blapper or blapper-style toons quite a bit, and even if certain debuffs wouldn't be as protective as shields/whatnot, it'd make the game a bit more difficult, and thus more enjoyable for me.
Dark Melee/Dark Miasma? |
hmm that does sound interesting dark melee/dark miasma sounds like it would totally wreck.
Imagine an Empathy/Traps or a Forcefields/Thermal or a Cold/Dark. Would a buff/buff set be viable? Those of us who love support roles would love to see this I think, but would it be overpowered? You could have it so the secondary is half as powerful as if it were a primary.
Thoughts?