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Okay, I'll admit, that defense is likely doing something for you...just...not enough.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
You know, I WANT to disagree with this and say that the extra DEF is worth the END cost. However, I have to admit that I don't bother with Weave except on toons that do have the extra defense from IO's.
So, while I disagree in THEORY, it seems that I generally go along with your position in PRACTICE. |
Now me, if I was going to make a DA/ Tanker, would likely have the Steadfast +3% IO waiting for it, so I might as well grab Weave as I level up. I can always turn the power off.
But I also start slotting sets at lvl 30, with lvl 33 sets.
Being a Tanker, I wouldn't worry about DPS, so on a DA/ I'd be going for +DEF (and while I prefere to keep all the Positional Defenses Even, on a Tanker, I'd likely go with Melee/AOE and worry less about range...MAYBE), +END (Impervium Armor 4 slotted), likely get +Health along the way.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Actually BrandX you raise a valid point there with Shield Armor. I like building my tanks, I love making them unstoppable machines of war xD, though At the same time, I want to be able to pummel my foes into submission, so all of my tanker builds are tight, but I digress.
In my experience, you are quite correct, Shield Armor, I found to be very lackluster, as I was leveling up I found i had to almost constantly swallow a purple pill to deal with large mobs or i'd face plant every time, One with the Shield made little impact. I managed to skip tough/weave, but using IO's got over that magical 45% defense and it let me pick up a little more damage and end management.
I do have a question relating to dark though.
I built my fire/fire/fire tanker on +HP +Regen and +Rech as far as IO bonuses went (Tough is a must boy does it make a difference on a Resist set), and it is truely a beast, just like my shield/electric, I mean come on, Buildup+Fiery Embrace+Fire Sword Circle+Fire Ball+Combustion... even consume O.O, not enough AoE glory for you? xD
If I were to build a dark armor tanker using the same stratergy, would It work just as well? (I imagine better given some of the soft control), Heal up faster, more HP to dip into and more passive healing, if so, what primary would work the best? Perhaps Dark/Dark?
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
Quote:
Question.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Being a Tanker, I wouldn't worry about DPS.
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Why wouldnt you worry about the DPS for the Tanker?In a team or solo more DPS means enemies fall faster.Meaning you dont have to tank for very long, and that usually negates the need for the Fighting Pool all together.
If you kill it, you dont have to tank it.If people belive that Tankers dont do damage, then they need to find out why they belive in such fantasies.
I have no issues solo, or in a team with my SD/Axe Tanker, and at level 40 he has no Tough or Weave.The same can be said about my Fire/Fire Tanker and my Ice/Ice Tanker.
Its more about how a player thinks and plays his builds then the build its self.
Iv recently discovered im a Min/Maxer, but not in the traditional sense.Where I read Effect numbers first vs damage numbers when it comes to Tankers, Scrappers, and Defenders.
Other traditional Min/Maxers want the best possible personal numbers they can get, even if the set doesnt out perform a lesser played set.Such as Willpower vs Fire Armor or even Dark Armor.
In the long run, many of the lesser played sets get bad reps because people acctually have to work for there gravy, but the pay off is better then the usual with more used sets.
Can a WP/SS Tanker fight well and hold Agro?Absolutly, provided its using its Taunt and keeps hitting something with its ST attacks.
Can a WP/SS Tanker fight better then a SD/Mace Tanker and hold more agro?Absolutly not.The reason why I say this, is because of the massive AoE damage the SD/Mace build pumps out.Yes, by the numbers the SD/Mace Tanker is supposedly weaker in overall Toughness and Survivability.However, the SD/Mace Tanker can survive better by killing everything in its path as if it was a joke.
When you run in with a WP/SS Tank with Rage running, then Foot Stomp for over 160 damage, then start working on the mob with your ST attacks, throwing in a 350 damage KO blow on occassion, your doing alright.
When you run in with a SD/Mace Tank, its a whole diffrent story.You get in the mob, trigger your Build Up, Whirling mace for 160 AoE Damage, Crowd Control upto 10 targets for 250 damage, then use your sheild charge right after it and smack the entire mob for over 450 damage, you just out performed the Min/Maxed WP/SS Mid's build by a HUGE margin using just SOs.Lets not forget Clobber and the rest of the Amp'd ST attacks Mace gives you from AAO.
Dark Armor has ALOT of tools, and is better used with a Melee set like Electrical Melee or Dark Melee.The goal being Global Recharge, Recovery, and Regen when you aspire to IOs.
Can Dark Armor out perform Willpower?Yes, yes it can.
At higher levels on my Spines/Invln Scrapper, ill be very capable of Tanking for teams.Are Scrappers ment to Tank?No, they are not.Can they Tank?Yes, they can.
Dark armors immobilize protection is in CoD
Peeps that dont like CoD need immob protection. THATs why they take CJ. And anyone complaining about the endo cost of CJ has to be joking.
Why DA/ and not /DA?
You get OG at 18 instead of 35?
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I went dark/dark since it fit thematically and it gave me a self-heal in the primary AND a self-heal in the secondary.|
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
If I were to build a dark armor tanker using the same stratergy, would It work just as well? (I imagine better given some of the soft control), Heal up faster, more HP to dip into and more passive healing, if so, what primary would work the best? Perhaps Dark/Dark?
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Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Dark armors immobilize protection is in CoD
Peeps that dont like CoD need immob protection. THATs why they take CJ. And anyone complaining about the endo cost of CJ has to be joking. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I disagree that Tough is wasted on Dark Armour (or Fire or Elec Armour)
It effectively costs one power - you can usually replace your Tier 2 attack with Kick or Boxing without a huge damage loss.
It halves the amount of incoming smashing/lethal damage - instead of taking 1/2 you take 1/4. This is the most common form of damage in game and also very common for big chunky melee hits.
I'd agree that building up Defence is not a great plan, since you have little to start with, but Tough will stack with your native armours really well on any exotic resistance Tank. I usually pick it up in the 30s and really notice the difference. The end cost of running Tough is saved by the lower reliance on Dark Regen.
I think Tough is a must have on any Resistance set, and I plan to put it on any future dark/dark I create xD
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
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My bad Fire. When I said I wouldn't worry about DPS on a Tanker, I meant Single Target DPS. I wouldn't try to go for what I would consider the best single target DPS on any of my tankers.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Question.
Why wouldnt you worry about the DPS for the Tanker?In a team or solo more DPS means enemies fall faster.Meaning you dont have to tank for very long, and that usually negates the need for the Fighting Pool all together. If you kill it, you dont have to tank it.If people belive that Tankers dont do damage, then they need to find out why they belive in such fantasies. I have no issues solo, or in a team with my SD/Axe Tanker, and at level 40 he has no Tough or Weave.The same can be said about my Fire/Fire Tanker and my Ice/Ice Tanker. Its more about how a player thinks and plays his builds then the build its self. Iv recently discovered im a Min/Maxer, but not in the traditional sense.Where I read Effect numbers first vs damage numbers when it comes to Tankers, Scrappers, and Defenders. Other traditional Min/Maxers want the best possible personal numbers they can get, even if the set doesnt out perform a lesser played set.Such as Willpower vs Fire Armor or even Dark Armor. In the long run, many of the lesser played sets get bad reps because people acctually have to work for there gravy, but the pay off is better then the usual with more used sets. Can a WP/SS Tanker fight well and hold Agro?Absolutly, provided its using its Taunt and keeps hitting something with its ST attacks. Can a WP/SS Tanker fight better then a SD/Mace Tanker and hold more agro?Absolutly not.The reason why I say this, is because of the massive AoE damage the SD/Mace build pumps out.Yes, by the numbers the SD/Mace Tanker is supposedly weaker in overall Toughness and Survivability.However, the SD/Mace Tanker can survive better by killing everything in its path as if it was a joke. When you run in with a WP/SS Tank with Rage running, then Foot Stomp for over 160 damage, then start working on the mob with your ST attacks, throwing in a 350 damage KO blow on occassion, your doing alright. When you run in with a SD/Mace Tank, its a whole diffrent story.You get in the mob, trigger your Build Up, Whirling mace for 160 AoE Damage, Crowd Control upto 10 targets for 250 damage, then use your sheild charge right after it and smack the entire mob for over 450 damage, you just out performed the Min/Maxed WP/SS Mid's build by a HUGE margin using just SOs.Lets not forget Clobber and the rest of the Amp'd ST attacks Mace gives you from AAO. Dark Armor has ALOT of tools, and is better used with a Melee set like Electrical Melee or Dark Melee.The goal being Global Recharge, Recovery, and Regen when you aspire to IOs. Can Dark Armor out perform Willpower?Yes, yes it can. At higher levels on my Spines/Invln Scrapper, ill be very capable of Tanking for teams.Are Scrappers ment to Tank?No, they are not.Can they Tank?Yes, they can. |
Why? Because to obtain it, usually means sacrificing additional defenses (ie...you need to go for those +RCH bonuses).
Which in normal game play, you don't need the top ST DPS...but having the best possible defense on your tanker can sometimes come in handy in normal gameplay.
Also lets go with how I personally built my only 50 tank. A WP/EM. Before she was dismantled (*glares at EM changes*) of IO sets, I had worked hard to get her to the best defense one could get on a tanker (outside of adding Aid Self to the build, as I just hate the tri-corder look THAT much, that it really really REALLY fit my concept...which has only ever fit one toon of mine)...that I was able to tank LR while he was charged up by 4 towers, while the rest of the team took down the towers, with just my tanker and skittles.
No support from anyone else on the team.
That to me, is what I build a tanker for.
And while yes, WP's taunt aura is weak, if I wanted to tank an AV, I would have taunt on any tanker combo.
I have yet to see a tanker who could keep an AVs attention solely focused on them, without the AV at least turning, glaring, throwing some sort of attack at a squishy (which may kill them), and then turning their attention back to the tanker.
Those who use taun often, I don't see this happening.
Now just normal missions. Pffft. If I'm on a squishy who can't survive that well, all I really care about is someone who can take the aggro, and less worried about what's left.
And outside of Shield Charging white minions, how fast do you kill things that are possibly +2 lvls higher?
How does your tanker handle the STF, ITF, 5thTF and LGTF? I'm a TF junkie! I run PuG TFs all the time! This means I'm not picking and choosing my teammates. Oh yes, I may find a description that fits what I want and try for it, but not always.
To me, if my tank can't survive these, I need to keep tweaking them. But that's my playstyle. From my experience, you're amp'ed up Shield/ Tanker, is going to fall to some of the tougher AVs without backup.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
After a great deal of frustration playing my spines/dark scrapper, I scrapped his build and started all over again, ditching a lot of purples and the like in exchange for a more defensive focus.
Dark armour benefits so much from even a bit of defence. I worked to get 32.5% melee, with something like 25% smashing/lethal. I notice ranged opponents all the more, but what I really find sticking with me out of playing him now is how badly I want gauntlet and an area-effecting taunt to force opponents into melee range with me.
Dark Armour has an amazing heal, great resistances, and some fun stuff in its basket of tricks. If I was able to rely on teammates to provide it, I would definitely consider running things like Cloak of Fear (for the -tohit).
Oh, and:
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This statement casts all of this poster's commentary into question. Are you certain you're talking about tankers here, and not scrappers?
| I have yet to see a tanker who could keep an AVs attention solely focused on them, without the AV at least turning, glaring, throwing some sort of attack at a squishy (which may kill them), and then turning their attention back to the tanker. |
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At least in my play experience with dark armor, ranged damage has always been an achilles heel.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
I notice ranged opponents all the more, but what I really find sticking with me out of playing him now is how badly I want gauntlet and an area-effecting taunt to force opponents into melee range with me. |
No fuel for DR to replenish the green n blue bar!
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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It's not one I noticed before now - this character was sitting idle for most of the past two years, leaving him without any clear combat experience with larger spawns. The ranged damage makes me wonder about the viability of setting up a dark armourer with high ranged def.
Dark Armor can be pretty awesome with some IO investment. You can manage to get near softcapped defenses with nice resists and the best self heal in the game.
For the most part DA isn't that end heavy because of the toggles, well unless you're running CoF and Death Shroud, but because DR takes 1/3 of your endurance unslotted. This is where slotting attacks for end red and the Theft of Essence proc comes in, it works wonders in DR.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
After a great deal of frustration playing my spines/dark scrapper, I scrapped his build and started all over again, ditching a lot of purples and the like in exchange for a more defensive focus.
Dark armour benefits so much from even a bit of defence. I worked to get 32.5% melee, with something like 25% smashing/lethal. I notice ranged opponents all the more, but what I really find sticking with me out of playing him now is how badly I want gauntlet and an area-effecting taunt to force opponents into melee range with me. Dark Armour has an amazing heal, great resistances, and some fun stuff in its basket of tricks. If I was able to rely on teammates to provide it, I would definitely consider running things like Cloak of Fear (for the -tohit). Oh, and:This statement casts all of this poster's commentary into question. Are you certain you're talking about tankers here, and not scrappers? |
I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong when I see a tanker hold ALL the aggro, just by punching it.
We'll run a STF, 1 tank, 6 blasters and 1 Thermal (to keep the Tank Shielded/Healed when facing off against LR)...last time I ran STF, Ice/Ice/Ice Tanker, running both auras, and using taunt and punching, and those AVs were still going (every now and again) lets go hit a squishy, before returning to the tank.
Just got off a great ITF, had 2 tankers, both using taunt, but during that last mission, I still seemed to get blasted, and I stayed at range.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yup, +def is definitely the way to go w/resist-based sets. My Fire, Dark & Elec tanks/scrappers all have (will have) capped S/L defenses. Even getting them to the high 20s will make a marked difference in survivability. There's one regular poster who got his Dark tank's S/L & E/N defenses to softcap, a feat I haven't quite achieved yet, cuz I didn't quite like all the tradeoffs to get the E/N def that high, but I'm still working on it. Anyway, with decent resists across the board and a killer heal, adding good defenses makes Dark pretty much invincible for 98% of the game.|
Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
After a great deal of frustration playing my spines/dark scrapper, I scrapped his build and started all over again, ditching a lot of purples and the like in exchange for a more defensive focus.
Dark armour benefits so much from even a bit of defence. I worked to get 32.5% melee, with something like 25% smashing/lethal. I notice ranged opponents all the more, but what I really find sticking with me out of playing him now is how badly I want gauntlet and an area-effecting taunt to force opponents into melee range with me. |
As for Weave, I remember in the old days before IO sets, I could tell the difference on my Fire tank when I turned Weave on/off w/only CJ to stack for defense. Yes, defense matters more as you approach cap, but even at the low end, every little bit helps. Esp, if you combine insps to always make purps--you can pretty much always have a +12.5% (or higher) buff to your defense.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
The Set doesnt IO well, its hole can still be breached even with IOs (KB) and there are just more solid sets that require less effort on the part of the user.
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Completely disagree. With IOs, Dark can get sufficient KB protection for 99% of the game without taking an additional power, very significantly reduce the endurance costs and recovery potential of the set, and add a very important additional layer of damage mitigation by slotting for defense bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
The Set doesnt IO well, its hole can still be breached even with IOs (KB) and there are just more solid sets that require less effort on the part of the user.
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If that's not "IO(ing) well", I don't know what is.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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For all the money you spent on IOing a Dark, you can take a Shielder and get better performance and damage. End of story.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Completely disagree. With IOs, Dark can get sufficient KB protection for 99% of the game without taking an additional power, very significantly reduce the endurance costs and recovery potential of the set, and add a very important additional layer of damage mitigation by slotting for defense bonuses.
If that's not "IO(ing) well", I don't know what is. |
Or an Invuln or an Ice. And while 99% of the PvE game yes, you can be sufficient with a Single KB IO, most people dont IO their tank to do that short of farming. Theyre doing High Endgame content like the STF or Speed ITFs or LGTFs. Not that the Darky doesnt perform well in the later two, but overall most people likely see that it makes more sense to IO something else and play something else.
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I call BS. You can spend a ton of money on any build, and KB IOs (other than the BotZ) are simply not that expensive compared to say, the LotG +Recharge IOs you see in high recharge builds of any type. |
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
For all the money you spent on IOing a Dark, you can take a Shielder and get better performance and damage. End of story.
Or an Invuln or an Ice. And while 99% of the PvE game yes, you can be sufficient with a Single KB IO, most people dont IO their tank to do that short of farming. Theyre doing High Endgame content like the STF or Speed ITFs or LGTFs. Not that the Darky doesnt perform well in the later two, but overall most people likely see that it makes more sense to IO something else and play something else. |
Recovery and +end are the critical bonuses for Dark besides KB protection, and if you stay away from the recovery uniques, quite cheap to acquire.
Defense *can* be expensive if, for instance, you go for a soft-capped build with a lot of Kinetic Combat sets, but setting your goals more modestly (using Smashing Haymaker instead of KC for example) you can save a lot of influence. In any case, IO'ing Dark for defense is no more expensive than doing the same for any all-resist set like Electric or Fire. (Actually, it's a little easier/less expensive on Dark because of CoD.)
It's hardly a surprise that slotting for defense specifically is more expensive on Dark than on defense sets like Ice or Shield. But again, how is Dark different from Fire or Electric in that regard?
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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You can say that for pretty much anything though.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
For all the money you spent on IOing a Dark, you can take a Shielder and get better performance and damage. End of story.
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Originally Posted by Jeminiks
Or an Invuln or an Ice. And while 99% of the PvE game yes, you can be sufficient with a Single KB IO, most people dont IO their tank to do that short of farming. Theyre doing High Endgame content like the STF or Speed ITFs or LGTFs. Not that the Darky doesnt perform well in the later two, but overall most people likely see that it makes more sense to IO something else and play something else.
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I'm pretty sure he was group FA/ and ELA/ with DA/.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
I call BS. You can spend a ton of money on any build, and KB IOs (other than the BotZ) are simply not that expensive compared to say, the LotG +Recharge IOs you see in high recharge builds of any type.
Recovery and +end are the critical bonuses for Dark besides KB protection, and if you stay away from the recovery uniques, quite cheap to acquire. Defense *can* be expensive if, for instance, you go for a soft-capped build with a lot of Kinetic Combat sets, but setting your goals more modestly (using Smashing Haymaker instead of KC for example) you can save a lot of influence. In any case, IO'ing Dark for defense is no more expensive than doing the same for any all-resist set like Electric or Fire. (Actually, it's a little easier/less expensive on Dark because of CoD.) It's hardly a surprise that slotting for defense specifically is more expensive on Dark than on defense sets like Ice or Shield. But again, how is Dark different from Fire or Electric in that regard? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The sequel: you run into enemies that debuff defense and you are toast. |
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
For all the money you spent on IOing a Dark, you can take a Shielder and get better performance and damage. End of story.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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In a thread that's specifically discussing Dark Armor, saying "The Set" doesn't suggest that to me at all. But if that's what he meant, fine, he can clarify that if he likes.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'm pretty sure he was group FA/ and ELA/ with DA/.
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In any case, saying that any all-resist (or in DA's case, almost all resist) set is more expensive to soft-cap than a defense set is hardly a startling revelation. But that doesn't mean they're necessarily more expensive to IO out in general, or that they "don't IO well", whatever the heck that means.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
See, now thats my problem. In other words, people who are to lazy to get enough fun out of the game and are to focused on "Hey, i bet my build is so much better than yours." really -grinds my gears- I just dont understand, if you like some sort of powerset, you should set it out, i belive. Glad this has gone to many people in discussion too, given me a good viewpoint of dark/ 
I had one other scrapper that I retired at level 37. I have not made any other scrappers since then. My IMPRESSION was that /dark just wasn't as good as /regen, but I could be misremembering as it was quite some time ago that I IO'ed my main scrapper. Ironblade (BS/regen) is still my favorite character so I don't make any new scrappers any more. I'm sure I could make a new scrapper as fun and tough if I purpled him out, but I just do tanks instead. If I want a scrapper, I play the 'good one'.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project