Not sure there is a "hating" of Dark. But, assuming there is some feeling against it, I'd say it's this: the heal, Dark Regeneration.
Dark Regen is a GREAT heal. It can heal any damage at all, given several targets; it can bring you from a handful of hitpoints to full with as few as 2 guys nearby when it's slotted.
BUT...the Scrapper version does the same thing. As few as two enemies nearby lets my Scrapper heal up to full from any damage that hasn't killed him.
Tanks have more hit points and better resists and some other advantages, true; but a /Dark Scrapper has a lot of offensive output (not specific to /Dark, but because he's a Scrapper) and can still heal himself with one click every 10-15 seconds...and still gets the controls and wide variety of resistances that Dark gives.
In short, I think players don't hate Dark; they just get almost as much benefit from Dark as a Scrapper secondary and get the offensive perks of Scrapping to boot. So I think they are making Dark characters...just not necessarily as Tankers.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Its got an undeserved reputation as an End Hog, and some people absolutely hate running low on Endurance.
The lack of KB protection combined with a heal that requires positioning next to enemies can be a pain too, but I rarely died due to a mis-timed heal this way.
Its my only level 50 tank, and I love the set. 80% Psi resist and good End Drain resistance means you step in where many other tankers fear to tread in the 40's.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Its got an undeserved reputation as an End Hog, and some people absolutely hate running low on Endurance.
The lack of KB protection combined with a heal that requires positioning next to enemies can be a pain too, but I rarely died due to a mis-timed heal this way. Its my only level 50 tank, and I love the set. 80% Psi resist and good End Drain resistance means you step in where many other tankers fear to tread in the 40's. |
I agree with this completly. It seems like dark/ does have and undeserved reputation for being less survivable and an end hog. But, with PP, end shouldnt be a problem. I also think the reason people dont like them is because it takes more skill for the timed heal I like having a challenge. I think people just want a tank they can go get a drink and still have a full green bar, while being able to deal decent AoE damage. Maybe its because... I dont even know haha.
I should point out that I took and slotted Tough. That halves your incoming S/L damage, and makes Dark Armour much better.
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Before power customization and the option to get rid of the transparency in Cloak of Darkness, it was ugly as sin. I liked mine a lot better when I was able to make my character visible and color the fogs pink. |
Originally Posted by The Questioner
Is there anythiing thats weak about that people just hate?
Its end heavy, yes, thats what stamina is and PP, come on. I think theres more con's than pro's. |
It will or won't be an endurance hog. Everything's a toggle. Some of the toggles just aren't worth running unless you are getting specific synergies --- stuns or fears --- from your secondaries and other powers.
I made a Dark/Ice Melee tanker to check out the set. My original idea was to become a pure melee controller, with a large toolkit. I eventually respecced out of the control toggles because they weren't worth running without help from the secondary that wasn't there. That, and the kinds of control you got with Ice Melee weren't working on the ITF, and running ITFs is the main occupation of most of my levelling tankers. When the Romans don't fall down on the ice patch, you're going to get frustrated.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I haven't liked it in the past I found it very weak especially at lower levels but a few days ago I had a look at a dk/dk tank. It has 2 heals, a dmg buff, single and group fear, stuns, hold plus the end drain and I reckon it could be a ubertank. Level 8 so far I am 2boxing with a rad to get through the early levels.
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eh. I made a dark/dark scrapper and expected him to get 'better' once he had SO's. I wasn't impressed. I remade him as a dark/dark tanker and found him much tougher.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
In short, I think players don't hate Dark; they just get almost as much benefit from Dark as a Scrapper secondary and get the offensive perks of Scrapping to boot. So I think they are making Dark characters...just not necessarily as Tankers.
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Maybe I'm spoiled, though. My main scrapper is /regen and /dark just wasn't cutting it.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
My advice on a tanker, get a secondary that stacks stuns with OG, so EM or SM would be my choices. I made a dark/axe which I deleted in the mid 30s. Remade it as a dark/stone which I much prefer except for the horrendous end use.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Meh. Use that argument for Stalker DA. It doesn't hold up there and doesn't hold up for the Scrapper version. That tankers can replenish that massive amount of HP for the exact same endurance cost as those ATs with less HP is a positive to the tanker version.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Tanks have more hit points and better resists and some other advantages, true; but a /Dark Scrapper has a lot of offensive output (not specific to /Dark, but because he's a Scrapper) and can still heal himself with one click every 10-15 seconds...and still gets the controls and wide variety of resistances that Dark gives.
In short, I think players don't hate Dark; they just get almost as much benefit from Dark as a Scrapper secondary and get the offensive perks of Scrapping to boot. So I think they are making Dark characters...just not necessarily as Tankers. |
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I'm not arguing that they're exactly the same mechanically. The Tanker does have higher resist values and heals more total HP for the same click of DR, as you say.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That tankers can replenish that massive amount of HP for the exact same endurance cost as those ATs with less HP is a positive to the tanker version.
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I'm arguing that it doesn't feel very different, subjectively. Both the Scrapper and the Tanker hit their DR key when their health dips low, and are healed up to full, so they feel very similar in actual play. The fact that it takes the Tanker somewhat longer before he needs to hit that key is a subtle thing that may be lost on many players.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I certainly don't hate my Dark/, I love it. I love the idea of sneaking around and being stealthy on a Tanker, and I love the idea of being beaten on for a while, and then draining my foes to get back to full health so they have to start all over.
I've never played a /Dark Scrapper, so maybe I can't compare how they feel to one another, but honestly, if it's that Dark/ has a Scrapper-like feel, I'm fine with that. I still have Gauntlet pulling everything to me, and the damage isn't so bad that I can't survive long enough to use it. Then again, I'm Dark/DB, and it's possible the stacking of Weaken helps Dark's (low) Def and Res.
And I agree with Herclea about being able to make my character visible, although that was more a cosmetic issue. It didn't stop me from playing him, just makes me happier now.
I think some people like to tank with very little thought. If your shields are passively doing everything for you its easy. With Dark it can come down to more active defense which means rely more on positioning, timing and control, perhaps almost dying with "omg how did I survive that" last second self saves but I just like it because I think its sick. I practically have to almost die every so often to get the most out of mine.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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But that's exactly the part that I was disagreeing with in my post. My dark/dark scrapper felt so squishy (compared to other scrappers) that I stopped playing him and remade him as a tank (which I feel compares well with my other tanks).|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I'm not arguing that they're exactly the same mechanically. The Tanker does have higher resist values and heals more total HP for the same click of DR, as you say.
I'm arguing that it doesn't feel very different, subjectively. |
I did the scrapper first and disliked it so much I had to remake him as a tank.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
I think some people like to tank with very little thought. If your shields are passively doing everything for you its easy. With Dark it can come down to more active defense which means rely more on positioning, timing and control, perhaps almost dying with "omg how did I survive that" last second self saves but I just like it because I think its sick. I practically have to almost die every so often to get the most out of mine.
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Agreed. You have to actually think about how your going to take on the mob, what victim your going to take out first before he nails you with a huge hit, when your going to hit the heal. It just come down to timing and i think to many people just like to be able to get up, get a drink, come back, and have a full green bar while 16 enemys are attcking you. I dont know, may just be me but people are getting lazier and ;azier nowadays.
I love my DM/DA Scrapper. It's not any kind of "Ultimate build" or anything, but its exotic damage, solid resistance, sweet heals, Dark Consumption, and "weird" powers like Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom make it a lot of fun to play, and a very effective soloer against just about anything short of an AV.
As a Tanker, though, I'd admit that I don't think I'd like it. The mezzes aren't strong enough to keep anything other than Minions occupied, and there are only so many enemies that Cloak of Fear and Oppressive Gloom can affect in the first place. The Knockback Protection hole will require at least one expensive KB protection IO, and possibly two. It seems like aggro management would take some of the fun away from the set.
Too many alts to list.
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Don't forget War Mace, which also has great synergy with Dark. (Points to sig.)
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
My advice on a tanker, get a secondary that stacks stuns with OG, so EM or SM would be my choices.
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My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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People want a sure heal , a sure build up etc. Dark is very awesome in my opinion and to pvp and pve. But people are lazy on making a good build and go for the classic builds. Also a dark armor slotted is not endurance heavy, you don't have to worry from end drainers , psionic and dark attacks too.
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Originally Posted by The Questioner
Okay, my question is, why does everyone hate anything that has to do with dark/?
I mean, its not one of the strongest builds, but i think it has decent all around dmg resistance. Is there anythiing thats weak about that people just hate? Its end heavy, yes, thats what stamina is and PP, come on. I think theres more con's than pro's. I think, done right it can be just a survivable as any tank, you just have to slot it right. Can anyone fill me in on the hating of dark? Thanks |
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trust me and can be very powerfull
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grumpums
I love my DM/DA Scrapper. It's not any kind of "Ultimate build" or anything . . .
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*Cracks Knuckles*|
Originally Posted by The Questioner
Okay, my question is, why does everyone hate anything that has to do with dark/?
I mean, its not one of the strongest builds, but i think it has decent all around dmg resistance. Is there anythiing thats weak about that people just hate? Its end heavy, yes, thats what stamina is and PP, come on. I think theres more con's than pro's. I think, done right it can be just a survivable as any tank, you just have to slot it right. Can anyone fill me in on the hating of dark? Thanks |
I got some answers for you on this set for you.
The majority of players are lazy and dont feel like trying something that takes a moment of thought to play and slot properly.Dark Armor isnt that bad of a set at all.Its one of the better ones in fact.
They call it End Heavy because its Toggle Intensive.Not a big issue really.Theres plenty of Sets that are Toggle Intensive as well.Like Ice Armor for example.
Here's the Skinny on why its unpopular.
1) Its Ugly.
2) The Common Player doesnt slot correctly to even out the Endurance issues of there Tanker when they use this set.Nore do they choose powers correctly.They do the retarded thing and skip powers like Death Shroud and Cloak of Darkness and pick up powers like Combat Jumping.
3) The Common Player doesnt want to have to think while playing the game.So a auto set like Willpower or being in Granite Armor is more desired to keep thinking at a minimum.
4) Number Crunchers perfer Mids.Which doesnt offer any realiable information at all for most of anything in the way of CoX.This is also another lazy tactic of the Common Player to choose the best auto sets to keep them selves alive if they feel the need to walk off and make a sandwich and do poor damage for a Tanker.Then run around telling everyone Tankers do Piddly Damage when they clearly do rather good to hefty damage by people who acctually know how to play a Tanker.
Now, thats the skinny on why most people dont use this armor set, or armor sets like it.
I personally took one of the heavier Endurance Eating builds for 2 of my Tankers, and thy have barly any Endurance Issues at all.
My SD/Axe Tank is level 40 right now, and has 3 running toggles.These tuggles have only a single End Redux SO in them.Thats it, no need for any more on this build.It has 1 So of end Redux on its ST attacks, and 2 End Redux SOs for every Cone and AoE Attack its got.Except for Shield Charge.Thats ones 3 Damage and 3 Recharge SOs.It only takes a little over 11 End to use anyhow.It doesnt have the Fighting Pool, or Combat Jumping.Things are dead way to fast to matter.
My Ice/Ice Tanker is simple.1 End Redux SO in all 5 of his Armor Toggles.Max Recharge for Absorb Energy and 3 Defense SOs, and every ST attack has 1 End Redux SO and 2 for every AoE/Cone Attack.Endurance and Defense % is a joke on this Tanker.It nearly Soft Caps by using Absorb Energy and it doesnt have the Fighting Pool or Combat Jumping.
I dont ever take any Pool powers beyond Swift, Health, and Stamina by level 40.Leaving my Epic pool wide open for the last 10 levels of the character.
Both of the Tankers I have arnt missing but 1 power from both of there sets total.
My SD/Axe is only missing Grant Cover.It has the rest of the SD/ powers and every single /Axe power.
My Ice/Ice is the same way.He is only Lacking Taunt from his secondary.You dont really need Taunt on a Friggin Ice Tanker, ever.Other then the lacking of that power, he has every power in his armor set, and Taunts the only thing missing from his secondary.
Dark Armor is a good set.If anyone complains they are having Endurance issues with that Armor set, reguardless of the melee secondary taken with it.Its there own fault for being lazy and not thinking about how to better the character and fix it.
Heres a HUGE fact.
People belive powers like Combat Jumping, Stealth, Manuvers, and the Fighting Pool powers such as Tough and Weave matter more then they really do.By taking these powers, they short change the armor set, and many times abusivly skip powers from the melee secondary the Tanker has taken.
Iv littlerally watched a guy that had a level 30 DA/FM Tank say he is going to erase the Tanker because of the massive endurance issues it has.
The guy was running 4 Armor Toggles, Combat Jumping, and Tough and Weave all at the same time.thats 7 Friggin Toggles.He even Skipped Cloak of Darkness because he belived it kept him from holding agro.So not only was he missinformed, but he was trying to supliment the lacking of that power by taking Combat Jumping and Weave.
Just to get Weave, you have to take 2 other Fighting pool Powers, and adding in Combat Jump to the mix means the guy gave up a single power and tried to replace it with wasting 4 power slots.
The damage to his offensive capabilities was very clear.He had Scorch and Taunt...thats it.. I see alot of players making Tankers this way.Cant understand why they goto such extreems for no reason.
He could have very easly used my method of slotting and taking every one of the powers you can get from both your standard build sets and been just fine.
Another common missinformed bit of information most players have when it comes to this set is the way it works.
Cloak of Darkness doesnt give very much Def %.Not that big of a deal, and ill tell you why.
1) Cloak of Fear grants -toHit on anything it effects.Adding a Additional bonus to all Defense to be added to Cloak of Darkness.
2) People belive by taking Death Shroud and taking Cloak of Fear they will negate the Fear Effect of the Aura.Yes, this is true, but it doesnt effect the -toHit debuff granted by it.Not to mention that if the mob gets hit by even 1 point of damage, it negates it anyhow, so its retarded to belive that teaming wont effect it either.Skipping Shroud of Death is asking for trouble, no matter how you slice it.Them tiny ticks of damage add up, and people aviod that concept and have lower DPS on a number of builds.Mids also points people to builds without a Damage Aura.(Mids can bite me.)
3) People dont like having to stop long enough to pick up a IO to fix the Knock back hole and complain about lack of immob resistance.Iv never once had a Immob issue on a DA/ build, and iv never taken Combat Jumping to attempt to fix it and drain even more Endurance from my build.
4) People dont like Resistance based sets.Again, it means they will have to work harder for a huge pay off with IOs.It costs a little more, but by granting more HP and Regen to a Dark Armor build, you become way more capable and powerful then a player that stuffed CJ and weave onto the build to get a high Def % that ill be taken away the moment a bad guy hits you with a single -def attack.
5) Some people are extreemly Lazy and lack the understanding that not all sets are ment to function the same way.So they fail misserably at playing it, and them run around mouthing about the set and granting it a bad name.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Heres a HUGE fact.
People belive powers like Combat Jumping, Stealth, Manuvers, and the Fighting Pool powers such as Tough and Weave matter more then they really do.By taking these powers, they short change the armor set, and many times abusivly skip powers from the melee secondary the Tanker has taken. |
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| The guy was running 4 Armor Toggles, Combat Jumping, and Tough and Weave all at the same time.thats 7 Friggin Toggles. |
My dark tank has Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave. He runs 10 toggles and laughs at most enemy types. Taking those powers isn't INHERENTLY a problem. It's what you do with the rest of your picks that make or break it.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
I agree with Ironblade with I/O end bonus you wont see the effects of having lots of toggles. I run with 7 on my ice tank and 6 on my Dark/Dark tank.
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Okay, Fire_Minded. I think you have it wrong and right.
Yes, that Dark Armor tanker running Weave ontop of all his other shields, when he has no other IOs in place...not being smart.
For a set like Dark Armor, you take Weave if you have the IO set bonuses in place to stack more defense. CoD + Weave + possibly CJ, just isn't enough Defense, to make Weave's end cost worth it.
Now running all three of those at once, with the proper IOs in place (more Defense AND END concerns taken care of), is a good thing.
However, alot of players don't understand that part. :/ I still see long time players saying "I put 6 SOs in Stamina"
And that +Defense you think doesn't matter, because some mobs have -def, is wrong. It still makes a difference. If I can feel the difference on my Katana/FA Scrapper, I bet you'll feel a difference on a Dark Armor/ Tanker.
But no. Dark Armor isn't going to be popular, it's just not as good on something as other IOed sets can be.
Why?
Dark Armor has PSI RESIST!!! Pffft, so does WP! Shielders can soft cap positional defense and not worry about it much themselves.
Dark Armor has MEZ AURAS!!! That don't effect bosses, not all Primaries have ways to stack effects, and OMG, those other sets do great tanking without Mezzing. And face it, they suck on the ITF (and any other mez resistant enemy) and useless on AVs.
...and that's just the first few parts.
CoD, it's good for adding some defense sure (it's not much tho, and without stacking with set bonuses, it really is nothing), and for the Stealth to have any real effect, the player has to grab a Stealth IO or Super Speed (they can Tanker "stealth" a bit easier tho)...not to mention REMEMBER to turn off the aggro auras OR they may as well not be stealthing at all. But that requires, of course, retoggling.
Dark Regeneration being an ACC based END hungry heal, isn't helping people like the set either.
Not to mention Dark Armor automatically gives the "Dark/Dead/Demon/you get the point" feel to the hero who uses it as well (even with color customization).
Let's not also forget the lack of KB protection. Now personally. I think 2 KB resist IOs are easy to get. Run a few of the main TFs, and you got them! They're cheap merit IOs. Other people think OMG that still means I have to run multiple TFs. :/ Posi + Synapse + Sister Psyche I believe gives you enough for 2 KB resist IOs (but to alot of people that seems like alot of merits)
That said, I love Dark Armor! It's a great set. But I can easily see why it's not going to be very popular, even more so on a Tanker, than any other AT. In the end it's not all that great. It's just not as bad as others make it out to be either, but still...:/
Not alot of people are going to want to have multiple tanks. So they're going to be drawn to the ones who can perform better for cheaper, or just perform better.
Hell, I find Shield a terrible tanker set untill IOs are thrown in with Tough/Weave, but it also has the fun factor of Shield Charge drawing people to it.
Of course, then you see people with these amazing Shield Tankers, so everyone makes one, not realizing what makes them do amazing things is the right powers picks. 
Why is my Shielder dieing? Well let me see, no Tough/Weave (weave could likely be cutout with IOs, I wouldn't lose Tough personally), and no IOs for added defense. That's why!
Of course, times like both of these (unslotted Shielders, Dark Armor Tankers...other equivalents) is when the rest of the team is suppossed to cover the tankers behind, but sadly...some of these things can't be obtained by the team at hand or not enough in some situations.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I'm a bit surprised by this. I'm not doubting your word Ironblade, you are one of the more cogent posters on this forum. I, however, noticed a remarkable improvement when my Dark/Dark scrapper reached SO level enhancements. She seemed one of my most sturdy, hardest hitting scrappers I've played to date. Of course 'sturdy' is a bit of a misnomer...I rely on both of the healing powers to keep going. I'm sure, though, after playing a Spines/Dark to 50, that when I have Tough, Weave, and some IO slotting, I won't have to rely on Dark Regeneration much at all.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
eh. I made a dark/dark scrapper and expected him to get 'better' once he had SO's. I wasn't impressed. I remade him as a dark/dark tanker and found him much tougher.
Maybe I'm spoiled, though. My main scrapper is /regen and /dark just wasn't cutting it. |
That said, I really wish I'd made that character a Dark/Dark Tanker instead. I really have enjoyed the scrapper version, but I'd be nearly indestructable as a Tanker methinks.
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You know, I WANT to disagree with this and say that the extra DEF is worth the END cost. However, I have to admit that I don't bother with Weave except on toons that do have the extra defense from IO's.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Yes, that Dark Armor tanker running Weave ontop of all his other shields, when he has no other IOs in place...not being smart.
For a set like Dark Armor, you take Weave if you have the IO set bonuses in place to stack more defense. CoD + Weave + possibly CJ, just isn't enough Defense, to make Weave's end cost worth it. |
So, while I disagree in THEORY, it seems that I generally go along with your position in PRACTICE.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Okay, my question is, why does everyone hate anything that has to do with dark/?
I mean, its not one of the strongest builds, but i think it has decent all around dmg resistance. Is there anythiing thats weak about that people just hate?
Its end heavy, yes, thats what stamina is and PP, come on. I think theres more con's than pro's. I think, done right it can be just a survivable as any tank, you just have to slot it right. Can anyone fill me in on the hating of dark?
Thanks