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Shields isn't overpowered. With SO's anyways.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
What he's saying is Shields is overpowered.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not with me Leo! Unless by concept you mean you plan to skip things like Mez Protection or you're heal and wonder why you keep dieing and blame it on the defender. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
WHOA! Wait a minute! I'm kinda new to Tankers, but is that what's going to be expected of me when I get to 50? Sport a specific IO build to fulfill the expectations of others?
Never on any of my other characters, am I pigeonholed into a build that might not even be the concept my character is aiming for (and I usually IO all my characters, or have a build planned for them). Maybe I'll just go back to the freer lifestyle of a scrapper or stalker then >_> |
But certain IO builds? No. I haven't even seen such things in game when I play. Though, I have seen Kheldian discrimination on teams. But that's about it.
Oh and Energy Blasters. But not as often.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
No what Im saying is that at the End Game, without KB Resistance, or a Kin Perma Buffing you with ID, that Lord Recluse and quite a few other AVs can knock your Tankers butt around no matter how many KB IOs you have (I had 45KB Protection of my Fire Tank for a STF and Recluse laughed.)
In addition to all those wasted slots on KB IOs is the fact that Resistance based sets get access to paltry bonuses compared to whats Available to Defense based sets. Your bang for the buck on them is much lower compared to a Defensive set that can slot the LotG procs to help improve offense, add HP, Regeneration, or more Defense depending on the sets you use as well.
And Thirdly, Shields isnt overpowered, its Perfectly powered. It has a Mix of mitigation that it can benefit well from any sort of IOing, the same way Invuln and to an Extent, Ice can as well. They all have Defense layered on Resistance layered on +HP in one manner or another.
All resistance based Tanking sets are at a disadvantage when it comes to IOing, because theyre pretty much stuck with a majority of the Resistance based IO sets, which basically offer +HP or +Rec for the most part without a more extreme investment into slots.
Its not that the other sets are overpowered, its that the Resistance based IOing sets, in addition to the fact that theres no way to accrue KB resistance from IOs means that no matter how much KB Prot you have, eventually somethings gonna toss you on your ***.
Of course, as I said before, for 99% of the PvE game it doesnt matter, and if youre IOing your pretty tank to go play the normal PvE content again, well....why? Not like Tanks have any real threat in the majority of PvE Content. If thats the case ignore my argument cause its a point that I dont understand.
And as for an IOd Shielder and DDR, Unlike SR, if I have a cascading failure, I have an extra 1k HP and 20-50% Resistance to everything right behind my ginormous defense to keep me on my feet. Im not afraid to take a hit.
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Its not expected unless you join it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
WHOA! Wait a minute! I'm kinda new to Tankers, but is that what's going to be expected of me when I get to 50? Sport a specific IO build to fulfill the expectations of others?
Never on any of my other characters, am I pigeonholed into a build that might not even be the concept my character is aiming for (and I usually IO all my characters, or have a build planned for them). Maybe I'll just go back to the freer lifestyle of a scrapper or stalker then >_> |
If someones doing an STF and you volunteer to do it on your IOd Darkie, your damn darkie better be able to handle Recluse, because a Failed STF is a waste of everyones time.
Otherwise IO however you see fit. Im not telling you how to IO, just commenting that Dark is relatively weaker in power when compared to most other sets for IOs, on top of the more sophisticated playstyle.
And before ANYONE says that I just dont know what Im doing with the IOs, or that I havent played dark, or whatnot, 2 Level 50 Darkies. Both were IOd before I ripped them apart to play something with better Performance.
Why IO to make myself sustainable when another set can do it more easily and deal more damage?
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With this type of thinking, why would you make any melee character other than Shields?|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
Why IO to make myself sustainable when another set can do it more easily and deal more damage?
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Originally Posted by Jeminiks
No what Im saying is that at the End Game, without KB Resistance, or a Kin Perma Buffing you with ID, that Lord Recluse and quite a few other AVs can knock your Tankers butt around no matter how many KB IOs you have (I had 45KB Protection of my Fire Tank for a STF and Recluse laughed.)
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Recluse is actually a little different for whatever reason. Only KB resistance (the built in ridiculous amount that a lot of melee sets get) seems to suffice, rather than KB protection alone.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Alright, now that's just false. My Shield/Fire Tank doesn't even have 45 KB protection, it can manage to get to -34KB for a little while, but generally sits at -24KB. You do know that a WP Tank only gets 10KB Protection from IW and a Shields gets -10KB from AD, -20KB from keeping it stacked? Now, I'm not exactly sure how much KB Lord Recluse does, but if my Dark Armor can stand up to Hami along with getting hit by all 6 yellow mitos without getting KB'ed, I think he'd be able to stand up to do the same against LR. |
Well, I withdraw my previous statement then. I forgot that he has a hax power like that and was disregarding the KB res.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I personally dislike Dark Armor on tanks because the mez powers are rather useless against AVs (and the -ToHit in CoF is largely resisted), thus they lose a chunk of their mitigation right there.
Or so I remember it being. Keep in mind that I've been away from the game for like half a year now.
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I question your playstyle and game experience.
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Originally Posted by Jeminiks
The Set doesnt IO well, its hole can still be breached even with IOs (KB) and there are just more solid sets that require less effort on the part of the user.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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Until you run the praetorian arc and get eaten alive on any defense toon.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
For all the money you spent on IOing a Dark, you can take a Shielder and get better performance and damage. End of story.
Or an Invuln or an Ice. And while 99% of the PvE game yes, you can be sufficient with a Single KB IO, most people dont IO their tank to do that short of farming. Theyre doing High Endgame content like the STF or Speed ITFs or LGTFs. Not that the Darky doesnt perform well in the later two, but overall most people likely see that it makes more sense to IO something else and play something else. |
And I seriously disagree that speed ITF's are high endgame content.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I thought this was a team game. Any player sayin that a tf/sf was failed because the tank couldnt handle it, again I question your judgement.|
Originally Posted by Jeminiks
If someones doing an STF and you volunteer to do it on your IOd Darkie, your damn darkie better be able to handle Recluse, because a Failed STF is a waste of everyones time.
And before ANYONE says that I just dont know what Im doing with the IOs, or that I havent played dark, or whatnot, 2 Level 50 Darkies. Both were IOd before I ripped them apart to play something with better Performance. Why IO to make myself sustainable when another set can do it more easily and deal more damage? |
Id like to see your IO'd "darkie" builds. THAT might explain alot.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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It wasn't anything dumb like no mez protection...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not with me Leo! Unless by concept you mean you plan to skip things like Mez Protection or you're heal and wonder why you keep dieing and blame it on the defender.
But certain IO builds? No. I haven't even seen such things in game when I play. Though, I have seen Kheldian discrimination on teams. But that's about it. Oh and Energy Blasters. But not as often. |
I was thinking about a new DA/Mace. He'd have taunt and stuff but he'd opt for improving stuns. And rather than defense bonuses from IOs, I was going to aim for +HP, +END and recovery and other stuff...but his concept is he likes to be hit...like a masochist or something.
Yeah, I've just got his concept and possible costume but haven't done anything beyond that.
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For most things you'll be fine.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It wasn't anything dumb like no mez protection...
I was thinking about a new DA/Mace. He'd have taunt and stuff but he'd opt for improving stuns. And rather than defense bonuses from IOs, I was going to aim for +HP, +END and recovery and other stuff...but his concept is he likes to be hit...like a masochist or something. Yeah, I've just got his concept and possible costume but haven't done anything beyond that. |
Where I think you'll find the biggest problems, if you don't have the right Buffers/Debuffers watching your back...
ITFs. Mez Shields are wasted against the enemy. They'll land lots of hard hitting attacks. Would DA/ Tanker be the ideal choice of lead tanker imo on an ITF? No. But, I've run it with all tankers, and truthfully, I'd rather run it with a DA/ than a Granite who can't play without Speed Boost. Those are the worst Tankers.
STF, LR buffed up by those towers is HARD for most tanks without backup. I had to replan my WP/EM tanker's build twice to get the survivability I wanted. And sacrificing concept powers to do it.
I went from no Tough/Weave to grabbing it, because I wanted my tanker to survive as much as possible with as little help as possible.
On a STF, fact is most Tankers are going to need some sort of help to hold LR off the team, while the team is taking down the towers.
I was spam healing a softcapped SHield/ tanker with my Dark/Sonic Defender, and couldn't keep him standing, and that was with Darkest Night on LR (and the tank was popping skittles). Now either the tanker was lying about being Softcapped, or LR is that hard on Tanks.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Have you done a typical PuG STF? The one where basic end-tactics is that the Tank Handles Recluse with an Emp and the rest of the team goes after the Towers?|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
I thought this was a team game. Any player sayin that a tf/sf was failed because the tank couldnt handle it, again I question your judgement.
Id like to see your IO'd "darkie" builds. THAT might explain alot. |
Why are you questioning my game experience as if its blatantly obvious a Darkie can handle the STF SO'd out and without a Hitch? They cant. Theres a Reason Invuln or Stone is the preferred Tank with an STF.
Im sorry I dont rely on my team, I dont have Super teams setup, the other team members are typically unknown quantities and I will be more specific about powersets and playstyle with the STF because I have failed a few of them when I was more lax on what other people were doing.
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Really? Now its you whom I question whether they know how to play. My SR and Shielder have both done just fine on all of the End game Arcs, Psi, Radiation or Auto-Hit Dark auras be damned.
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Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Until you run the praetorian arc and get eaten alive on any defense toon.
And I seriously disagree that speed ITF's are high endgame content. |
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If youre a Min-Maxer, there'd be no other real reason. If you enjoy playing the game for fun and the thrill of thematic sets? Well theres every reason.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
With this type of thinking, why would you make any melee character other than Shields?
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From what Ive seen (this is by no means an absolute truth) the majority of players want the cool shiney and to level quickly on relatively easy sets. Thats why Regen, WP and Shields are so popular. Theyre all strong, and the latter gets a telenuke. Why wouldnt Dark be the red headed step child with those available? It doesnt have nearly as much going for it.
You seem to be basing most of your arguments around the fact that Dark can't handle the STF w/o serious support. Um... so? Is that all you do w/your 50s? And PuG STFs? Why would anyone put themselves through that hell other than to prove you can? I mean, I suppose it's nice for your ego and all, but I'd rather run it w/my SG and/or competent friends of which I have a decent supply on my home server.
Same for ITFs--I just breezed through one w/nothing more than scrappers and a few support, though it wasn't some crappy PuG, which is why, again, I don't run them. If I *had* to tank a bad team though, I'd just bring over my Stony or Invul. On a barely competent team (i.e. doesn't actively suck), DA does *more* than well enough.
Bottom line, other than MoSTF runs, end game content in CoH just isn't that tough (Disclaimer: I haven't been on a Hami run in forever so don't know what those are like any more). Not to mention, this game isn't just about end game content. I got my DA's def up through IOs starting in his 30s which made him well nigh unkillable for that level range. DA does more than fine for 98% of this game, esp when well IO'ed out, which was, I believe your first point of contention--that DA doesn't IO well.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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I'll tell you why people put them through it. They love to do TFs, and their SG isn't known for liking to run TFs. |
Originally Posted by dave_p
You seem to be basing most of your arguments around the fact that Dark can't handle the STF w/o serious support. Um... so? Is that all you do w/your 50s? And PuG STFs? Why would anyone put themselves through that hell other than to prove you can? I mean, I suppose it's nice for your ego and all, but I'd rather run it w/my SG and/or competent friends of which I have a decent supply on my home server.
Same for ITFs--I just breezed through one w/nothing more than scrappers and a few support, though it wasn't some crappy PuG, which is why, again, I don't run them. If I *had* to tank a bad team though, I'd just bring over my Stony or Invul. On a barely competent team (i.e. doesn't actively suck), DA does *more* than well enough. Bottom line, other than MoSTF runs, end game content in CoH just isn't that tough (Disclaimer: I haven't been on a Hami run in forever so don't know what those are like any more). Not to mention, this game isn't just about end game content. I got my DA's def up through IOs starting in his 30s which made him well nigh unkillable for that level range. DA does more than fine for 98% of this game, esp when well IO'ed out, which was, I believe your first point of contention--that DA doesn't IO well. |
Besides it's fun.
ITF really isn't that bad with PuG. STF on the other hand is tougher (LRSF will likely be just as tough when Tankers go redside)...but they're hardly unbeatable. However with some teams, patience is a virtue, sadly I'd say most players lack it, as once they die to 3 times, they begin to whine and quit due to debt. :/
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The BrandX Collection
Yeah, I guess I'd do an ITF w/a PuG--it's really not that big a deal. STFs... man, never again (yeah, there were a few bad ones, *shudders*).
And I totally get ppl who wanna do stuff like run PuG STFs--I know different ppl play different ways to have fun. I just don't think it's a valid reason to say X is bad because it can't do Y that well, and Y is a tiny, tiny subset of the game.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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The game isnt about end-game content, youre correct. However IOing typically (not always) is done for Endgame content though.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
You seem to be basing most of your arguments around the fact that Dark can't handle the STF w/o serious support. Um... so? Is that all you do w/your 50s? And PuG STFs? Why would anyone put themselves through that hell other than to prove you can? I mean, I suppose it's nice for your ego and all, but I'd rather run it w/my SG and/or competent friends of which I have a decent supply on my home server.
Same for ITFs--I just breezed through one w/nothing more than scrappers and a few support, though it wasn't some crappy PuG, which is why, again, I don't run them. If I *had* to tank a bad team though, I'd just bring over my Stony or Invul. On a barely competent team (i.e. doesn't actively suck), DA does *more* than well enough. Bottom line, other than MoSTF runs, end game content in CoH just isn't that tough (Disclaimer: I haven't been on a Hami run in forever so don't know what those are like any more). Not to mention, this game isn't just about end game content. I got my DA's def up through IOs starting in his 30s which made him well nigh unkillable for that level range. DA does more than fine for 98% of this game, esp when well IO'ed out, which was, I believe your first point of contention--that DA doesn't IO well. |
And I PuG STFs because I dont run with any SGs and Ive always PuGd in this game. I have my friends but we all go our seperate ways sometimes and I dont mind playing with people that arent in my special club
Never on any of my other characters, am I pigeonholed into a build that might not even be the concept my character is aiming for (and I usually IO all my characters, or have a build planned for them). Maybe I'll just go back to the freer lifestyle of a scrapper or stalker then >_>