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Originally Posted by srmalloy
The purpose of using Stealth was to illustrate the difference in how the powers draw aggro vs. their outgoing damage, not on what happens if you jump into a spawn and immediately draw aggro from your presence, then stand there taking fire while you activate your nuke. The best approximation in game of analyzing the power's effects in isolation, since using a spawn of mobs too low-level to aggro on you when you enter the spawn doesn't give you good data for survival rate against incoming aggro. But sure, let's throw in the use of Fire Manipulation powers, and then continue to discuss the way Inferno and Hail of Bullets draw aggro versus their delivery of damage without other powers or the mobs' perception aggroing them on you.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
Using Stealth to position yourself for Inferno/Nova and Hail of Bullets allows you to see the effects of aggro generated by that power alone, rather than from mobs aggroing on you from proximity or from other powers you're running, demonstrating that Hail of Bullets generates aggro on the targets in the beaten zone from the moment the animation starts, whereas Nova and Inferno don't generate aggro until the damage hits the targets.
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I am not arguing that HoB fails to aggro enemies. Of course, those enemies get aggroed just from running into range to use HoB, Nova, Inferno, Dreadful Wail, etc. So all the PBAoE nukes aggro just from being in range to use them. Your claim that Nova and Inferno have an advantage here is mistaken.
HoB has the advantage of dealing damage almost as soon as you click the button, whereas the other nukes do not deal that damage until the end of their animation time (mostly, Sonic's nuke's damage happens during the animation, pretty quickly after you push the button actually, one of the reasons it is my favorite standard nuke).
HoB has the advantage of being usable 3 times for every one use of a standard nuke.
HoB has a significant endurance consumption advantage over standard nukes.
Standard nukes have the advantage of significantly more damage.
Standard nukes have animations times ranging from ~45% to ~90% of the time of HoB, a decent advantage for the standard nukes, in most cases (poor Thunderous Blast,
).Aggro generation solo is irrelevant, all the aggro is coming to you (unless you are counting on Gun Drone or Dark Servant to out aggro you or are Traps) and the standard nukes in a solo environment seem like they would be an odd thing to use, even with your difficulty cranked up (when I solo a character with a standard nuke I use it in case of emergency or just for fun). HoB will probably be used a lot more often solo, since it recharges faster and does not crash your end.
Aggro generation on a team is more relevant, but on a team, HoB is much more likely to kill even +2 enemies, because those other people on your team are doing damage too and/or give you enough time to open with BR or EC which is likely not to steal aggro from someone else while taking enemy health low enough for HoB to usually kill the enemies. If you are on a team and eating the alphas of spawns, you are either being buffed to withstand that or deserve your fate.
HoB will probably not kill all the enemies in a mid to large size spawn, and its animation is long enough that there is a good chance you will not only eat the alpha, but you may not kill all that many before they get a second shot off. HoB will cause some mitigation with its KD. Using lethal rounds will get you significantly more mitigation. Usually enough time to get a BR off, which does make it likely +1s perish, although you never know (the uncertainty is a big drawback, IMO).
Full Auto (with Build Up) is much more likely to only force you to take an Alpha, since it will kill +1s, and often cause enough damage to make +2s scatter (and you can often get that M30 or buckshot off as they start to scatter, getting most of them in a second AoE which is likely to cause even +2s to perish).
Rain of Arrows is the best nuke, and is probably intended to be. I do not expect HoB to be as good as RoA.
HoB could use a buff, IMO. I would like to see it deal more "upfront" damage with a higher average as well as a higher low end. But compared to the standard nukes and even RoA, HoB has more "upfront" damage, but by the end of the animations it has much less damage overall (usually).
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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srmalloy also kind of missed what I was saying about HoB at most getting minor tweaks, as it's going to be on par with Rain of Arrows and Full Auto. Obviously they three powers animate and carry out slightly differently.
My point was that they are all crashless nukes, and therefore RoA and Full Auto represent the closest comparison points for HoB. That means at best a HoB buff will look at lowered recharge for the set, 1-2 hit rolls instead of many, etc.
As I have pointed out many times in this thread, you are not going to be getting changes beyond how other nuke powers work- the devs aren't going to change how they start putting powers together for sets. Things are hard enough to balance already, I'm sure.
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I actually did a rather complex write-up concerning HoB and existing precedents as they applied to HoB. The end result was that the only changes that are really needed are a reduction in recharge to 60 seconds and an increase in the chance for each instance of damage to 60% (from 50%). Doing that would allow the average damage to keep pace with the average damage of Full Auto adjusted for the danger of it being a melee PbAoE while maintaining a similar ratio of average to maximum damage to the closest parallel for variable damage that I could find (Blizzard).
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
My point was that they are all crashless nukes, and therefore RoA and Full Auto represent the closest comparison points for HoB. That means at best a HoB buff will look at lowered recharge for the set, 1-2 hit rolls instead of many, etc.
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Yeah, I remember that (I'm still not sure why its recharge isn't on par with them... it's not better than RoA and Full Auto, from what I can see). I think that's some of the better thinking about it, as well. I do rather wonder if they should up the KD chances as well, just to help more during the animation. Yes, RoA and Full Auto don't get any mitigation, but they also can be fired from range, which I think is a fair tradeoff.
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Although I do think that HoB will get the normal adjustments, I think making it more of a gambit might work well too. After all, many nukes give the crash, making it a do-or-die sort of maneuver. HoB seems to be more a do-AND-die maneuver.
I suppose I'd model it more on the Self-Destruct power introduced with the tech pack.
You fire off the power, and for the duration you can't be touched. (Thematic AND functional.) At the end of the power, your endurance (and maybe even health) crash(es) to 5% of your maximum. Give it a 5 minute recharge, good damage, and voila... a nuke worthy of the title.
Perhaps the cottage rule might rule that out before it gets anywhere.
Anyway, just my two cents... but it's a beautifully-animated power, and I'd hate to see it perform less awesomely than it deserves. 
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Originally Posted by Talionis
Dual Pistols is probably balanced pretty well from what I can see so far.
But if it were granted anything like that I would say it should be - To Hit. This is probably thematically more accurate as it would be like cover fire making it more difficult for people to get a good accurate shot at you. But to be honest I'd get out of the way and take cover from any of the other blast attacks probably more than I would the Dual Pistols. Think about it a lot of things are bullet proof, they won't be scared and ducking from a couple little guns pointing at them. Blast sets just don't seem to have access to that kind of thing. If they did they should be in the form of a Debuff. |
I agree with this. Maybe add a little -tohit to the lethal rounds and leave the other elemental rounds as they are? It would be a good reason to use the regular ammo, I find I never do. (-tohit > KB)
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
ask again in 3 years when they'll look at the set.
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While I throughly agree with adding a +Def bonus to Hail of Bullets is fitting both thematically and balance wise, I don't expect anything to change for 2-3 years, because that's about how long history shows they take to relook at something.
For now, simply pop a purple or two for 'luck' before clicking Hail of Bullets and you get the same effect.
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So how many other people, besides me, have fought Malta's Gunslingers ?
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I too would've been in the camp of making Dual Pistols a Scrapper primary. I never saw a big difference between it and Spines.
Pistols really are only good at short range, so it could've made sense, and it would've be doable by concept. But I do understand why they went with the normal route of making it a blast set. |
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Make all IO's available in Paragon Market! NCSoft, the chinese are making BIG money selling influence and other stuff in the game. Best way to stop them = make the paragon market a place to buy all IO's and perhaps other things as well.
I really dont know I think I would rather have a damage buff & end redux I can pretty much figure out my own def. my Dp cold corr is kinda end heavy with me tryin to hover every where lol. My own fault for tryin to go more for concept than performance. But floating hail of bullets does look awsome (until i face plant )
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LOL me an while im busy flipping around like an idiot ! the gunslinger just aims an 1.. 2.. 3.. im dead. im reminded of that scene in Raiders of the lost arc where the guy with the sword is showin off an Indy just pops him. its like bringing a paintball gun to Iraq.
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Originally Posted by Commando
So how many other people, besides me, have fought Malta's Gunslingers ?
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Even though the last post is old, might as well say this: HoB went from 50% to 60% chance per damage tick and it provides a small defense bonus for its animation. I think we have Umbral to thank for the damage suggestion though! Also, if you want to use RoA to compare it to other crashless nukes, take into account that RoA has a 1.00 accuracy, instead of the 1.60 accuracy it SAYS it has. A sort of balance, in a way. Not to mention it does not take the to-hit buff from Targeting Drone, unless they changed it. RoA has an advantage that each tick is a different AoE attack, since it is a pseudo-pet, allowing it to hit more enemies if a group is too large *taking on a group and an ambush pops up, for example, but what are the chances?* and can be used behind cover, avoiding sight and that group of enemies you hit wont attack. Full Auto has all its ticks hit the targets, and the other powers can be used to easily lower the damage done to you. The PBAoE nukes are high powered, and is the reason its a do-or-die types of powers, since most of the time, the enemies are dead after the dmg is done. HoB is a nice change, a crashless PBAoE Nuke, with side effects being able to be changed to match most given situations, and, for those without stealth, the damage starts immediately, like Full Auto.
Speaking as a 26 DP/Eng that's the current blaster I'm leveling if i'm going to ask for anything in dual pistols it's keeping knockback regardless of ammo type, that's the main reason i'm not fond of using swap ammo. That and fire seems the only good choice given how blasters don't have very good debuff values.
But all the numbers in this thread aside (see sig) Has anyone considered the defiance mechanic here? Instead of trying to ram that square peg into the round hole by treating is a starter nuke and dying constantly (again don't blame the tools) why not consider it as part of the set as a whole? Hit the mob pack first with a few attacks under build up, like a bone smasher and energy punch if you're /eng to drop a minion or seriously wound an LT, or start with supressive fire to mitigate some incoming alpha (or stun annoying damn raider engineers and sappers) and once you've got a bit of a boost THEN fire off HoB on what's left?
Know for a fact that a simple defiance boosted pistols plus dual wield can drop even con minions and put a hurting on +1 to the point where power thrust finishes the job. (This with plain jane level 25 IO's) And given how I play blasters like brutes I like to keep the bonus high as possible by running from pack to pack, in tightly packed maps i could see a defiance enhanced hob doing nasty things to a second group.
Gotta think outside the box a little here, not clamor for some magic I win button, which four seconds of untouchable would be. Asking for defense in a blast set is just about as bad, it aint gonna happen, and our best defense is a dead mob anyway.
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This. The setup that works great for me on my DP/MM:|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
. But all the numbers in this thread aside (see sig) Has anyone considered the defiance mechanic here? Instead of trying to ram that square peg into the round hole by treating is a starter nuke and dying constantly (again don't blame the tools) why not consider it as part of the set as a whole? Hit the mob pack first with a few attacks under build up, like a bone smasher and energy punch if you're /eng to drop a minion or seriously wound an LT, or start with supressive fire to mitigate some incoming alpha (or stun annoying damn raider engineers and sappers) and once you've got a bit of a boost THEN fire off HoB on what's left?
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Line on group at a distance trying to get one or two minions or Lts between me and the Boss, Select Normal ammo, Target Boss, fire surveillance, BU, Piercing Rounds, Select Fire ammo whilst its animating, Jump into HoB range, Executioner's shot the boss, THEN hit HoB.
That little lot tends to take out about 50% of the boss's health and mostly wipes out the rest of the group for up to +2 enemies (I do pack about +45% dam from IOs and Assault though...)
Mop up can be done with Psi shockwave and/or the other AoEs if required but mostly its just a case of jumping around plinking the boss until he falls.
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i'd love new blaster secodary that'd fit with dual pistols, devices is almost there but fits better with AR or Archery
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Originally Posted by Nick_1080
This. The setup that works great for me on my DP/MM:
Line on group at a distance trying to get one or two minions or Lts between me and the Boss, Select Normal ammo, Target Boss, fire surveillance, BU, Piercing Rounds, Select Fire ammo whilst its animating, Jump into HoB range, Executioner's shot the boss, THEN hit HoB. That little lot tends to take out about 50% of the boss's health and mostly wipes out the rest of the group for up to +2 enemies (I do pack about +45% dam from IOs and Assault though...) Mop up can be done with Psi shockwave and/or the other AoEs if required but mostly its just a case of jumping around plinking the boss until he falls. |
Am I the only one that thinks that's far too much work to get something done?
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Its funny i was going to wright the same thing yesterday about Hail of bullets getting a def buff to an unstoppable state while the power is in use..
In Champions Online alot of the dual pistol moves are a direct copy from equilibrium and other pistol oriented movies.. There is one move in particular cant remember the name though that is a direct copy of the final fight scene of equilibrium where you can do the whole gun cata.
The longer you hold down the power the whole animation plays + you get def + resistance to everything.. only difference is the dmg was in aoe form and very weak.. so besides from using it as part time shield break there was no use for it as an attack..
I for one am not taking HoB however if they buffed it to be like in champions online and gave us 45% def i would def scoop it up..
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If you are not taking it because you think HoB does not perform well, you are making a grave error.
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Originally Posted by IronAlex
I for one am not taking HoB however if they buffed it to be like in champions online and gave us 45% def i would def scoop it up..
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I'm sure you know how silly a suggestion this is, and therefore intended for people to point and laugh at it. Performance art, right?
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Originally Posted by IronAlex
I for one am not taking HoB however if they buffed it to be like in champions online and gave us 45% def i would def scoop it up..
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Or you could just invention sets and have the same result |
Originally Posted by IronAlex
Its funny i was going to wright the same thing yesterday about Hail of bullets getting a def buff to an unstoppable state while the power is in use..
In Champions Online alot of the dual pistol moves are a direct copy from equilibrium and other pistol oriented movies.. There is one move in particular cant remember the name though that is a direct copy of the final fight scene of equilibrium where you can do the whole gun cata. The longer you hold down the power the whole animation plays + you get def + resistance to everything.. only difference is the dmg was in aoe form and very weak.. so besides from using it as part time shield break there was no use for it as an attack.. I for one am not taking HoB however if they buffed it to be like in champions online and gave us 45% def i would def scoop it up.. |
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