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Are you absolutely certain that's the case? I have several characters that run at /x4 or /x6, and one that does /x8. I do notice the higher level spawns but, at least in my experience, they always appear smaller.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Right now, they're all large spawns (because that's what I picked), so I end up fighting spawns that are both large AND high level. That just sucks, and it's the source of the bulk of my grievances with difficulty.
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Honestly, I like your suggestion for two main reasons. +4s are hard to beat for anyone, but the occasional +5 group that spawns is often over the top. Imagine the sidekicked character in the group that's now fighting +6s. Now, the difficulty doesn't have to be turned up that high if they can't handle it, but assuming they could handle the +4s, they should be able to always fight +4s.
The second reason is for when I do repeatable missions at -1/x8 for purple drops. I have absolutely no problems fighting the even cons that show up. My problem is that it becomes a smaller spawn, and I want the drops.
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Well, I can't say if it's ALWAYS that way, but what prompted me to post this was facing a spawn LARGER than the -1 I had been fighting that had ended up even con nonetheless, which killed me once and came close to killing me twice. The game has the tendency to vary spawn sizes just on its own, but small spawns don't always coincide with higher levels, at least not in my experience.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Are you absolutely certain that's the case? I have several characters that run at /x4 or /x6, and one that does /x8. I do notice the higher level spawns but, at least in my experience, they always appear smaller.
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I generally like to play at -1x3 because I prefer things easy, and most of my spawns consist of a couple of lieutenants and about half a dozen minions, boss spawns notwithstanding. I will consistently see that both at -1 and even con, and the even con ones have a tendency to give even my Scrappers a run for their money if I happen to be fighting something nasty. The spawn that made me post this actually had THREE even con lieutenants plus four minions, set at -1x3, so it was larger than I normally see AND higher level than it should have been.
That kind of sporadic difficulty kills me a lot, but since I know someone's bound to like it, I'm suggesting this only as an option.
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| Honestly, I like your suggestion for two main reasons. +4s are hard to beat for anyone, but the occasional +5 group that spawns is often over the top. Imagine the sidekicked character in the group that's now fighting +6s. Now, the difficulty doesn't have to be turned up that high if they can't handle it, but assuming they could handle the +4s, they should be able to always fight +4s. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Option: Fixed spawn level, Y/N
When N, it reverts to the variable we have at present.
/Signed. Fine tuneable options is a good thing.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Is it weird that this bothers me more the other way? I don't mind seeing the occasional +1 spawn in a mission, but every once in a while I see -1s and -2s running around an even spawn mission and I have to go "what the hell?" I generally play on +0/x8, because while I can handle higher, I am lazy, and +0/x8 is what my MM can steamroll without really losing minions. The occasional +1 spawn is tough, but nothing I can't handle. The -1s and -2s that sometimes show just... don't seem worth my time.
So yeah, fixed spawn level option. I don't see the harm in it, I'd vote for it.
On a side note: The "Vindication" arc could really use this. When set as a level 50 mission, Mynx spawns as a level 52 Hero, and this is one of the hardest fights in the game, in my experience, because it's taken on by a team who's set to fight level 50 AVs. And Mynx is prone to critting and insta-killing people. And she's surrounded by Longbow, the most competent enemy group at high levels*. Heaven help you if you're playing on higher than +0 for this arc. The only enemy I've suffered TPKs against more often is Romulus Nictus, and he's actually four AVs.
*This is not the thread to argue this. If you want to claim Malta or Nemesis or whatever, you're free to think that. Longbow gives me the most trouble, so I'm saying they're the most competent.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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this issue ive only noticed on heroside, ive never seen this happen on redside|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Is it weird that this bothers me more the other way? I don't mind seeing the occasional +1 spawn in a mission, but every once in a while I see -1s and -2s running around an even spawn mission and I have to go "what the hell?" I generally play on +0/x8, because while I can handle higher, I am lazy, and +0/x8 is what my MM can steamroll without really losing minions. The occasional +1 spawn is tough, but nothing I can't handle. The -1s and -2s that sometimes show just... don't seem worth my time.
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for the OP, most indoor mish maps, the groups will spawn at difficulty set and +1 that difficulty (i dont know exact ratios for this, but on average its about 25-50% of the enemeis in indoor map spawn at +1 the set diff)
the only time you couldnt get +5 spawns is if your running lvl 50 stuff as nothing in the game will spawn above lvl 54
This entire thread strikes me as overly-controlling to a point of neurosis. It is a cognitive dissonance, to me, how someone can be so awe-struck at the reality that they will be fighting enemies of their own level or-- dev forbid-- +1 con.
I don't support this suggestion simply because it seems so overly unnecessary. If your idea of 'hard' is to fight even-level minions, then there may be some problems beyond the game.
/signed
countless times have i found it easy to fight -1's and then faceplanted multiple time when i got to an even con mob. i put -1 so i can wittle down mobs that are too hard so if i do faceplant then i will be able to go back to a smaller mob the next time. when you face even cons it's sometimes hard to get more than one down before you plant!!
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Thank you for insulting me, but you are missing the point. My idea is to tailor my builds to the difficult I expect to face. No more, no less. I don't enjoy building for irrespectively maximal efficiency, simply because over-performance takes the fun out of the game and I have to look for harder difficulties just to provide a fun playing environment. Well, instead of looking to up my difficulty, I end up lowering my capability through build choices because that's the difficulty I've chosen to aspire to. I fail to see how this is your problem, or indeed any of your business.|
Originally Posted by Sigium
This entire thread strikes me as overly-controlling to a point of neurosis. It is a cognitive dissonance, to me, how someone can be so awe-struck at the reality that they will be fighting enemies of their own level or-- dev forbid-- +1 con.
I don't support this suggestion simply because it seems so overly unnecessary. If your idea of 'hard' is to fight even-level minions, then there may be some problems beyond the game. |
Furthermore, my idea of "hard" very much IS to fight even-level minions if there are quite enough of them. My builds are not in any way optimal, but that's OK, because the game allows me to lower my difficulty. I refuse to be ashamed of this, specifically when it's a supported function of the system.
Finally, this isn't a question of hard or easy. It's a question of tailoring my own experience to what I ideally want to see. And when that experience deviates uncontrollably, this is made more difficult because I either have to build to be stronger than what I expect to see (which I don't want) or I end up ganked by enemies stronger than what I built for (which I also don't want). This is my idea of fun, this is my ideal difficulty. I don't question your choice in difficulty and I don't try to impose my idea of challenge and performance on you. Why do you feel obligated to impose yours on me?
Vindictively concluding that this isn't necessary because I'm a big baby is highly unproductive. So what if I am? It's my choice, after all. Look at the very idea behind the expanded difficulty settings. They were just as "unnecessary," because everyone could just go up to Invincible/Ruthless and stay there anyway, so +0x8 was pointless. Yet many people still preferred fighting many weak enemies over few strong ones. The point of the difficulty settings wasn't to give one more stop on a linear difficulty curve, it was to give players more spacial control of their difficulty, be it more enemies, stronger enemies or both, bosses, no bosses, no bosses but with AVs. The key word here is "control," and giving us more control over our experience is goal here.
This game is the best about letting players define their own playing experience. If I feel it's too hard, I make it easier. If I feel it's too easy, I make it harder. If I don't like fighting certain enemies, I don't. If I don't feel like power-gaming, I stick to basic supplies. When I cry foul and say "Wah! It's too hard! They're killing me!" the developers don't spring into action to tell me to shut up or go change the game to suit my whim. They simply give me the keys to keyboard and say "Don't like it? Fine. Change it to something you like. We don't mind." And instead of me hoping and praying for a patch that makes things the way I want them, I can go and change things into how I want them RIGHT NOW, and only for myself without taking other people's status quo away from them.
The mantra of City of Heroes, as repeated by its players, has always been: "More options is always good." And I agree with this. I'm merely asking for one more option.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think the main issue, here, is that some missions are hard-coded to Ramp up, Ramp Down, or be +1. And while the nice difficulty option can change the overall difficulty of the mish by +1, -1, or however many levels the ramp-up or down is still going to be there.
Ramp-up, for those of you who are unaware, is the coding method by which enemies at the front of the mission are weaker than the enemies at the rear. Giving a sense of progressively harder foes.
I -think- (ergo I'm probably wrong) that this information is basically hardcoded into every mission, as it is in the Architect. Which would require the Devs to go mission by mission to change every ramp-up, ramp-down, etc, to the new format. This would be incredibly tedious and time consuming.
As an alternative, I'd like to suggest allowing players to go to Level -2. So that on missions with Ramp-Up or Higher Difficulty spawns the player can keep them where they want them.
-Rachel-
This usually doesn't bother me, but lately I've had some really bad luck and I've been encountering AVs two to even three, THREE, levels above what I specified.
In a full team of eight, I feel that one or two levels don't make too much of a difference, but an AV can easily take twice as long all of a sudden until you realise their level is WAY too high.
I don't actually mind the +1 because, as was mentioned, +1 spawns also tend to be smaller so in theory it balances out, but when it comes to AVs, +1 is a HUGE difference because their entourage of minions won't make a difference in the long run, only their own power.
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While that's true as an option for the Architect, I'm unaware of any actual developer-made missions that use this, outside of specific unique tasks like the 5th Column TF, and that's just as likely coded with specifics, rather than "just ramp down."|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I think the main issue, here, is that some missions are hard-coded to Ramp up, Ramp Down, or be +1. And while the nice difficulty option can change the overall difficulty of the mish by +1, -1, or however many levels the ramp-up or down is still going to be there.
Ramp-up, for those of you who are unaware, is the coding method by which enemies at the front of the mission are weaker than the enemies at the rear. Giving a sense of progressively harder foes. |
That used to be a common part of the game back in the day, with "front loaded" missions being commonplace, but they removed that YEARS ago, and I've not seen it since. Recently I've seen a few head-scratching missions that spawn enemies 2 below their level (below the actual mission level, which makes then -3 to me O.o), but I'm not sure if that's intended. I can't imagine why someone would do this intentionally.
Either way, if a mission is SPECIFICALLY designed to scale its levels, then I have no problem with that. Well, I do, but I can understand the design and don't want to dispute it. But at least for missions which AREN'T designed this way, I'd really love an option to lock enemy levels. They've done it once before. Ye olde old missions used to ramp enemy levels up a BIG way if your team was large enough, and they no longer do that. They just up spawn size.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Sigium
This entire thread strikes me as overly-controlling to a point of neurosis. It is a cognitive dissonance, to me, how someone can be so awe-struck at the reality that they will be fighting enemies of their own level or-- dev forbid-- +1 con.
I don't support this suggestion simply because it seems so overly unnecessary. If your idea of 'hard' is to fight even-level minions, then there may be some problems beyond the game. |
not this again, this isn't about "hard" it's about fun alright. Let me say that again fun is what this is about.
I'm off the same mindset in both cases I don't enjoy my enemys being higher or lower then specified. I did a lvl 50 respec the other day any stuff was spawning minus 2 and 3 lvls below it was ridiculous
So I agree with the OP idea, it works like this in AE you always get the spawns level you specify maybe they could make it the same for normal missions/TFs as well.
I wholeheartedly /sign this, especially since I have on occasion run into a mission and found 2-3 spawns of the appropriate level and then had everything else be +1 to that.
This can be tricky when you're dealing with either a relatively weak character or a character who is simply not designed to be combat-oriented, or you've got your difficulty up high and are forced to deal with missions that are spawning higher than you intended.
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
This usually doesn't bother me, but lately I've had some really bad luck and I've been encountering AVs two to even three, THREE, levels above what I specified.
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Was it Mynx? I'm a firm believer that, outside of TFs/SFs, the +2 Mynx is the hardest AV/Hero in the game. Except maybe Madame of Mystery who I remember is stupid hard for some reason but don't remember why.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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Actually, it was Requiem in the final Kheldian arc that was a whopping three levels higher than specified. It's kinda hilarious in hindsight because Arakhn was only one level higher than specified which made her a bit of an anti-climax.|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Was it Mynx? I'm a firm believer that, outside of TFs/SFs, the +2 Mynx is the hardest AV/Hero in the game. Except maybe Madame of Mystery who I remember is stupid hard for some reason but don't remember why.
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Then there was Diabolique who spawned at two levels higher than specified. Then Infernal was one level higher than specified and Dominatrix, Marauder and Tyrant actually had their appropriate levels.
I honestly can't see a pattern here, and if they were only one level higher than the mission setting allows, I wouldn't think anything of it, but this just smells of a bug to me. I actually cannot remember this being a case last year, but maybe I was just having bad luck? Either way, it's annoying and needless and really, it should be changed.
If running into the occasional spawn that is a whopping one level higher is giving you that much trouble, I humbly suggest your effort would be better spent examining your playstyle & tactics rather than suggesting to alter longstanding game mechanics.
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Your "longstanding game mechanics" are a few months old. The older difficulty settings didn't have this problem. It was introduced with the new ones. Since it doesn't seem like it's going to be fixed so that +1 spawns are smaller to compensate, I suggest giving me the ability to just remove them.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
If running into the occasional spawn that is a whopping one level higher is giving you that much trouble, I humbly suggest your effort would be better spent examining your playstyle & tactics rather than suggesting to alter longstanding game mechanics.
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And, really, what's with all the self-righteous "you suck" attitudes around here? The whole point of the new difficulty settings was to give us more control over our experience. Why is more control over my experience a bad thing? What, do I have to be at least "this" badass to ride or something?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The previous notoriety system also allowed for +level spawns, so it is, in fact, a longstanding game mechanic.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Your "longstanding game mechanics" are a few months old. The older difficulty settings didn't have this problem. It was introduced with the new ones.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Notoriety
"At the Heroic level, enemies will typically be equal to or a level above your character's level"
"At the Tenacious level, enemies will still typically be equal to or a level above your character's level"
"At the Rugged level, enemies will typically be one to two levels above your character's level"
"At the Unyielding level, enemies will typically be one to two levels above your character's level"
"At the Invincible level, enemies will typically be two to three levels above your character's level"
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| And, really, what's with all the self-righteous "you suck" attitudes around here? The whole point of the new difficulty settings was to give us more control over our experience. Why is more control over my experience a bad thing? What, do I have to be at least "this" badass to ride or something? |
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You'll also note that +level spawns used to be smaller than even level spawns. Old Tenacious would produce one of the following:|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
The previous notoriety system also allowed for +level spawns, so it is, in fact, a longstanding game mechanic.
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*Five (or six) even con minions
*Four (or five) even con minions and an even con lieutenant
*One even con minion and two even con lieutenants
*Three +1 minions
*One +1 minion and one +1 lieutenant
*One +1 lieutenant alone
Tenacious was, basically, difficulty scaled to my level for a team of two. Setting the new settings to +0x2 +boss -AV would routinely produce a spawn of six +1 minions, as well as routinely gave me a spawn of a single even con lieutenant. Before, Tenacious gave me two-man spawns my level and one-man spawns +1. Now, spawn size is separate from spawn level, so I can get two man spawns my level, two-man spawns +1, one man spawns my level and one man spawns +1.
It's the two-man spawns +1 that kill me, and in this respect, the new difficulty options are harder at equivalent settings. I don't want my difficulty to be harder, but I can't make it easier because you're convinced "I don't need to." It's not +level enemies that bother me, it's that they show up in HUGE spawns. I can't reduce spawn sizes, because that makes them too easy when they spawn even level, and I can't keep them as big as they are because they're too hard when they spawn +1.
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| I never said anyone sucked. The game is already more than easy enough as it is. A little variety and some minor unpredictability is a good thing. A series of identical, cookie cutter spawns that never vary sounds mind-numbingly boring to me... |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Really?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I'm not asking for the game to be made easier.
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the new difficulty options are harder I don't want my difficulty to be harder they're too hard when they spawn +1 |
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I don't want THE GAME to be made easier, I want MY GAME to be made easier. Why does it bother you that I want MY experience to be different from yours? Why does requesting a difficulty setting you don't have to use seem to bother you so much you consistently try to sell me as some kind of whining gimp?|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
That sounds to me like you want the game to be made easier. Even though the devs have already given you the option to do so using the -1 level setting introduced in Issue 16...
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Enemies reward experience and Inf based on their level and their number. Whatever levels and numbers I pick, I'm not gaming the system. If I so happen to want mine to not vary by as much as yours, how does that in any way, shape or form bother you who apparently don't want to use it?
Or would you rather they wrote more stories and made more costumes, instead?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Are you already playing on -1/x1 and finding that to be too difficult? Or is it that you are playing on an enhanced difficulty setting and finding that too hard, but don't want to lower it?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't want THE GAME to be made easier, I want MY GAME to be made easier.
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| they're all large spawns (because that's what I picked) |
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| Enemies reward experience and Inf based on their level and their number. Whatever levels and numbers I pick, I'm not gaming the system. |
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you consistently try to sell me as some kind of whining gimp? the self-righteous "you suck" attitude |
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One mission I know uses this heroside is the 'defeat Atta' mission (regular story mission, not TF). It does 'ramp up' because the enemies at the front are normally -2 when you start out in the first few parts of the cave and levels up in stages from there, until the Trolls at the back are +2.| While that's true as an option for the Architect, I'm unaware of any actual developer-made missions that use this, outside of specific unique tasks like the 5th Column TF, and that's just as likely coded with specifics, rather than "just ramp down." |
I have seen this in a few missions outside of TFs.
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That doesn't sound like wanting the game to be made easier, but rather wanting the difficulty to be consistent, whether it's set to -1 level or +4 level.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Really?
That sounds to me like you want the game to be made easier. Even though the devs have already given you the option to do so using the -1 level setting introduced in Issue 16... |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
This is really starting to bug me at this point. You know how, when you define the level of enemies you want to fight in a mission (say, +0, +1 and so forth), the game will actually spawn that or one above? Here's how it works. When you pick what level enemies you want to fight at, what this actually affects is the level of your mission. Before you start it, the mission in your missions list will be displayed as your level, but once you enter, it will go up or down to match the level you have selected. From the level of the mission, enemies will spawn either at the mission's level, or at the mission's level plus one.
I don't want this.
So, I'm here to suggest an alternative. How about an option that says "I'm very picky, and I want to fight EXACTLY the enemies I've specified!" which will force missions to spawn enemies of the level I've requested and THAT LEVEL ONLY? I mean, I picked -1 as my level. Wouldn't it make sense to respect that? Instead of, you know, disrespecting my wishes and filling my mission with even cons anyway.
My personal interest here is that I want to fight lots of weak enemies, and the only reason I can fight as many as I can is because they're low level. If the game ignores my difficulty and boosts their level anyway, it just makes it needlessly, unamusingly hard when I didn't want that!
It's actually worse now that enemy level has been dissociated with spawn size. Right now, picking "I am equal to this many heroes/villains" will give you a set spawn size that will remain as big regardless of what level it spawns as. Before, higher-level spawns would show up much smaller with low-level spawns spawning larger. Right now, they're all large spawns (because that's what I picked), so I end up fighting spawns that are both large AND high level. That just sucks, and it's the source of the bulk of my grievances with difficulty.
So, to put it simply, can we please have an option to force missions to spawn only the level we specified without ever deviating?