Is there a reason we can't have Crossbows for Weapons on Archery and Trick Archery Toons?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-05 11:00 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
You'd need to do new animations for EVERY bow power.
Then you'd need to make them work with Male, Female and Huge models.
Thats 27 new animations just for Archery. Now factor in Trick Arrow, cos you can BET people would want that too.
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The primary reason is animations. Warriors have 1 crossbow attack which is used with one model. Making a crossbow powerset for Archery would require a LOT more animations. Every power would need 6 animations I believe (one for each body type and separate ones for ground and flying) so that's a total of 54 new animations (i.e. the same as a new powerset).
The other potential issue is that it's not clear if a powerset can have access to two different weapon types (I would think it could but I've never seen a dev comment one way or the other).
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AR can choose between super soaker, SMG, sniper and assault rifles |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The other potential issue is that it's not clear if a powerset can have access to two different weapons (I would think it could but I've never seen a dev comment one way or the other).
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Yeah, I should have said two different weapon TYPEs. Crossbows and Bows would need different animations and would almost certainly be different stances (Bows are apparently Lefthanded stance, Crossbows would be either Weapon Stance or Gun Stance depending on if they re-used the warrior ones or made two-handed heavy crossbows).
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Originally Posted by Silverado
AR can choose between super soaker, SMG, sniper and assault rifles
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Couldn't they use the Assault Rifle Animations for Archery, then put a crossbow in place of the super soaker? It would probably cut down on the number of animations they had to do.
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It doesn't really work that way. The animation includes everything about the power. They might be able to get some mileage out of reusing part of the Assault Rifle animations (specifically the hand motions) but the Archery animations all involve a physical arrow leaving the bow and moving across the screen. Theoretically I guess they might be able to cobble together an animation that used the hand motions from AR and everything else from Archery but I don't think ti would look very good.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
Couldn't they use the Assault Rifle Animations for Archery, then put a crossbow in place of the super soaker? It would probably cut down on the number of animations they had to do.
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I'm just saying it would be a good starting place. I would say by using some or most of the animations from Assault Rifle, then putting the arrows in from Archery. At that point you are 3/4 cut and paste and it just needs polish to be done well. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
It doesn't really work that way. The animation includes everything about the power. They might be able to get some mileage out of reusing part of the Assault Rifle animations (specifically the hand motions) but the Archery animations all involve a physical arrow leaving the bow and moving across the screen. Theoretically I guess they might be able to cobble together an animation that used the hand motions from AR and everything else from Archery but I don't think ti would look very good.
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Use the same technology that grants you a choice between alternate animations in Martial Arts and Super Strength.
Add in 5 or 6 crossbows and speargun choices and we are set.
I never expected it to be something done in one person's lunch break. But I also don't think its as hard as you are making out.
I think this is impractical for all the reasons stated.
I think a shorter solution would be to allow dual hand crossbows for dual pistols characters. Hell, they could even still shoot bullets for all I care.
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I don't think they would want to go through the effort of making the animations unless they were making a new power set for crossbows. Which would be neat, but I'd rather see energy rifles first.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I'm just saying it would be a good starting place. I would say by using some or most of the animations from Assault Rifle, then putting the arrows in from Archery. At that point you are 3/4 cut and paste and it just needs polish to be done well.
Use the same technology that grants you a choice between alternate animations in Martial Arts and Super Strength. Add in 5 or 6 crossbows and speargun choices and we are set. I never expected it to be something done in one person's lunch break. But I also don't think its as hard as you are making out. |
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I would agree with you that I don't mind if they use bullets either. Since crossbow bolts are much smaller than a Bow's arrow. |
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I think this is impractical for all the reasons stated.
I think a shorter solution would be to allow dual hand crossbows for dual pistols characters. Hell, they could even still shoot bullets for all I care. Lewis |
But if they did it they would have to make it for both Dual Pistol, small crossbows and Assault Rifle with heavy crossbow.
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Hmmmmmm, a heavy crossbow with a flamethrower attachment.... that does sound kind of cool......
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I would agree with you that I don't mind if they use bullets either. Since crossbow bolts are much smaller than a Bow's arrow.
But if they did it they would have to make it for both Dual Pistol, small crossbows and Assault Rifle with heavy crossbow. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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BaB's workload would be identical to creating an entirely new powerset. So for instance instead of Demon Summoning he could do this.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I never expected it to be something done in one person's lunch break. But I also don't think its as hard as you are making out.
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Edit: Could have done this, I should say. Since Demon Summoning is already mostly done.
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I love how easily you just accept that. The item most people want in the game is new powers and new customization. |
Originally Posted by Oldeb
BaB's workload would be identical to creating an entirely new powerset. So for instance instead of Demon Summoning he could do this.
Edit: Could have done this, I should say. Since Demon Summoning is already mostly done. |
Demon Summoning is way harder to do. There are probably 6 demons. Each has 3 costumes. They all probably have about 9 to 10 power animations each.
Then you have to write the AI for each of them.
Then you have to beta test it.
Then you have to rebalance.
Test it again.
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With Crossbow there isn't anything game wise to balance. You use an existing set and cut and paste new animations. But the animations aren't knew you can really just take them from another set.
I even said I'd be happy if they put crossbow in Assault Rifle. Did not change the ammunition. I would ask that they give us new sound effects, but if that's too hard to make I'll get my little cousin making some sound effect files for the swooshing sounds and send it to BaBs.
If they want to make a new crossbow set out of it. That's fine by me. I just want more abilty to make the toons I have in my head. I'm not sure we need another War Mace / Battle Axe deal though, where you could just have easily used the same powers with different weapon models.
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Six demons is a good bet. 9-10 power animations each? Not so much. Tier 1 henchmen typically have four or five attacks when fully upgraded. Tier 3 are typically have six to eight.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
There are probably 6 demons. Each has 3 costumes. They all probably have about 9 to 10 power animations each.
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And they do not have 3 costumes. They have one model. Models that are the same can reuse the same animation even if they have a different "costume look". For example the power animations for your Thugs Bruiser are all the same regardless of what model the game has in place. So the Bruiser does not have 24 animations for it's powers. It has 8. (That's fudging a bit, since it doesn't count combat stance or other transition animations. But that's getting too technical for me.)
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| Then you have to write the AI for each of them. |
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| Then you have to beta test it. |
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| Then you have to rebalance. |
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| Test it again. |
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| With Crossbow there isn't anything game wise to balance. You use an existing set and cut and paste new animations. But the animations aren't knew you can really just take them from another set. |
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| I even said I'd be happy if they put crossbow in Assault Rifle. |
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| I would ask that they give us new sound effects, but if that's too hard to make I'll get my little cousin making some sound effect files for the swooshing sounds and send it to BaBs. |
Paragon Studios is hiring though. Tell you cousin to send in an application. I'm sure programming the game is a cinch.
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My little cousin is five. And he loves to make all sorts of noises. Programing is probably not his forte.
I just think a Crossbow is low hanging fruit. Easy to add to the game.
BaBs still has to test stuff.
Either way, someone should be making my crossbows.
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So you're a computer programmer with loads of experience with the EXACT game engine they are using? (which means you work at Paragon Studios, because as far as I know CoH is the ONLY game using this engine) |
Originally Posted by Talionis
My little cousin is five. And he loves to make all sorts of noises. Programing is probably not his forte.
I just think a Crossbow is low hanging fruit. Easy to add to the game. BaBs still has to test stuff. Either way, someone should be making my crossbows. |
Sure sounds like it, since you keep saying this is so easy to do. It's very doubtful that doing all this is just "cut and paste" like you keep saying.
Did you know that every single attack animation in every set that you can use a shield with was altered slightly in order to work with the shield? Every. Single. One. And they had to create an entirely new combat stance to use with it.
That's why it took us so long to get Shields in the first place. Dual Blades and Shields were the sets that won the voting contest to see what powersets they were going to give us for melee ATs. We got Willpower instead of Shield Defense back then because Shields was a LOT of work to do.
What you're essentially asking for is an entirely new powerset, that is not an entirely new powerset. BaBs's workload remains just about the same, but Castle and the other powers guys won't have to do much with it.
If all this stuff is SO easy, why aren't we getting new stuff every month? You think they works for a couple days and take a few weeks off every time they add something? Programming a video game is incredibly time consuming. Doing this would take time out of the animator's days that could be used on something brand new, like oh, I dunno, the giant expansion that is coming out soon that likely isn't completely finished.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
When they designed this engine they said that they couldn't change weapon design.
They were able to.
When they designed the engine they said that they couldn't change the color of powers.
They were able to.
I'm asking them to do things they have already done. Not the supposed impossible -- the Dev's have a history of telling us they can't do stuff or its too hard, then they do go and do it.
Applying what they have done before and saying none of what I'm asking for has to be re thought threw.
Now if you think other things are higher priority. Maybe I'd agree with that. I'd personally like a staff fighting set much more than crossbows, but that really is new animations and balancing.
But, I think it would be less than a week of work for one employee. And I'd like to see a lot of little things like this thrown in.
When did Power get a second account?
I could see it being possible to add a second set of animations to Archery to have crossbows, just linking the choice of animations to which weapons are available might be difficult.... or just have two choices anyway and have it pull out whichever one for the power. Which again I dunno if they can do right now. So yeah, possible. By no means easy.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I love how easily you just accept that. The item most people want in the game is new powers and new customization.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I even said I'd be happy if they put crossbow in Assault Rifle. Did not change the ammunition.
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They have never said that anything is impossible nor too hard, too time consuming and not with the current programming are what is said. Meaning to make power customization (for example) took a ton of time because everything thing needed to be recoded.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
the Dev's have a history of telling us they can't do stuff or its too hard, then they do go and do it.
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Sure, the devs are supposed to listen to their customers, mister business 101 out there. And if I decide to start suggesting that the devs change the game from being about superheroes and supervillains to being about clowns that is my right as well, and technically Paragon Studios is supposed to pay attention to me. But I hope strongly that they assume a meth-head somehow managed to hack into my forum account and make paper airplanes out of my posts, because I hope they recognize stupid when they see it. I assume they will recognize futile just as accurately.
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Originally Posted by Thug_Two
I'd rather see energy rifles first.
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YAY I suggested that before!
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If BAB saw this post, he'd facepalm and blow up the internet. Your examples all took a large amount of work, not a week from one employee.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
When they designed this engine they said that they couldn't change weapon design.
They were able to. When they designed the engine they said that they couldn't change the color of powers. They were able to. I'm asking them to do things they have already done. Not the supposed impossible -- the Dev's have a history of telling us they can't do stuff or its too hard, then they do go and do it. Applying what they have done before and saying none of what I'm asking for has to be re thought threw. Now if you think other things are higher priority. Maybe I'd agree with that. I'd personally like a staff fighting set much more than crossbows, but that really is new animations and balancing. But, I think it would be less than a week of work for one employee. And I'd like to see a lot of little things like this thrown in. |
They were working on powerset customization for over a year before we saw it, and that was not just BAB working, either. And they're not even done with it: people want it for pool powers and epics, too: those are on the maybe list, as far as I know.
Crossbows would certainly be a nice option, and maybe they'll add them in at some point (though they'd all have to be mechanical... superheroes don't want to have to stop and wind their crossbow for 30 secs to a minute between shots). But do NOT think that this is a little thing you are asking, or that it would take time from a lot of other things people would like in game.
The devs are constantly having to balance out what we want vs what they can do, and they will never, ever have enough time to do everything that we want.
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Hey, I'm not wanting a war. I just really like more content. I like customization.
I have a lot of alts now and even more that I'd love to make. I like the game. I didn't go play Champions Online. I just want to have more options in this great game.
My crossbow guy wouldn't be the same with a bow and arrow. I have a few bow and arrow guys. I like it but I want something different.
I know that redoing a lot of things that have been redone took a lot of work. The coding when originally done didn't allow for easy customization. But the Dev's have done a lot of work to make things different now haven't they? It seems that if when they did all that work, I would hope, they made it easy to say add more skins for Assault Rifle, so a crossbow skin wouldn't take that long. I'm trying suggest easier ways to add more content.
AND IF I WANTED TO GET INTO THE SCIENCE OF A CROSSBOW HAVING TO BE WOUND. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE SUSPEND MY DISBELIEF TO PLAY THIS GAME. Someone can't shoot 100 arrows to make it Rain Arrows either. Its a game.
I noticed that the warriors have crossbows. Why can't we? I would think that it would be a reasonable weapon look to use.
I know its not just putting the crossbow over the other animation, but the animations exist. So it seems like it would be easy to do.
I guess Ninja Masterminds might also want crossbows.
I mean Huntress uses a crossbow. Green Arrow sometimes uses a crossbow. Buffy the Vampire Slayer uses crossbows. I'm sure other superheroes have used crossbows instead of bows.
Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to do.