Anyone else never use IOs?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-03-04 21:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm with Sam here, especially since I exemplar so much. I can just grab the character I want and not have to worry about what set bonuses I'm losing at which level, and just play.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't WANT a mutant, deformed, disorderly build dictated by what levels each set is good at.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
I've never been a fan of what set bonuses do on exemplar. I think I understand some of the reasons it was done, but I don't think it's terribly enjoyable, or fits that well with the other realities of the game. But on the other hand, I'm not sure it's going anywhere, or that it's actually worth them spending much time working on it. Time may tell.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well, if you have a character with all SOs, and you exemp, you don't lose any set bonuses. If you do have a character with set bonuses, and you lose them all, your build should be more or less like the exemped SO-only character.|
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
I'm with Sam here, especially since I exemplar so much. I can just grab the character I want and not have to worry about what set bonuses I'm losing at which level, and just play.
--NT |
The trick is to not care whether you have the set bonuses or not. Then it doesn't matter. It's zen.
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Well, isn't the solution to that to have enhancements that don't have set bonuses to worry about, and in return come with reduced rarity and/or cost? I mean, it would seem to make sense.
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Originally Posted by Camper
The trick is to not care whether you have the set bonuses or not. Then it doesn't matter. It's zen.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Keep in mind that right now you can slot acc/dmg x2 into a power, but only if you choose an acc/dmg from two different sets. In other words, you can slot acc/dmg from Set A and another acc/dmg from Set B, but you cannot slot two acc/dmg from Set C. So that acts as a bit of a limiter to what you can slot into powers. If generic double/triple enhancers were made, I don't know if those restrictions would work.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, isn't the solution to that to have enhancements that don't have set bonuses to worry about, and in return come with reduced rarity and/or cost? I mean, it would seem to make sense.
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Whether or not the devs would have a problem with that, I don't know, but I figured I'd throw that out there.
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Good point. I figure if we release this in SO as enhancements that turn red and drop off and then double-up on it as Commons that have similar percentages but don't, that might take a bite out of what many people feel is a NEED to get into Inventions Sets to either stay competitive or get much-needed performance.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Keep in mind that right now you can slot acc/dmg x2 into a power, but only if you choose an acc/dmg from two different sets. In other words, you can slot acc/dmg from Set A and another acc/dmg from Set B, but you cannot slot two acc/dmg from Set C. So that acts as a bit of a limiter to what you can slot into powers. If generic double/triple enhancers were made, I don't know if those restrictions would work.
Whether or not the devs would have a problem with that, I don't know, but I figured I'd throw that out there. |
I've heard a lot of complaints about Inventions in general, and aside from them being complicated (which is an argument I don't think anyone but me makes), by far the most common I hear is that they're difficult to obtain and require a lot of market know-how. Making them Common and even Vendor might solve this problem, while still letting sets do things "just enhancements" can't.
On the flip side, you do make a good point - might that not be too powerful? Does this need to be limited, and if it does, then how? One dual-aspect per power? Two dual-aspects per power? A limited number times an effect can be enhanced? I don't really know, but look at how this would play out.
If you were only allowed to slot two dual-aspect enhancements per power, then you could conceivably only get almost one extra aspect. Instead of slotting, say, one accuracy and three damage, you slot two accuracy/endurance and three damage, getting close to the same accuracy PLUS endurance reduction and the same damage, but no more.
If you were only allowed to enhance the same aspect, say only twice with dual-aspects, but as many times as you want with single-aspect ones on top of that, then you could have a power with three damage an accuracy and two endurance reduction and then alter that to two accuracy/endurance, three damage, but then what? You can't stick on more accuracy/recharge or endurance/recharge because those are capped, and you can't slap on damage/anything because it would be pointless, so either you stick in a dual-aspect something completely different, or you put in a single-aspect enhancement.
What this also does is it prevents you from taking a power that's slotted for 3 recharge and 3 damage and reslotting it with 4 recharge/damage enhancements, because you'd cap out at only two per aspect and then have to improvise. I assume 3 recharge/damage isn't quite on the same level as three separate ones, and adding another recharge and damage would just put you too far over the cap, wasting too much. So it might actually be smart to go 2 recharge, 2 damage, 1 recharge/danage 1 something else. Probably single-aspect.
I'm just brainstorming here, because I'm well aware that if left TOO unrestricted, multi-aspect enhancements have the potential to take over. But there ARE restrictions that could be put on them, and kept to ONLY whatever new enhancements get added.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Absolutely ridiculous argument. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"If I put" is where the disconnect happens. To put an Invention enhancement in there, I first need to obtain it. If I decide to obtain one that's even slightly rare, then that becomes a non-repeatable task, in that repeating it is too much of a PITA for me to want to repeat.
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Your desire to repeat something has nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to repeat it. I said it was repeatable, nowhere did I mention whether or not you wanted to repeat it, because there is no correlation between the two.
I could say: "I don't want to go to work today, so therefore I am unable to", and it would make just as much sense.
There is nothing physically wrong with me, my vehicle is in perfect working order, and I have nothing I need to do today that is more important than earning a living, therefore my ABILITY to go to work is unaffected. The fact that I don't WANT to has no bearing on it at all.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I submit to your superior authority.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Absolutely ridiculous argument.
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| Your desire to repeat something has nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to repeat it. I said it was repeatable, nowhere did I mention whether or not you wanted to repeat it, because there is no correlation between the two. |
I'll give you that the activity is "repeatable" in the purely technical sense of "can be repeated." In this sense, getting kicked in the crotch is a repeatable activity, but I seriously doubt anyone would treat it as such.
You also completely ignored the context of my entire post to insist that they are technically repeatable. If you REALLY want to, I'll give you that, in the purely technical sense, they are. And that was never my point. It was never my point that you could never get the same set of the same Inventions twice on two different characters. I don't believe I ever inferred that, and if you'll go back and re-read my post, I doubt you'll be able to find where I did.
What I outright stated, however, was that inventions are too great of an investment for even ONE going-over, and that this is not the kind of investment that's worth, or indeed feasible to repeat multiple times. It's POSSIBLE that you're going to kit out all of your characters with all of the best inventions, but I'd bet my third leg that practically no-one does that. Not even heavy inventions-users. In fact, as UberGuy attested earlier, investing in Inventions incites one to alt LESS. In his case it was for his own reasons, but in the general case, it's because it just takes too much time and effort to get a full set of strong... Well, sets. People WILL do it. But they will do it once. Twice, maybe, possibly up to a few times. Will they do it 20 times? 30 times? 50 times? Because I seriously doubt it.
Not only that, but practically everything I've ever heard from even people who basically live on the Market and people who spend their entire living daylight grinding TFs, is that they still won't kit out all of their characters, just the few really important one. Catwhoorg recently listed out the "current price" of his primary build and came up with something like 15 billion. Obviously, a very special build, but unless he comes down here and states that he has done it 30 times, or has the intention to, I will refuse to accept even the possibility of this.
So, really, if you want to beat me over the head with needlessly fine semantics, then I concede. Inventions are repeatable in the very technical sense of the word, in that it is possible, time notwithstanding, to repeat an expensive, powerful build an infinite amount of time. In the same sense that it is possible for a thousand monkeys banging on a thousand typewriters. But this was never a question of absolutes, and if you care about any sense of context or apparent intent (and I don't have the impression that, after multiple restatements of the same thing, mine is anything but apparent), then please consider the circumstances. It is not a question of "am I physiscally able to do this absent time, effort and interest constraints?" It is a question of "is it worth bothering." And, to be honest, you will have a REALLY hard time convincing me that it is, because I've seen clear, overwhelming evidence that it isn't, even from advocates of the whole system.
Please, don't insult my intelligence with claim of "ridiculous arguments," or if you do, then make sure you catch the entire context of the post you're quoting, rather than pulling out one sentence by itself. Do you realise that you're holding me to task on the semantics of a term of phrase I used for nothing more than theatrical intent and not in the slightest to carry the exact mathematical definition of what I wanted to say? If your intent was to catch me misspeak, then congratulations. You've done that. With as much crap as I post, that's bound to happen often. But if your intent was to counter my position, then you missed the point.
*edit*
Just to address your specific metaphor. If one day I woke up and realised that my work is at the top of a mountain that I have to scale via rope ladder and pick axe both ways in the snow and I'm getting paid hot dogs and potato chips, I'll suddenly find out that I very much CAN'T go to work any more, and that I need another job. In fact, if I keep getting more and more classes dumped on me in mine, that's exactly what's going to happen, and I actually DO have to scale half a mile of serious hill both ways every day, to boot. And as of last week, that's both ways in serious snow and ice. I'm not making this up.
And again - I am getting paid for my job. Unless I've been getting ripped off for the past six years, I don't believe I can get paid to play this game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So you've essentially already made up your mind that any use of inventions is "needlessly time-wasting" & requires "grinding" without really having any experience with it at all? If you've already made up your mind about it, why bother arguing about it here, other than for the sake of argument?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If an activity is boring, grinding and needlessly time-wasting, that is not repeatable, not in actual practice.
What I outright stated, however, was that inventions are too great of an investment for even ONE going-over, and that this is not the kind of investment that's worth, or indeed feasible to repeat multiple times. |
If you find the idea of the invention system repulsive due to your preconceptions, and personal compulsions, great, nothing wrong with that at all. That's the beauty of this game. It caters to vastly different playstyles so well. But, again, why expend all the effort arguing about it in this thread, when it really just comes down to your personal preferences?
I slot every character I make with set IO's, starting as early as level 12. Some get a mix of frankenslotting and common IO's, others use full IO sets, and a few get the real good stuff. In almost two years of playing this game, I seriously doubt if I've actually purchased more than a dozen or two SO's, between both my accounts. It barely takes any time or inf at all to grab a bunch of commonly available IO recipes off the market and get them slotted up. Doing this, I can get SO level performance as early as level 17, and start to pull significantly away from the SO curve by level 22.
In a way, that is my own compulsions at work. I hate the idea of an enhancement slot that provides what I perceive as substandard (SO) value.
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| Not only that, but practically everything I've ever heard from even people who basically live on the Market and people who spend their entire living daylight grinding TFs, is that they still won't kit out all of their characters, just the few really important one. Catwhoorg recently listed out the "current price" of his primary build and came up with something like 15 billion. Obviously, a very special build, but unless he comes down here and states that he has done it 30 times, or has the intention to, I will refuse to accept even the possibility of this. |
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| Please, don't insult my intelligence with claim of "ridiculous arguments," |
What it really comes down to, with all due respect, is your own compulsions are what prevents you from utilizing the invention system, not any inherent barriers or difficulty in the system itself. There's nothing wrong with that, but arguing about it is pretty pointless...
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Is it a problem that someone won't do it 30 times? Some people won't level a character to 50 thirty times. Aren't there people that, even after years of playing, don't have a single level 50 character? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What I outright stated, however, was that inventions are too great of an investment for even ONE going-over, and that this is not the kind of investment that's worth, or indeed feasible to repeat multiple times. It's POSSIBLE that you're going to kit out all of your characters with all of the best inventions, but I'd bet my third leg that practically no-one does that. Not even heavy inventions-users. In fact, as UberGuy attested earlier, investing in Inventions incites one to alt LESS. In his case it was for his own reasons, but in the general case, it's because it just takes too much time and effort to get a full set of strong... Well, sets. People WILL do it. But they will do it once. Twice, maybe, possibly up to a few times. Will they do it 20 times? 30 times? 50 times? Because I seriously doubt it.
Not only that, but practically everything I've ever heard from even people who basically live on the Market and people who spend their entire living daylight grinding TFs, is that they still won't kit out all of their characters, just the few really important one. Catwhoorg recently listed out the "current price" of his primary build and came up with something like 15 billion. Obviously, a very special build, but unless he comes down here and states that he has done it 30 times, or has the intention to, I will refuse to accept even the possibility of this. |
I have three toons with complete IO's sets: one with perma-am/hasten, one with softcapped AoE/ranged defenses, and one with perma-PA. The rest of my characters are in various stages of completion and I fully intend to complete them as well. When I'm through I'll have repeated the task 10 times. So your refusal to accept the possibility... it seems a bit foolish because people do outfit more than one character. Even more so, I've done it by playing characters that I enjoy and doing things that I enjoy, which does not include toying with the market for profit.
I'll agree with what Panzer said. Inventions can be very accessible. Basic IO's and using easily obtainable set pieces can greatly improve a character. With a small investment, you can reap noticeable rewards.
However, if you want to perform on the extreme end of the scale it will require a large investment of time. It's perfectly understandable if someone doesn't want to commit themselves to doing that, or to even using inventions at all. Doing so is just a playstyle choice, just as someone might choose to roll a new alt rather than grind through the late 30's-early 40's game. The only barriers to enjoyment are the ones we create for ourselves.
I don't think you're weird. In fact it does take time and money to craft enhancements, set or regular. Here's the only thing though.
Using non-crafting enhancements takes a lot of time and money too. In fact every 6 levels you need to redo ALL of them unless you were lucky enough to find the exact ones of the exact origins to replace yours and make it so you can fill some of the gaps. But you will still need to spend the time and money to stop by the store and by enhancements every 6 levels or so. This takes time to buy them all and slot them and money.
If you don't start til level 10, and assuming you only go every 6 levels, (Getting the level 20s at level 17 and waiting til level 23 to dump them etc.) You still have to do this 6-7 times.
Invention origins on the other hand... Well even the worst ones of a level range are comparable to the equivalent level DO or SO. And you don't have to replace them ever. You can run a level 50 on all level 10 enhancements. Yeah it sucks to craft them but if you do it like two or 3 times over the span of 10-50. Say once at level 12, again at level 32 then again at 47. You don't have to do it as often as you out level DOs and SOs and you end up with a noticeably stronger build.
And sets...
Well with sets you end up with fully enhanced powers and several character bonus's that stack. Characters well done with sets are freaking insane. It takes time, effort and money but I've gotten so much fun out of the couple of characters I've bothered to load up with sets.
Also I will say, Post Went worths and Post Purple recipes, money becomes less of an issue. When some purples can sell for 200 or 300 million, you only need to get one good drop to finance completely enhancing several chars with regular level 50 IOs or even getting some good sets for a character with money left over to craft and save.
Obviously not every purple sells for that much, but they aren't that hard to find if you play regularly. My GF plays a couple times a month and has found a couple. So it's not terribly hard to make good money anymore.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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Because people still feel obligated to drop by and tell me I'm stupid. I have two options: Shrug my shoulders, go "Shucks, you got me there, I've been so dumb since I9!" or I can further explain, AGAIN, that I actually have a reason for this that hinges on personal preference. I know that won't stop people from further trying to deconstruct my position and try to explain how stupid my arguments are, but you know what? I'm used to that. I've been called stupid over not using Stamina more times than I can count, including people turning a thread I made to ask about a specific power's slotting into a long-winded rant about why I'm a stupid doo-doo head and somehow a hypocrite because it's impossible that I could care about numbers and NOT want absolutely maximal performance.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
So you've essentially already made up your mind that any use of inventions is "needlessly time-wasting" & requires "grinding" without really having any experience with it at all? If you've already made up your mind about it, why bother arguing about it here, other than for the sake of argument?
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As long as people insist on trying to claim that I don't have the right to make these arguments, I'm going feel obligated to keep making them.
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| There's a vast gulf between an expensive build with all the shinies and the basic use of IO sets or frankenslotting. It seems to me as if you are using the most extreme case simply to rationalize your complete avoidance of the invention system. |
I have nothing of the sort with Sets. "There are cheaper sets, you know!" people keep telling me. And I know. I sell all of my Inventions recipes, so I'm well aware that there are, in fact, not terribly many expensive ones. But so what? That still cuts off a large part of the whole system based on supply and cost. And if I'm going to give up on some Sets because I'm not cool and awesome (and patient) enough to have them, then I'm perfectly willing to wave my hand and just ignore the whole thing.
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Sam, I think your argument is pretty ridiculous too. In very little more time than it took you to type out your post you could have purchased, crafted, and slotted a dozen or more readily available uncommon set IO's. All of which would offer more enhancement value than an SO, and never expire. What it really comes down to, with all due respect, is your own compulsions are what prevents you from utilizing the invention system, not any inherent barriers or difficulty in the system itself. There's nothing wrong with that, but arguing about it is pretty pointless... |
Remember, an argument doesn't have to make sense to you in order for it to follow a logical path. I've described the path of my logic multiple times now. If you can point out where it breaks, then I'd welcome the correction.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And as far as merits go.....I don't know what you spend your time doing, but I generally have a couple hundred merits on any given character by the time I get to level 50 and start thinking about IOing them.
That's just because I tend to run task forces as I'm leveling. I have never once "grinded" for merits, I either get them over the course of the game, or I don't.
Sam, what you said is that the SYSTEM of Inventions lacks repeatability or uniformity. That's like saying MATH lacks repeatability, as though adding 168 to 45 is going to have a different sum every time you do it. It doesn't, it will add up to 213 every time you do it. If you don't WANT to add 168 to 45, you don't have to, but that doesn't change what the total is.
You also act like IOing a character is an all or nothing proposition. Like you're required to spend billions on it in order to have any sets at all. It's just not true. I have exactly ONE character that has any purples slotted, and that's because it's the sleep set that was comparitively cheap when I bought them.
Yes, you don't like doing any of that stuff, I understand and accept that. But stop acting like it's so damn difficult because it's really not. You don't have to be a gourmet chef to cook yourself a meal. Similarly, you don't need to know EVERYTHING about IOs to use them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You have a point there. I suppose I should rephrase the question as "how likely people who get many characters into the high levels to get into serious Inventions? I'm aware that not everybody has multiple characters in range of the thickest Inventions Sets, and it seems to me that most often those who get into that are the sort of people who stick to a few special characters, rather than branching out into alts.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Is it a problem that someone won't do it 30 times? Some people won't level a character to 50 thirty times. Aren't there people that, even after years of playing, don't have a single level 50 character?
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Myself, I have 7 50s and probably as many others in the 40s, as well as a great many in the 30s. In fact, I believe that as of right now, of the 30 or so characters I have, only a single one is below 20.
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| I'll agree with what Panzer said. Inventions can be very accessible. Basic IO's and using easily obtainable set pieces can greatly improve a character. With a small investment, you can reap noticeable rewards. |
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| The only barriers to enjoyment are the ones we create for ourselves. |
-I don't like pie.
-But it tastes so good!
-I still don't like pie.
-But it's good for you! See, it helps you get a strong body!
-But I don't like pie.
-Look, it's so easy to cook it. Just follow this simple recipe and you'll be done in no time!
-Yeah, but I don't like pie.
-How can you not like pie! This is stupid! Everyone likes pie!
-Maybe, but I don't like pie.
-So, what? Have you ever tried it? I'm sure if you tried it you'd like it!
-Yeah, and I still don't like pie.
-You're completely unreasonable!
-I just don't like pie!
Can you see how that's not going to work?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And herein lies the problem - you try to apply utility that works for your style of gameplay to all styles of gameplay, assuming everyone does a lot of TFs. I, however, don't. And it's not out of some deep-seated hatred of TFs, I just rarely get invited to any. I don't team almost at all to begin with, and I practically never put teams together to do anything, so I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to put together a TF. And maybe it's Pinnacle and Victory, maybe I'm not in the same channels as all the cool kids, maybe I'm just unlucky, but I almost never get invited to TFs except when I don't have the time to commit to one. Last time I was invited to one, I had to leave in less than half an hour to pick my mother up from an event.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's just because I tend to run task forces as I'm leveling. I have never once "grinded" for merits, I either get them over the course of the game, or I don't.
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And story arcs just don't give me enough Merits just on their own, especially considering how quickly we level past them and how many non-arc missions hero-side has.
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| Sam, what you said is that the SYSTEM of Inventions lacks repeatability or uniformity. That's like saying MATH lacks repeatability, as though adding 168 to 45 is going to have a different sum every time you do it. It doesn't, it will add up to 213 every time you do it. If you don't WANT to add 168 to 45, you don't have to, but that doesn't change what the total is. |
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| You also act like IOing a character is an all or nothing proposition. Like you're required to spend billions on it in order to have any sets at all. It's just not true. I have exactly ONE character that has any purples slotted, and that's because it's the sleep set that was comparitively cheap when I bought them. |
I've dropped more games than I care to mention because they make some random aspect of their gameplay either unobtainable or crappy. MegaMan X4 lacked an ultimate armour for Zero, MegaMan X5 gave X's ultimate armour unlimited Nova strikes and so on and so forth. If I'm playing through a game once over, then sure. I'll pick up whatever drops and make the best of my good fortune. If I'm going to play a game over multiple times, then I want repeatability, which random drops, fickle markets and lots of effort do not provide. Yes, it's theoretically possible to find repeatability, but it's theoretically guaranteed that if I tried to obtain it, I'd ragequit LONG before that was even an option.
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| Yes, you don't like doing any of that stuff, I understand and accept that. But stop acting like it's so damn difficult because it's really not. You don't have to be a gourmet chef to cook yourself a meal. Similarly, you don't need to know EVERYTHING about IOs to use them. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Are you this hypersensitive in real life, Sam? If so, how do you function? Seriously, I'd like to know...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Because people still feel obligated to drop by and tell me I'm stupid. I have two options: Shrug my shoulders, go "Shucks, you got me there, I've been so dumb since I9!"
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Where in blazes did I say you were stupid? Oh yeah, that's right, I didn't. Nor did I imply it. For some reason, you seem hellbent on interpreting any disagreement, debate, criticism, or heck, even discussion as some kind of personal attack on you, when it clearly is not.
Seems to be a pretty common theme with you...
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| Again, this assumes that that "noticeable rewards" in the way of performance gains are in any way, shape or form the intended goal. I realise this can be shocking to many, but this is NOT the goal of the game for some of us, and in this case I know I'm not alone. Yes, I can get greater performance. To what end? So I can raise my difficulty and counter the effect? Why? Why bother with this? Why, specifically, when I can LOWER my difficulty and get the same effect? |
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I have currently 11 50's, and a few other characters of varuious levels. The higher the level generally the more io pieces or sets. Every character relys and runs off generic ios at least ,with other enhancements a stop gap until i get the salvage i require. It's just as easy for me now to swing buy a university or crafting center and hit buy, craft, slot as it is to search out a specific origin store and scroll through a list of enhancements. Plus just looking for damage and level in a menu is easier than whatever unusual names this group of enhancements uses. MY main 50 has handful of purple sets and all the other best A+ i could get. The cost would be in the billions easily. My other 50's would all have io sets but stopping short of all the greatest sets unless i happen to score them as a random roll or some such. In fact i had a streak of luck so i have at least half a dozen toons running with numinas +regens and LOTG's + recovery and a lucky level 38 alt with miracle. Io sets for me are something extra to do after i make 50 and carry on a character after investing time in it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You have a point there. I suppose I should rephrase the question as "how likely people who get many characters into the high levels to get into serious Inventions? I'm aware that not everybody has multiple characters in range of the thickest Inventions Sets, and it seems to me that most often those who get into that are the sort of people who stick to a few special characters, rather than branching out into alts.
You say this like I sat down and made a note: "I will not enjoy Inventions. So sayeth the Sam!" I didn't. The process is entirely backwards. I didn't devise the reasons and then set out to ruin my enjoyment because of them. I don't enjoy inventions. That's the originator of the problem. That's the source of all of this. I don't enjoy Inventions and all the justifications are born out of this fact. Even if you people manage to disprove all of my justifications for it, you're not going to convince me to like them. |
I thought most people were coming in explaining their use of inventions and justifications. Presenting both sides of the argument, not calling you stupid Samuel. But you're the only one who seems to keep appearing and insisting on decrying io sets. You've explained why they're not to your taste and why noones going to change your mind. Fair enough. Many players, myself included, like to see a hard built character get better, improve a little. Even if it's just a funny little number. If noones going to convince you to like them then their arguments aren't directed at you, they're more for the other players like the OP. You don't need to keep dragging your soap box in and screaming the evilness of the invention system to the heavens. It's been nobodys choice but yours to ignore all of it, not just the bits requireing major effort. I don't like PVP. I don't get it at all so you know what, i avoid any discussions about it because i have nothing to contribute. No ones going to convince me to get involved in it but i'm not going to but a dampener on other peoples enjoyment by saying it's terrible. i wouldn't spend 20 posts having a discussion with someone about how thier view point is wrong and getting riled about a perception of being called stupid but at the same time calling THEM stupid for trying to change my point of view.
I can't afford to buy a Porsche, so I just won't own a car at all.
I COULD afford to buy a car, if I went a little bit out of my way for it, but it won't be a Porsche, so I'm not going to bother with it. I'll just take public transportation instead, because it's available to everyone equally. I'll have to adjust my schedule based on the schedule of the bus, but it's okay because it allows me to avoid buying a car that's not a Porsche.
That's essentially what you're saying, put in a real world analogy.
Edit: Just for the record Sam, I play on Pinnacle exclusively, and I have no problem at all running a TF when I feel like it. I don't run them all the time, but I run enough of them to acquire a reasonable number of merits without "grinding" for them.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Not you in particular, which is why I didn't address you when I said it. Am I really this ambiguous in my phrasing? But this IS a common theme with anything I post regarding builds, balance, power choices or anything related. I didn't have a look at your reg date before I hit Quote, so I don't know if you were around back in 2004/2005, but I can tell you that I was called stupid many, many times because I refused to take Stamina. "But it can help you! It's stupid not to take it!" God, if I had a penny for every time I've had that said to me.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Are you this hypersensitive in real life, Sam? If so, how do you function? Seriously, I'd like to know...
Where in blazes did I say you were stupid? Oh yeah, that's right, I didn't. Nor did I imply it. For some reason, you seem hellbent on interpreting any disagreement, debate, criticism, or heck, even discussion as some kind of personal attack on you, when it clearly is not. |
As far as this being a common theme with me, call me fed up. I'm just tired of putting up with low-brow bully tactics, to I've taken to calling them when I see them. I'm less and less inclined to just roll with the "But I called your ARGUMENT stupid, not YOU!" back door excuse. If there's an argument to be made, I'm sure people can make it without resorting to kindergarten taunts.
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| I find the above especially amusing in light of your recently posted thread in Suggestions where you asked for the game to be made easier by removing the ability of +1 level enemies to spawn in missions because you found them too hard to deal with. Rather than change anything about your playstyle that might increase your performance, you'd rather ask for a longstanding game mechanic to be altered to accommodate you. That makes so much more sense than bothering to use an already existing system in the game (inventions) to increase your own performance. *facepalm* |
You talked me up and down in that thread, explaining how wrong I was to ask for consistency, and you still miss the point? I didn't ask for enemies to be made easier. I asked for enemies to be made CONSISTENT. I asked that, if I choose enemies of a certain level, that I get enemies of that level. Isn't that the point of the difficulty system? To let us set the difficulty to how we like it?
Your snark is appreciated, but you misquoting me is not. In fact, anyone who cares, have a look at the thread in question. Nowhere in there did I say that I was whole, completely, utterly unable to fight enemies +1 to my difficulty setting. I said that:
1) I don't want to, and I feel my difficulty settings should allow me to do that
and
2) Unlike how difficulty was before I16 where large spawns were the level of the mission and small spawns +1, now missions all too often spawn large spawns at +1, creating too great a variety in expected difficulty.
I don't find these impossible. I find them annoying. If I build to fight large spawns +1 to my mission level, then fighting small spawns at mission level is not interesting. If I build to fight small spawns at mission level, fighting large spawns at +1 mission level is irritating.
And again, it's not like I was playing at -1x1 and still complaining about it being too hard. I was and am playing at -1x3. I could, if I were so inclined, drop this to -1x2, but I don't want to, because -1x2 is too easy and not interesting enough without sufficiently large spawns. However, I did not choose +0x3 for a reason - I can't play at that difficulty setting, and I'd rather not be forced into.
So, essentially, what you're saying is that, instead of asking for still more difficulty settings, I should learn to play? How does that argument take into account the need for the new difficulty system? After all, if people had to just learn to play, what was the point of adding the -1 difficulty?
See, this is what really gets on my tits. You dig up an old thread, misquote me from it and then use that as ammo to explain how what I keep saying doesn't make sense. And then you clothesline me when I claim this is insulting to my intelligence? Really? You put me in a position of either conceding that I don't make any sense, or long-windedly explaining exactly how you misquoted me.
I don't take offence. I'm not sitting here frothing at the mouth, I don't feel my honour being hurt. It's just irritating, because you're creating still more busywork for me setting the record straight. And I know I could just say "Screw it! I'm not gonna' bother!" but this week I've decided that I'm going to stand my ground and I'm not going to let people just randomly misquote me and twist my words around.
And it's still not as annoying as dealing with Sets!
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And it just keeps on going...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I can't afford to buy a Porsche, so I just won't own a car at all.
I COULD afford to buy a car, if I went a little bit out of my way for it, but it won't be a Porsche, so I'm not going to bother with it. I'll just take public transportation instead, because it's available to everyone equally. I'll have to adjust my schedule based on the schedule of the bus, but it's okay because it allows me to avoid buying a car that's not a Porsche. That's essentially what you're saying, put in a real world analogy. |
I'm going to leave you with just a single thought to ponder: This is a game. I don't want my game to be like real life. I try to make real life as close to what I'd want out of a game as I can't, but I really can't in any big way. Does that mean that my game should be limited by what I can do in real life?
This is my escapist fiction. This is the place where I want to have what I can't have in real life. Would you kindly stop trying to explain the in-game reality with real life? Because if you do, then I'm going to bring out the "So if I can't fly in real life, why would I want to in-game?"
What you describe is EXACTLY what I don't like in real life. Why the Funk and Wagnall would I want it in my game?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's actually the crux of the matter right there. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And it just keeps on going...
I'm going to leave you with just a single thought to ponder: This is a game. I don't want my game to be like real life. I try to make real life as close to what I'd want out of a game as I can't, but I really can't in any big way. Does that mean that my game should be limited by what I can do in real life? This is my escapist fiction. This is the place where I want to have what I can't have in real life. Would you kindly stop trying to explain the in-game reality with real life? Because if you do, then I'm going to bring out the "So if I can't fly in real life, why would I want to in-game?" What you describe is EXACTLY what I don't like in real life. Why the Funk and Wagnall would I want it in my game? |
I CAN afford the equivalent of a Porsche in the game, with only a tiny bit of effort, consisting of nothing more than I would normally do. Sure, it's only a Boxster and not a GT2. But a Porsche of ANY kind is completely out of my reach in real life.
So that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing something in the game that I can't do in real life. Which would make it exactly the kind of escapism you're talking about.
I can't take on hordes of machine gun wielding thugs in real life either, but I do it in the game all the time. If I viewed the game the same way I did real life, I'd be giving my money to the gang member pointing a submachine gun at me in Atlas Park, because in real life I lack the ability to defend myself from a gun.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I didn't say you asked for enemies to be made easier, I said you asked for the GAME to be made easier. There was no misquoting there, Sam. Unlike what you just did with my post.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I didn't ask for enemies to be made easier.
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Okay Sam, I'm going to ask a question based on what I have learned about your personality in the course of this thread. It will involve a theoretical scenario, so bear with me. I'm trying to understand your mindset here (one of the things *I* enjoy is figuring out why people are the way they are)
Say, for sake of argument, that you are a musician because you enjoy playing music (I have no idea if you do or not, not the point). Playing music is something you do for your own enjoyment in your spare time. You are not a professional musician, so it has no bearing on your ability to earn a living. The goal of playing music is pure enjoyment of it, and nothing else.
You encounter a song you would like to learn how to play. But, in the course of learning the song you discover that you do not possess the level of skill necessary to perform it. You know that if you worked at it, you could gain the skill you need to play the song.
The question I have is: Would you put the effort into increasing your skill, or would you not bother because you would have to work at it in order to do something you enjoy? (i.e. playing music)
Honest answer please.
Everything I have learned about you so far through the course of this thread tells me you would NOT put the effort into it, because work and enjoyment cannot coexist in your mind. It also leads me to the conclusion that you do not play a musical instrument, because effort and enjoyment are intertwined by the very nature of playing music.
Edit: I ask this because I AM a musician, and my enjoyment of playing music is directly tied to how well I am able to do it. In order to maintain the skill necessary to enjoy it, I have to do a number of things I don't enjoy doing (such as practicing scales I never use in order to keep my hands limber enough to play). By doing the parts of it I don't like doing, my enjoyment of the parts of it I DO like is increased.
So, effort causes me to enjoy something more than I otherwise would. That, in a nutshell, explains why I use IOs as extensively as I do.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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But... The game is the enemies, isn't it? I mean, what other source of difficulty is there aside from how hard enemies are to kill? Serious question here. That's all we do - defeat enemies and click glowies, and glowies themselves do not pose a difficulty. Finding them, perhaps, though that's annoyance, but really - when it comes to game difficulty, doesn't it come down to enemy difficulty?|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I didn't say you asked for enemies to be made easier, I said you asked for the GAME to be made easier. There was no misquoting there, Sam. Unlike what you just did with my post.
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And again, it's not about "the game" being made easier, it's about the game being made more consistent. I have nothing against people fighting even con, +1 or +lots enemies, but I'm asking for an option that I don't have to. This is no different from people in I4 complaining that they don't like fighting bosses or people in I15 asking to fight more enemies, but of lower level. As you'll note, the old difficulty settings mostly increased enemy levels while varying spawn sizes between x1 and x2. It is now not uncommon for people to go up to x8, yet still stick to -1 to ensure the "mob of weak enemies" situation.
It's all about options. Yes, it's possible for me to try and build stronger characters, just as it's possible for me to gather a team for every AV that pops up into my solo missions. But I don't want to, and the game provides options for this exact thing. Well, all but what I'm asking.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But I'm still not dealing with Sets. Sorry.