Anyone else never use IOs?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2010-03-04 21:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
For me, pretending they don't exist would make build planning go back to taking days and days of thought and planning and crying over which powers I was going to have to gimp by not putting a full six slots into them 
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Well, there's always that, but on my scales, that's still a small price to pay for avoiding the bother of doing research and actual work. Decisions are difficult, I'll be the first to admit them, but worse comes to worst, you just have to make them and live with the consequences. It doesn't take actual work and effort to decide to just not slot Electric Fence for damage because I don't have enough slots to do that. "Oh, well!" is about as hard as it gets. Actually planning on how to eat my cake and have it, too and then actually doing it in the actual game is a whole other different level of bother, because it takes time, work, effort and knowledge.|
Originally Posted by Paladin_Musashi
For me, pretending they don't exist would make build planning go back to taking days and days of thought and planning and crying over which powers I was going to have to gimp by not putting a full six slots into them
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A decision you make and that's it. A character you build from the ground up, with all the resource gathering and management that entails.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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But, Sam, I don't "normally" slot for those "bonuses" because I can't. With SOs and Common IOs I literally can't have all that much enhancement, but I absolutely want it. I can't get more damage in my attacks than around 3 damage SOs worth because ED won't let me, but once I've taken up 3 slots with damage SOs, that just leaves me with 3 slots to get accuracy, recharge and endurance reduction. But long before IOs, I usually wanted at least two SOs worth of all three of those things - I would have needed nine slots per power to do that. Yet IOs let me achieve that, and that's not counting any set bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Right, so basically Inventions Sets don't give you more percentage, but rather give you more bonuses beyond what you'd normally slot for.
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Because you don't fool with these kinds of enhancers, you may not realize how just how much more effective even just that 9 slots per power effect can make a character, but I promise you, it can be quite dramatic.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
You don't even have to Frankenslot IO Sets to get really good performance.
On my main, a Dark/Dark Defender, I just went with one set per-power and stuck with it, and he's better than he ever was with SOs, simply because I can edge out most stuff without having to worry what set and what IO goes where.
In his heal, I just changed the slotting from 2Acc, 1End, 1Rech, 2 Heal over to every Touch of Nictus set, and it became a great power, with the added bonus of getting it to do damage.
Using Mids to make sets and design where I'd like my toon to go, where he might go, and planning out how to utilize the Secondary Build feature makes it a lot easier.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
Sam, just to play Devil's advocate here:
In the time you have devoted so far to arguing AGAINST IOs, you could have learned how to frankenslot your powers effectively.
You're ALREADY spending the time on it, except you're spending that time explaining why you won't use them. Think about how much time you've spent writing all the posts you have written on this subject. You could have learned the ins and outs of frankenslotting in less than that, and probably had it done on a few characters.
You say you refuse to spend time on IOs. You already have.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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That's a pretty cavalier way to look at the process of learning things, though. I've spent a total of, what, a couple of hours on this whole thread? Sure, I could have used the time to read up on Inventions. I could also have used the time to read up on analytical mechanics, and that's not a random "complicated" science I'm pulling out of the air. I actually studied that in university. It's not a question of time, it's a question of effort. I could spend all day learning about Inventions if it were interesting from a scientific point of view. I've spent weeks pouring over equations and numbers just to wrap my head around accuracy and to-hit.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
In the time you have devoted so far to arguing AGAINST IOs, you could have learned how to frankenslot your powers effectively.
You're ALREADY spending the time on it, except you're spending that time explaining why you won't use them. Think about how much time you've spent writing all the posts you have written on this subject. You could have learned the ins and outs of frankenslotting in less than that, and probably had it done on a few characters. |
But Inventions just aren't interesting to me. I don't CARE about performance about what I expressly need to solo my own missions on a civilised difficulty settings. I hate working with systems that lack repeatability or uniformity, and Inventions is exactly this. Trying to figure it out IS NOT FUN for me, so I'm not going to bother. Writing these posts is fun. I enjoy writing, and I enjoy arguments. To me, this is not time wasted, it's time well spent. This is fun! Learning about Inventions is like learning about RNA replication - it's boring and I don't care, even if my job requires me to know this stuff. I'll stick to running numbers and doing computer maintenance, and I'll do my best to pick the mathematics and informatics classes, and let the biologists handle everything else.
If I had something I could look forward to, like a uniform, orderly collection of same enhancements of same levels that I could buy up in one sitting, then YOU BET I would dive right into learning about it. But I don't. I've seen people's builds, and they're always a mish-mash of mis-matched sets of various levels scattered around powers with similar function but vastly different slotting. And every time someone mentions Merits or Tickers, I just have to roll my eyes. No, thank you.
Wake me up when they institute multi-aspect Commons. Until then, I'll be in the Commons pen.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's where we disagree - I DON'T want it. Sure, I wouldn't refuse these things if they were to, say, drop from heaven. But if I have to go out of my way to get them? Nah. Not worth the bother. I'm perfectly happy with enhancements as they are today.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
But, Sam, I don't "normally" slot for those "bonuses" because I can't. With SOs and Common IOs I literally can't have all that much enhancement, but I absolutely want it.
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But again, this has to do with Set rarity and messiness. Multi-aspect Commons and/or multi-aspect SOs AVAILABLE FROM THE VENDORS would solve that particular problem, but the chances of this happening are about as high as me being voted King and Queen of Cheese.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think Common IOs are the way enhancers should have worked from the beginning. I always thought the "you get weaker as you level up because your enhancers degrade in performance" was dumb mechanic... especially when they turned red and stopped working. Sure, there's no "ahh, this fresh set of SOs feels so good," but there's also no "dangit, I keep missing because my enhancers are-2" - the consistency is a win to me. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If I were going to just stuff a bunch of enhancements in there and never upgrade them, then what's the point of having them in the first place?
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As for me, I aim to slot characters with lvl25 generic IOs at 22 and never worry about them again until sets. The first set can be a little annoying because of how many there are (and I'm terrible at planning ahead), but after that, it's just crafting up 1-2 enhancements every few levels. Easy!
I tend to plan out IO builds for all my characters and just slowly work towards that goal. Some characters I never put a single IO in because I realize they're not for me. Others I'll get half done and think "close enough" and stop. So far, only one character has reached completion. (It's 1 IO away, but I'm not spending 2 billion on an IO that I may not even need, depending on how the "end game" system works.)
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I... Really can't disagree with that notion. As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see them offered for direct purchase for those of us who don't want to bother. I don't care if it's at inflated prices, like 500 000 per level 50 common. I'd still buy that off a vendor than fret over supply, demand and market fluctuation, and certainly without worrying about planning ahead. Inventions are superior to SOs in every way BUT obtaining them, and if they weren't "craft only," I'd probably be using them full-time. Since they're not, I relegate them to where the numerical benefit for having them outweighs the unpleasant cost.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I think Common IOs are the way enhancers should have worked from the beginning. I always thought the "you get weaker as you level up because your enhancers degrade in performance" was dumb mechanic... especially when they turned red and stopped working. Sure, there's no "ahh, this fresh set of SOs feels so good," but there's also no "dangit, I keep missing because my enhancers are-2" - the consistency is a win to me.
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And again - why are there no multi-aspect commons? It's a more complicated levelling system, but I could deal with it if it didn't come attached to rarity, set bonuses and non-standard enhancement levels.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Then I think you probably should have said...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's where we disagree - I DON'T want it. Sure, I wouldn't refuse these things if they were to, say, drop from heaven. But if I have to go out of my way to get them? Nah. Not worth the bother. I'm perfectly happy with enhancements as they are today.
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| Right, so basically Inventions Sets don't give me more percentage, but rather give me more bonuses beyond what I'd normally slot for. |
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| Right, so basically Inventions Sets don't give you more percentage, but rather give you more bonuses beyond what you'd normally slot for. |
But broadening the scope of the discussion a bit, let me give you a bit of an insight into why I think this sort of wish is actually very pervasive with the broader playerbase... How many times did we see discussions about whether or not one needed Stamina? Hasten? How many discussions in the old days about hating missing?
I don't know about you, but I think these kinds of discussions have become less frequent, and I think IOs are a big part of why. Part of that is due to the "special" IOs like Kismets, Miracles and LotGs, but part of it is also because "frankenslotting" or set slotting often already moves people towards better accuracy, end management and recharge, at least for powers with multiple aspects such as attacks, mezzes and click buffs/debuffs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah, I admit. That was my bad. I was trying to say what they give in general, not what they do for other people, so my choice of address was easily ambiguous. Sorry about that.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Then I think you probably should have said...
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But broadening the scope of the discussion a bit, let me give you a bit of an insight into why I think this sort of wish is actually very pervasive with the broader playerbase... How many times did we see discussions about whether or not one needed Stamina? Hasten? How many discussions in the old days about hating missing? I don't know about you, but I think these kinds of discussions have become less frequent, and I think IOs are a big part of why. Part of that is due to the "special" IOs like Kismets, Miracles and LotGs, but part of it is also because "frankenslotting" or set slotting often already moves people towards better accuracy, end management and recharge, at least for powers with multiple aspects such as attacks, mezzes and click buffs/debuffs. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Oh, I agree with you. I try hard to make clear the distinction between want and need, and I often weigh in on those threads that you don't need those things. However, I do also note that one's characters will often perform better with them. The question then, is do they want to perform better?|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Maybe it's just me™, but I've always been on the side of "No, you don't need these things!!!" Even back in the old days, I managed to do "just fine" without Stamina, Hasten or 5/1 slotting. Just fine here stands for "being able to solo my own missions without tearing my hear out. Things have only gotten easier since, and not because of Inventions. OK, perhaps because of Inventions as well, but for plenty of reasons OTHER than that. And, sure, we see fewer discussions to that effect, but I, personally, didn't buy into them even then.
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No one needs to play on higher difficulty settings (even the old, pre-I16 ones), but its evident that lots of people want to (sometimes to a fault). If one wants to solo and play on higher difficulties, having more endurance management, better chances to hit, and faster recharging powers are going to be important for their success.
If one doesn't really care one way or the other, then no, none of it matters.
I am one of those people who wants to perform better. I seek the outer edge of the envelope on whatever character I play. I couldn't tell you why I like doing that any more than I could explain why I dislike the taste of brussels sprouts, but so it is.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
That's pretty much where our opinions diverge, then. I'm much more likely to lower my difficulty settings than to try and make my characters stronger. Just as an example, I once played through the entirety of Half-Life on Hard, just to see if I could. And I could. But it sucked. Yes, it was doable, and yes, it was intense in a lot of places, especially Nihilath, but it was still very doable. I still ended up replaying it on Normal, because I didn't want to have to be this good just to score. I enjoy shooting things, but I'm not as keen on them shooting me.
Just as a random side note, a friend of mine said something back in 2004 that I've been repeating since: "Never judge a man by the colour of his name." He was joking, obviously, but it's become something of a motto of mine. I don't need my enemies to be high level and have purple names for me to feel like I'm accomplishing something difficult. All I really need is for there to be many, many of them. So thank God for the I16 difficulty settings. They made the game twice as fun for me 
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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They truly are a thing of beauty exactly because they decoupled different dimensions of "hard". I think a good system should allow different people to do different things. I think it's awesome that the new system makes both you and I, who have quite different preferences, to both do what we enjoy.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
So thank God for the I16 difficulty settings. They made the game twice as fun for me
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Well, I don't think this is the first thread on the subject of Invention Origin enhancements that you've posted in fairly extensively. I could be wrong, but I remember you discussing this before this particular thread. Especially since when I first saw the thread I was expecting to see a reply from you on the first page. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's a pretty cavalier way to look at the process of learning things, though. I've spent a total of, what, a couple of hours on this whole thread?
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On the cavalier way of learning things. I never studied or read up on IOs, I just looked at them when they dropped for my various characters. Took me all of 15-20 seconds per IO, and over time I gradually learned more or less what they all do. I never said "Ok, today I'm going to learn about IOs"
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| I hate working with systems that lack repeatability and uniformity, and Inventions is exactly this. |
Similarly, if many people all equip exactly the same enhancements on exactly the same powersets, it can be said to have uniformity, as many people attained the exact same performance using the exact same things.
What seems to be tripping you up is the variety of things you can do with Inventions, and the fact that you can achieve the same goal in several different ways.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Um...that's the price of a level 50 recipe, withoutcrafting.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't care if it's at inflated prices, like 500 000 per level 50 common.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's where we disagree - I DON'T want it. Sure, I wouldn't refuse these things if they were to, say, drop from heaven.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I enjoy shooting things, but I'm not as keen on them shooting me.
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Yeah, and that's two hours total, all together.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, I don't think this is the first thread on the subject of Invention Origin enhancements that you've posted in fairly extensively. I could be wrong, but I remember you discussing this before this particular thread. Especially since when I first saw the thread I was expecting to see a reply from you on the first page.
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| On the cavalier way of learning things. I never studied or read up on IOs, I just looked at them when they dropped for my various characters. Took me all of 15-20 seconds per IO, and over time I gradually learned more or less what they all do. I never said "Ok, today I'm going to learn about IOs" |
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| Actually, it is perfectly repeatable. If I put IOs in a character, and you then put exactly the same enhancements in a character with the same powersets, they will perform identically. |
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| What seems to be tripping you up is the variety of things you can do with Inventions, and the fact that you can achieve the same goal in several different ways. |
My repeated comments that I'd use milti-aspect Inventions if we had commons of that sort ought to suggest what my problem is - the fact that Sets come in sets and the fact that they're rare and disorderly. I dislike the set mechanics, not the multi-aspect mechanics.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Blessing of the Zephyr 4 point KB protection comes in delicious level 50 flavour, to satisfy all your irrational numerical cravings. :-)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I like my slotting like I like my numbers - clean, pristine and uniform. This is not the case with Inventions, not least of all because if I want knockback protection, I HAVE to have a level 30 enhancement even if I'm level 50.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
I like IOs for two reasons...
1) Because I don't have to worry about going red during an RP AE Arc at lower levels.
2) Because IOs offer bonuses that SOs don't grant. (Chance for Build Up is quite nice on a Defender)
I could easily get buy with SOs. But procs are fun!
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Huh? Is that new? Last time I looked through inventions, there was only one for resistance and one for defence, and both were at level 30. I haven't been keeping up with the times.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
Blessing of the Zephyr 4 point KB protection comes in delicious level 50 flavour, to satisfy all your irrational numerical cravings. :-)
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, Blessing of the Zephyr is 10-50|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Huh? Is that new? Last time I looked through inventions, there was only one for resistance and one for defence, and both were at level 30. I haven't been keeping up with the times.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Blessing_of_the_Zephyr
It's just that I only ever seem to get a drop from that set from Monty, so I guess low end drops are more common.
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This isn't likely to improve your lack of love for things IO-related, but if you make a habit of exemplaring, including TFs, Ouro and the AE, you're probably better off with a low-level one, and possibly not a Blessing of the Zephyr.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Huh? Is that new? Last time I looked through inventions, there was only one for resistance and one for defence, and both were at level 30. I haven't been keeping up with the times.
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The "special" single IOs that give a set-bonus-like benefit, such as the KB protection IOs, LotGs, Aegis Mez protection, etc., stop working if you exemplar more than three levels under the IO's level. So if you slot a level 50 Blessing of the Zephyr, you will only keep your KB protection down to level 47.
Because the BotZ set offers incredibly nice set bonuses, and the KB protection IO is a merit/gold ticket roll, the level 50 KB protection IO for the set is one of the most expensive items on the market. The level 10 version fluctuates wildly, but can be even more expensive. Levels in between can be hard to find.
So you might want to stick with Karma or Steadfast unless they just don't serve your slotting needs.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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BotZ? Seriously? I love it! |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
This isn't likely to improve your lack of love for things IO-related, but if you make a habit of exemplaring, including TFs, Ouro and the AE, you're probably better off with a low-level one, and possibly not a Blessing of the Zephyr.
The "special" single IOs that give a set-bonus-like benefit, such as the KB protection IOs, LotGs, Aegis Mez protection, etc., stop working if you exemplar more than three levels under the IO's level. So if you slot a level 50 Blessing of the Zephyr, you will only keep your KB protection down to level 47. Because the BotZ set offers incredibly nice set bonuses, and the KB protection IO is a merit/gold ticket roll, the level 50 KB protection IO for the set is one of the most expensive items on the market. The level 10 version fluctuates wildly, but can be even more expensive. Levels in between can be hard to find. So you might want to stick with Karma or Steadfast unless they just don't serve your slotting needs. |
But, yeah, that's yet another reason I have to hate Inventions - exemplaring. Call it compulsion if you will, but I enjoy having my enhancements be all high level, all the same level, and all orderly. The moment I have to so much as CONSIDER getting a lower-level enhancement because a higher-level one is actually worse, I just lose my will to bother. It's the same with practically every MegaMan game I've played.
Either X gets some kind of Hyper Armour and Zero doesn't, or I have to backtrack through all of the levels and use characters I don't want to play, or I have to either cheat or grind metals, and either way, this ruins my sense of parity and flow. Really, I can deal with all the trials and tribulations and growing pains of progressing through the game, but for the love of God of War, please let me get my perfectly-ordered, uniform build by the end, at least!
That's why I keep asking for multi-aspect commons. Screw set bonuses! I want all of my enhancements at level 50 with the same picture for the same effect. I don't want uniques and rares messing up my clean enhancements screen. And I know this may sound like a petty argument to make, but remember this: I've given up a Hamidon Heal/Endurance enhancement for free, and I've dumped at least three purples on the market for 5000 inf for this one specific reason above all others. I don't WANT a mutant, deformed, disorderly build dictated by what levels each set is good at. I want a stock, shiny, orderly one, even if that means less performance.
Currently, nothing beyond Commons is anything even remotely approaching "orderly."
*edit*
Seriously, I'm serious here. Can anyone give me any reasons why dual-aspect commons, and possibly dual-aspect SOs would be a bad thing? Just off the top of your head.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The only one I can think of is a matter of dilution. It really depends on how they get injected. If they come from stores but cost more than common IOs, they're probably OK. If they come from stores but undercut common IOs, that's bad for common crafters. If they drop from mobs, they'd probably dilute supply of other stuff and raise prices, though that's not a guaranteed implication. (They could go in their own drop pool.)
So injected into the game, no, I don't think they're a bad idea. You might be entertained to know that there is a thread on almost exactly this suggestion created like four or five days ago in the Inventions/Market forum. It was fairly well received.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Again, if Common multi-aspect Inventions enhancements existed, I might be more inclined to deal with them, since I wouldn't have to worry about set bonuses, rarity or which combos exist at what level range, or about losing my enhancements when I exemplar. But they don't exist, so I won't bother. If they ever pop up into the game, I'll think about it. Until then, I'm not touching the things, and I'm afraid I'm immune to convincing.