i17.. Did some1 say 'Content'?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-02-25 21:50 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
My opinion pretty much goes like this:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
You know...not that it really matters to me...but what would all of you who think 25 is to low, think of lvl 25 as the EPIC AT unlock? The halfway point?
|
1. Level 20 unlocks means more people play EATs
2. More people playing EATs mean the devs are more likely to make new EATs
3. ???
4. Profit!
Quote:
There are only so many hours in the day.|
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
Posi being reworked is fine, but what about Quarterfield, etc ??
|
Re-working the most longstanding offender in the "long, tedious, boring TF" category tells us they know they're a problem and strongly implies future repairs for other offenders like the shard TFs (and hopefully Bastion, er Citadel, which isn't tremendously long but is a boring series of identical missions)
Quote:
| As for the OP: Yeah, lvl 20 to unlock EATs just seems too low. |
More ATs available to more players is good for the game.
Quote:
| Oooo-Raa! for being able to go 1-20 then take a PB or WS 1-50 without leaving Atlas Park. AE is da debil and little good has come from it. The starter zones are now a bc hell, rookies think the entire game is about pl'ing in the AE and RMT, and wads of content go mostly unused due to this. |
In the end it doesn't matter if people play the "wads of content" you lament going unexplored or if they park themselves in MA and enjoy the wads of content created by other players- paying players support the game however they choose to spend their time.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Either way you are attacking your enemy. It could be perceived as being a cosmetic look as to "how" or what type of damage but in the end you are pushing buttons.|
Originally Posted by lionheart_fr
Not at all. A new power is not a cosmetic change; it affects your character's abilities and functionality within the game -- especially when considering that enhancement options can lead to variations in the power. New content is never just cosmetic; it provides new story and experience.
A costume part or color change is purely cosmetic. It's fun and I want more (lots more), but it doesn't change my character's abilities nor technically affect content or gameplay mechanics. That's why I tend to put it into the QoL category. |
Wouldn't new enhancements or ways of attacking your enemies with new powers "improve" the game for you? Wouldn't it improve your quality of life/play?
At no point was there a connection between cosmetics or quality of life. Although they aren't mutually exclusive. Reworking a HUD may be improving its look but also the way its used. Generally QoL improvements do the latter moreso than the former, ie relisting the emotes menu, allowing you to add more power trays, moving around said power trays.
All more about how you are able to use the technical side of the game and nothing to do with cosmetic improvements to characters or powers. So my point by your logic is, that if you are to cross that line of the technical interface standpoint to include game features such as power customization and costume pieces then the line has already been crossed and anything and everything added or improved to the game is considered QoL.
Instead, so far at least its only been used to refer to improvements to the technical interface and controls.
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Bee-Hawk Dee-tales Nee-Howwww!!!! >=d
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Quote:
Well, that sounds like all kinds of Awesome to me ..|
Originally Posted by TyrantMikey
I find it amusing when people in general complain about free content updates, QOL updates, and bug fixes like we get them in our issues.
Free, people.
Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. |
Posi TF Redesign? Sweet. It was a serious chore to run through, even if you did know it by heart. I mean really, 3 identical defeat all misssions in a row? Really? Really??
New Villain SF? Well, I might pop back over to Redside and try that ..
EAT's unlocked at 20? meh. Just means more dead squids hero side, and Lots More Knockback. Unlocking the Kheldians might let people play them, but it won't teach them how to.
Revamped Auction house?? Might be nice .. will they let me bid on salvage directly from a recipe finally?
Emailing influence and drops to another character? Huh. Never thought they would do that.
Ultra mode? I think my PC might be able to handle it, so ... cool.
Animated Tails? I thought they put that in with the Walk animation .. (Bow chicka wow wow).
Color me Happy. To the Doomsayers who didn't get exactly what they wanted? Meh. Variants of the OP's first post have been around for years. Too bad no one has kept an archive of the Best Whines.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
Quote:
The line is blurred for a lot of people then. The folks who were griping about Power Spectrum being all QoL did so because there was little new content, but was all about coloring our powers. I've been basing a lot of my perceptions on reading the forums.|
Originally Posted by Sin_Stalker
Either way you are attacking your enemy. It could be perceived as being a cosmetic look as to "how" or what type of damage but in the end you are pushing buttons.
Wouldn't new enhancements or ways of attacking your enemies with new powers "improve" the game for you? Wouldn't it improve your quality of life/play? At no point was there a connection between cosmetics or quality of life. Although they aren't mutually exclusive. Reworking a HUD may be improving its look but also the way its used. Generally QoL improvements do the latter moreso than the former, ie relisting the emotes menu, allowing you to add more power trays, moving around said power trays. All more about how you are able to use the technical side of the game and nothing to do with cosmetic improvements to characters or powers. So my point by your logic is, that if you are to cross that line of the technical interface standpoint to include game features such as power customization and costume pieces then the line has already been crossed and anything and everything added or improved to the game is considered QoL. Instead, so far at least its only been used to refer to improvements to the technical interface and controls. |
The difference some people make between QoL and content is whether it adds something new to do or not. If it gives you something new to do. Of course, that interpretation relegates anything that is not story/mission to QoL.
I do get what you're saying now. We have been getting a lot of tech improvements (which are fantastic). I think a lot of what we've been getting is on offshoot of GR development, which may also be why the dev content has been lighter. I consider Mission Architect to be major content, but many don't because it's not dev/canon content.
Much of what we've gotten in the last few books is cosmetic/tech improvements. I've been very happy with them, but then I still haven't hit the cap (severe altitis) and have a lot of content left to do.
I agree with the OP that I17 has a lack of content (content being defined here as new, dev-created mission arcs, TFs, SFs, & Trials). Posi being reworked is nice, but unless it is seriously revamped I wouldn't count it as content.
I wouldn't mind a content-light issue if we didn't have a string of them leading up to now.
Bearing in mind that Issue 13 released in December of 2008, here's what we have since then (including I17):
Thanks, Demobot!
Quote:
So, what, a grand total of eight arcs (I think Daed and Arl have two each), one new TF, one new SF, and a reworked TF... this is supposed to be almost a year and a half of content?|
Originally Posted by Demobot
Issue XIII Added Daedalus and Sister Arlia to Cimerora (35-50).
Issue XIV Added the Mission Architect (1-50). Issue XV Added the Dr. Kahn TF and Barracuda SF (both 45-50). Issue XVI No new missions or task forces, but Super Sidekicking was introduced and many zones had their entry levels removed. The new difficulty options were a big plus. Issue XVII Adding new story arcs (20-30), two for heroes and two for villains. Positron TF is being split into two halves (whether or not both TFs are in the 10-15 remains to be seen). Kheld/SoA unlock reduced to level 20. Subject to change. |
Obviously the MA was supposed to play a bigger role in providing new content. At the outset I was very excited for the player-developed content, but I found that the vast majority of it was either mediocre or farm-bait. Every once in a while I would find a great arc, but they were few and far between. By now I imagine there is a decent amount of truly good content on the MA, but the people I usually team with aren't that interested, and I prefer teaming to solo play.
My hope is that GR will get us back on the right track as far as content goes. I don't think it's helpful to label everyone who is asking for more content as a whiny DOOMer, even if the OP in this case came across as a whiny DOOMer.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
So given the long history of Posi being the poster child for terrible, boring TFs, you expect the devs to give it a quick pass and called it good? Knowing ahead of time that any insufficently radical fix would trigger a mass ****-fit among the forum hysterics?|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
I agree with the OP that I17 has a lack of content (content being defined here as new, dev-created mission arcs, TFs, SFs, & Trials). Posi being reworked is nice, but unless it is seriously revamped I wouldn't count it as content.
|
Uh....no.
Quote:
| I wouldn't mind a content-light issue if we didn't have a string of them leading up to now. |
The devs created the tools that empowered players to create the content- heck, one of those players did such a bang-up job that he's now a dev.
I understand that whining about how little content we've gotten over the past few years requires intentionally ignoring a lot of things and carefully constructing your definition to exclude revolutionary systems like MA, but it's wasted effort. Anyone who's played the game knows the devs have delivered tremendous improvements to core gameplay as well as a nearly infinite fount of 'content' (defined as "new missions to run that earn rewards", which is an entirely reasonable metric).
Quote:
| ....whiny DOOMer. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Obviously if you enjoy MA content, then more power to you. I disagree with your assertion that creating the MA allows the devs to pump out virtually content free QoL updates for a year and a half.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I understand that whining about how little content we've gotten over the past few years requires intentionally ignoring a lot of things and carefully constructing your definition to exclude revolutionary systems like MA, but it's wasted effort. Anyone who's played the game knows the devs have delivered tremendous improvements to core gameplay as well as a nearly infinite fount of 'content' (defined as "new missions to run that earn rewards", which is an entirely reasonable metric).
|
Neither of us have the numbers to show how many people are using the MA versus Dev-made content, so this point devolves into a "he said, she said" argument.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Seriously, Someone give OverkillGa a bottle and change his diaper already.
The only thing that can ruin any game ...Freakin' whinners
We shall defend our game, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the forums, we shall fight on the news, we shall fight on Facebook and in twitter, we shall fight on the internet and at the corporate offices; we shall never surrender.
-Inspiration from Winston Chruchill
Quote:
The popularity of a given feature is irrelevant when considering whether or not it qualifies as "content" (and based on the volume of 'MA is killing the game because everybody is in MA and ignoring the real game' rants we've seen in the past few months, MA's popularity seems greater than you credit).|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
Neither of us have the numbers to show how many people are using the MA versus Dev-made content, so this point devolves into a "he said, she said" argument.
|
How many people use the market?
We don't know, but it's content.
How many people run the STF?
We don't know, but it's content.
How many people camp out at the tailor and spend hours tweaking their character's appearance?
We don't know, but it's content.
How many people run around collecting exploration badges?
We don't know, but it's content.
etc etc etc.
MA presents vast vistas of content, by any reasonable definition.
An argument predicated on ignoring that reality is crippled at birth and unfit to survive in the wild.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
However one defines content, the fact remains that it's reasonable to debate how Paragon should allocate resources. Their job is to make sure people keep subscribing to the game, and if they spend 90% of their time on something only 10% of the players want, eventually it's going to catch up with them.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The popularity of a given feature is irrelevant when considering whether or not it qualifies as "content" (and based on the volume of 'MA is killing the game because everybody is in MA and ignoring the real game' rants we've seen in the past few months, MA's popularity seems greater than you credit).
|
On a side note, I think the reason people complain about the MA is because people are ignoring regular content in favor of power-leveling, not because they are using the MA as it was intended.
People are complaining about the lack of content as I describe it because they honestly want more content! Now, the reason the devs have not been focused on content may be because any work they do on it is going into GR. Most apologists don't seem to be making this argument, however. Instead, they prefer to ridicule anyone who doesn't think that everything the devs have given us over the past 18 months has been Pure Gold.
I think the OP articulated his point poorly, and I may not even be defending what his actual point was, but the response to this thread makes our community look like a bunch of jerks, and I know that's not the case. We should be able to agree to disagree on this stuff, since it's mostly subjective anyway.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Quote:
If they were spending all their efforts on junk nobody wanted, you'd have a point.|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
However one defines content, the fact remains that it's reasonable to debate how Paragon should allocate resources. Their job is to make sure people keep subscribing to the game, and if they spend 90% of their time on something only 10% of the players want, eventually it's going to catch up with them.
|
But MA is extremely popular, so your numbers don't fly.
Quote:
| People are complaining about the lack of content as I describe it because they honestly want more content! |
The point being, what you want and what is realistic are not necessarily compatible.
There are legitimate complaints and desires, and there are silly ones.
Complaining about 'no content since Issue Whatever' falls into the latter column. There has been a vast plethora of content released in the last year or so.
Quote:
| Instead, they prefer to ridicule anyone who doesn't think that everything the devs have given us over the past 18 months has been Pure Gold. |
Not the same thing.
Quote:
| We should be able to agree to disagree on this stuff, since it's mostly subjective anyway. |
They've released a metric ton of content in the last year or so, saying otherwise is ridiculous.
Sorry if that's embarrassing for you, but you're on the wrong side of the facts here.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
PC Gamer commenting on recent additions to CoH:
Quote:
| How has it improved since last year? 2009 saw three content updates, bringing new taskforce missions, power effect customization and difficulty adjustment options. But none of that compares to the introduction of player-made content. The Mission Architect is incredibly powerful and intuitive, resulting in a near-endless supply of new content to play and roleplay through at any level. Random elements ensure that your favorite missions are replayable. |
Guess they know content when they see it too.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Who says that dev-made missions are unrealistic? Why would anyone think that? This is something that other games do all the time.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The point being, what you want and what is realistic are not necessarily compatible.
|
Quote:
|
I'm ridiculing people who are claiming the devs have given us NOTHING in the past 18 months. Not the same thing. |
Quote:
|
This isn't subjective at all. They've released a metric ton of content in the last year or so, saying otherwise is ridiculous. |
Can we objectively say that the devs have worked their ***** off over the last year? Sure! But if most of what they did is irrelevant to my playstyle, then it's reasonable for me to say I think the devs should focus their attention elsewhere.
Quote:
| Sorry if that's embarrassing for you, but you're on the wrong side of the facts here. |
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
One thing to bear in mind is that different dev teams work on different aspects of the game. It may well be that content designers have been spending the lion's share of their time on Going Rogue (hopefully this will be justified by the amount of content we receive when GR releases), while others have been working on tech, art, and so forth that can be released earlier.
I think a lot of what we've gotten over the past year have been upgrades developed for GR. I may be mistaken of course, but it seems to fit the bill.
But the fact that the dev team has produced a lot of material that is not story content does not indicate that they've misallocated their resources; new art and game systems would be different dev groups from the content designers.
Quote:
This is my sincere hope.
|
Originally Posted by lionheart_fr
It may well be that content designers have been spending the lion's share of their time on Going Rogue (hopefully this will be justified by the amount of content we receive when GR releases), while others have been working on tech, art, and so forth that can be released earlier.
|
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
As for the OP: Yeah, lvl 20 to unlock EATs just seems too low.
Oooo-Raa! for being able to go 1-20 then take a PB or WS 1-50 without leaving Atlas Park. AE is da debil and little good has come from it. The starter zones are now a bc hell, rookies think the entire game is about pl'ing in the AE and RMT, and wads of content go mostly unused due to this.
*shrugs*
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection