Why the Red/Blue end recover disparity?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2010-02-21 13:02 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I believe it's because the Red Side archetypes are technically more balanced as far as self sufficientcy, except scrappers, being OPed, period.
@Mechaniker
Official Old Angry German Guy of CoV.
My Characters: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=247787
I wouldn't call it a red/blue disparity so much as I'd call it a stalker/everyone else disparity.
Brutes are more or less in the same boat as scrappers and tanks when it comes to endurance recovery tools - they lack regen and ice armor, but neither scrappers nor tanks have energy aura. For all other sets with end recovery in them, brutes already have them.
Dominators don't have end recovery in their primaries because control sets don't get them, but their secondaries do have end recovery powers in two sets. Also, they can get end recovery in their patron pools.
In terms of buff/debuff sets, the only sets with significant self +end powers are radiation, kinetics, empathy, and cold dom. Villains get pain dom instead of empathy, but aside from that, corrs have access to all three sets. They can also get end recovery tools in their patron pools. Mastermind's don't, but in the case of rad and kin, I'd be willing to bet the delay in proliferation is more due to worries over the power level of those sets than about their end recovery tools. Cold I presume they just haven't gotten around to proliferating yet.
Stalkers are the only ones who really get shafted, and this appears to be a deliberate design decision. My personal guess is that's it's part of an attempt to encourage quick fighting rather than sustained scrapping, but I'm not sure. Regardless, it's not a redside issue, it's a stalker issue. You'd be better off asking 'why the stalker end recover disparity', the rest of redside isn't really any worse off than blueside.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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Well, except for the fact that scrappers and tanks get Physical Perfection in their Epic pools...but no one else gets that at all, not even other blueside ATs.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Just an additional note...|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Dominators don't have end recovery in their primaries because control sets don't get them, but their secondaries do have end recovery powers in two sets. Also, they can get end recovery in their patron pools.
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Don't forget Dominators also get a FULL end recovery power as an inherent.
>.>
<.<
Why don't any of the blue side AT's get such a great inherent? If anything, Defenders get the only thing close (inherent wise), and the majority of the playerbase will agree that Vigilance sucks.
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
As others have pointed out there is no real disparity. Well, except for one redside AT inherently being able to routinely refill the endurance bar in an instant. Something no blueside AT can do.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Muon_Neutrino pretty well summed it up, other than overlooking the complete endurance recovery when activating Domination.
Stalkers are very energy efficient if played as designed. Build up+Assassin Strike will single shot pretty any minion and most lieutenants. Kill the lieutenant, scrap the minions. The fights ends quickly, without using much endurance. Carry a blue or two for boss fights.
Brutes become very energy efficient once fury is high enough that they can one shot a minion.
Masterminds can fight without using any endurance with just their henchmen. They'll be more efficient if they support their pets, but don't really have to.
That only leaves Corrupters without some energy advantage, and they at least are more efficient than Defenders, due to their higher damage and Scourge inherent.
Oh, and I forgot. The developers hate Villains.
A great thread with some very good responses, very much appreciated. I did post just after I woke up and was not really clear in that I was primarily looking at scrapperish AT's I guess. As for the other AT's, most of them are just a nightmare until you can get stam anyways, regardless of which side they're on, heh.
At any rate, thanks for the responses, good to see peoples thoughts on the matter... though it didn't every answer the question of dev statements on the matter (mostly stalker specific I guess, or brute lack of regen set!).
Great responses nonetheless
If end management is a hassle you wish to avoid you may very well wish to try a Dom there are several pairings that can be played quite scrapperish if that's what you are looking for.
Ice/Earth is a meant to be played in melee combination you might like.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
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Tanks and Scrappers also have access to Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.
Then again, nothing beats perma-Domination for endurance recovery...
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A dev made a comment that Going Rogue would level this particular playing field somehow.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, except for the fact that scrappers and tanks get Physical Perfection in their Epic pools...but no one else gets that at all, not even other blueside ATs.
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Trade you Vigilance for Assassination.
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Originally Posted by Humility
I am really curious if the devs have ever stated why blue has more end recovery tools than red does? Specifically, I was thinking about tinkering with a stalker. Yay, regeneration, double yay, quick recovery! Nope, shot down. Yay willpower, double yay, quick recovery! Shot down again. Body mastery? Nope, shot down even late in the build.
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ummm...seeing as defenders don't have hide, making assasination pointless.....|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Trade you Vigilance for Assassination.
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...I'd say it was a fair trade, on the defender's end.
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Maybe we'll get access to a non-patron power pool?|
Originally Posted by Catharctic
A dev made a comment that Going Rogue would level this particular playing field somehow.
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i'll be slightly disappointed if the only to access non-patron pools is to go hero.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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We can work around that little detail. Stealth, +Stealth IOs, Placate proc, etc. It's better than having to chain ourselves to teams or go to Bloody Bay frequently to get a Shivan so we can get any use at all out of Vigilance.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
ummm...seeing as defenders don't have hide, making assasination pointless.....
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We will also be very pleased with the ability to crit Held and Slept critters, since we have so many of those at our disposal.
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...I'd say it was a fair trade, on the defender's end.
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Stalkers can't crit on slept and held enemies anymore.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
We can work around that little detail. Stealth, +Stealth IOs, Placate proc, etc. It's better than having to chain ourselves to teams or go to Bloody Bay frequently to get a Shivan so we can get any use at all out of Vigilance.
We will also be very pleased with the ability to crit Held and Slept critters, since we have so many of those at our disposal. So we have a deal, then? *slowly rubs hands together, used car salesman style* |
Now they just crit on anyone, and get a bigger crit chance on targets, the more teammates in range.
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The BrandX Collection
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Funny, as how it's been shown BRutes are more powerful than Scrappers in almost every way. :P
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Originally Posted by DoktorMechaniker
I believe it's because the Red Side archetypes are technically more balanced as far as self sufficientcy, except scrappers, being OPed, period.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not only that, but there are Defender and Controller builds capable of soloing GMs, which is something that neither Brutes nor Scrappers can do.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Funny, as how it's been shown BRutes are more powerful than Scrappers in almost every way. :P
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@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Actually, Stalkers still do crit slept and held players. It's PvP only though.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Stalkers can't crit on slept and held enemies anymore.
Now they just crit on anyone, and get a bigger crit chance on targets, the more teammates in range. |
And I don't think Assassination would be very useful for Defenders as the crits are linked to 'Hidden' status which is only grantable by Hide unfortunately >_>
However, I think the scaling crit rate with nearby teammates would still 'work' if their powers were coded correctly.
Stalkers and Brutes do have access to /Electric, which has energize, and power sink. Might not be your slice of cake, but they do have +end powers...
SD
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There appears to be a deliberate pattern to the substitution of powers in Stalker sets. There MUST be a substitution, both Hide and Assassination Strike must be made available in both Primary and Secondary. Thus, two powers MUST be sacrificed relative to other meleers. For the Primary, it is typically the PBAoE attack which is replaced by Assassin Strike. So in addition to this stated lack of End recovery, Stalkers also typically have less AoE damage and more single target damage. |
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Stalkers are the only ones who really get shafted, and this appears to be a deliberate design decision. My personal guess is that's it's part of an attempt to encourage quick fighting rather than sustained scrapping, but I'm not sure.
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Regeneration and Willpower sacrifice Quick Recovery. Super Reflexes drops Lucky, which decreases AoE defense, although some of this may be compensated for with Hide's extremely high AoE defense when Hide is active. Energy Aura does not drop a power for Hide, it replaces Energy Cloak, thus it also replaces Damping Field with Repulse. Electric Armor drops Lightning Field, which is the set's Taunt aura. Dark is kind of complicated, but in effect it drops Death Shroud, (and all Taunt effects from other auras) and separates the defensive bonus and perception of Cloak of Darkness into Shadow Dweller.
In short, TWO out of seven Stalker Secondaries lack +Recovery bonuses, although they do happen to be the ONLY Secondaries that grant +Recovery to the other meleers. (Unless you count Tier 9s like Unstoppable and Elude) SR trades the AoE defense for more AoE defense in hide, while Dark and Electric drop the Taunt Auras, which would directly conflict with the Stalker's Inherent. Ninjitsu we have no idea what it would have had in another meleer Secondary. Energy Aura adds an aura for some reason, but some players have reported using the power as a momentary click-type power, toggling it off and back on as an AoE knockback. I'm honestly not sure what the devs were thinking...
Personally, I always felt the reason for the choice of Quick Recovery is that the Stalker playing style, as mentioned, is not intended to be sustained DPS. Assuming you make the best use of Assassin Strike, it should be possible to pause between attacks long enough to recover End. And since you are protected by Hide until you make your attack, there is no threat involved in waiting, where a Scrapper or Brute might be having to deal with aggro during that time. Even so, it's not really consistent, and it seems more like Quick Recovery was removed because Regeneration does not have a Taunt Aura, and Rise to the Challenge was replaced with a self heal, instead of dropping it entirely. Given the choice between Quick Recovery and Reconstruction, I'm sure most Willpower Stalkers would say give me the Reconstruction.
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"Hide"≠Stealth/invisibility. A stalker that turns off hide and turns on stealth will not perform a critical hit.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
We can work around that little detail. Stealth, +Stealth IOs, Placate proc, etc. It's better than having to chain ourselves to teams or go to Bloody Bay frequently to get a Shivan so we can get any use at all out of Vigilance.
... So we have a deal, then? *slowly rubs hands together, used car salesman style* |
My point (cheek-insert tongue) was that a hide-less assasination inherent would indeed be as good as vigilance, at least for good defenders. As both would have little value.
But on topic.
The two sets where blues get more blue, aside from stalkers, are Pain and regen. Pain, which is an odd cousin that shed its endurance-boosting powers for different tricks. Most of the new tricks have more to do with dealing/dampening pain anywise, so thematically this makes sense.
Regeneration is indeed missing for brutes: but I think I know why. Brutes have better HP- so a straight port is straight-up better. The OP mentioned 'simply' tweaking the numbers. Look back through the issues, and look how many times scrapers' regeneration has been tweaked/nerfed/changed/upgraded/etc. It's insane. The developers are wary of going through this again to 'simply' get it right.
The stalker thing? The archetype was built for burst combat, which would usually make long-term energy usage a secondary concern. Certainly the archetype has evolved, but it's still where a lot of the secondary's setup comes from. I confess I have played stalkers but a limited time, but their playstyle does seem to make energy use far more conservative than things like brutes, even when played at a faster clip. (This may come from fewer AoE powers as well, though.)
Yes, but having an AS without any critical hit chance would still be more useful than Vigilance, especially if it was an inherent.
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Without Hide (or Placate) Assassination would basically be a 10% chance to Critical, plus 3% for every other member of the party, plus the ability to Critical Held or Slept foes in PvP. |
Originally Posted by Teeth
Yes, but having an AS without any critical hit chance would still be more useful than Vigilance, especially if it was an inherent.
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That would not be as good a chance to Critical as a Corruptor, and it would not do as much damage as a Scrapper (as the Defender base damage is much lower) but it would certainly mean more damage than Vigilance. And would be usable solo.
And I think you mistook "Assassination" for "Assassin Strike". The former is the Inherent, the latter is the Stalker power that makes use of the Inherent for even greater damage. AS wouldn't actually be of any use without Hide either, as it would only do 5/14 of the damage. For a 3 second animation time it would not be worth it. And wouldn't be a substitute for Vigilance anyway.
Not a flame war, not a statement of either side being better...
I am really curious if the devs have ever stated why blue has more end recovery tools than red does? Specifically, I was thinking about tinkering with a stalker. Yay, regeneration, double yay, quick recovery! Nope, shot down. Yay willpower, double yay, quick recovery! Shot down again. Body mastery? Nope, shot down even late in the build. Willpower on brutes not getting quick recovery until 20(I know every WP build gets it at 20, except stalkers, who don't get it at all). No regen set for brutes (I know the higher HP could be problematic, but easily possible to just tweak the numbers in the brute regen set to compensate).
Now, I'm just wondering if the devs have ever told us why this disparity? I'll freely admit I do not like the end management hassle (especially the 10 to 20) and this makes scrapper regen a HUGE draw for me. Knowing I have quick recover there whenever I feel like taking it is a very very big incentive for me to choose that set. Heck, even with quick recovery I'll probably end up taking Stamina down the road, it's just how I enjoy playing.
Not interested in rehashing anything red v blue, or the pros and cons of stamina and end management. I'm just curious if the devs have made any kind of statement why the different approach and lack of proliferation of this specific ability?