City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Life Time Subscription

Ad Astra

By Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-02-16 15:50 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
No. We read it right. If she intended to say something else then she phrased it incorrectly.
LMAO! Holy crap man, you have serious neuroses or something. I think it is hilarious you are trying to pull others into it as well to justify this to yourself. "We" means squat... others read my posts and understood them perfectly. If you thought I was saying something else in the post, YOU (not "we") read it incorrectly.

 

Posted

Still No.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
LMAO! Holy crap man, you have serious neuroses or something. I think it is hilarious you are trying to pull others into it as well to justify this to yourself. "We" means squat... others read my posts and understood them perfectly. If you thought I was saying something else in the post, YOU (not "we") read it incorrectly.
Psssssssssssst. >.>

I read it just like he did. And due to the lack of inflection of a pure written medium added to the fact that it barely seemed like a reply to the quote written above it...

"Offering a $200 Lifetime subscription within one month of Going Rogue's Release would be a bad idea. Why? Because those 120,000 new players aren't going to plop down $230 on a game they've never played before."

"Read above where I am referring to NEW subscribers, not the existing base. Offering a lifetime sub is a good deal and can be an incentive for new subscribers."

And you get a very strange quote.

If you look at the Quote of my text in her post and then her reply it's as if she's ignoring the fact that I'm -talking- about new players in that quote.

So. Yeah. It's open to interpretation based on the person reading it, I'm afraid. At least until clarification is offered. But Ad Hominem attacks aren't helping the case any.

Ultimately, based on recent and past trends, offering a Lifetime subscription to CoH would kill it in a few short years unless there was another Paragon Studios Cash-Cow on hand to take up the massive slack of the payments no longer rolling in.

-Rachel-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Psssssssssssst. >.>

I read it just like he did.
Psssssssst.... I read it the way it was intended.

But yes, posts on a forum are always open to interpretation and what was written is open to interpretation (obviously).

However, the response was clarified. Telling a poster they are "backpedalling" and didn't mean what they posted even after said poster made clarifications to further explain the intent? That is neurotic.

Whether 1 person or 50 "read it wrong" is a moot point. Ultimately, the individual got it wrong.

I believe that is the point being made.

Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

True enough. But derogatory and rude ad hominem attacks like this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
LMAO! Holy crap man, you have serious neuroses or something. I think it is hilarious you are trying to pull others into it as well to justify this to yourself. "We" means squat... others read my posts and understood them perfectly. If you thought I was saying something else in the post, YOU (not "we") read it incorrectly.
Are the reason I also made note that I had read it in a different manner.

But I think that's enough Threadjacking for now? Let's get back to the original topic, Hmm?

-Rachel-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
posts on a forum are always open to interpretation and what was written is open to interpretation (obviously).
*puts on glasses*
*puffs pipe*

Zho... thell mhe abouht yhor fahzer.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

for the last time, unless you took buisness classes from teletubbies or one of those other shows for 2 yr olds, an ongoing game offering lifetime subs after running for so long either screams dying game or points everyone in that direction. if they want to offer them for CoX2, fine. but absolutely, possitively not for CoX. ever.

 

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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint View Post
for the last time, unless you took buisness classes from teletubbies or one of those other shows for 2 yr olds, an ongoing game offering lifetime subs after running for so long either screams dying game or points everyone in that direction. if they want to offer them for CoX2, fine. but absolutely, possitively not for CoX. ever.
Oh. No. With this I vehemently disagree.

At the launch of CoH2 offering lifetime subscriptions for CoX would be fine. Since most of the development staff would, instead, be working on content for CoH2. Allowing players to keep playing CoH1 (along with any new bits of content added to it) wouldn't be such a terrible idea. And offering both lifetime and monthly subscriptions would be a sound business decision in that case, as the money coming in from CoH2 would help to offset the cost to maintain the server farm, if nothing else.

-Rachel-

Edit: I should also note that the money coming in from the Lifetime Subs to CoH1 would help to offset the CoH2 development costs. And you would still, likely, have players playing CoH1 on a monthly subscription basis, as well. If only due to the minimum system requirements of newer and newer games.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steampunkette View Post
Oh. No. With this I vehemently disagree.

At the launch of CoH2 offering lifetime subscriptions for CoX would be fine. Since most of the development staff would, instead, be working on content for CoH2. Allowing players to keep playing CoH1 (along with any new bits of content added to it) wouldn't be such a terrible idea. And offering both lifetime and monthly subscriptions would be a sound business decision in that case, as the money coming in from CoH2 would help to offset the cost to maintain the server farm, if nothing else.

-Rachel-

Edit: I should also note that the money coming in from the Lifetime Subs to CoH1 would help to offset the CoH2 development costs. And you would still, likely, have players playing CoH1 on a monthly subscription basis, as well. If only due to the minimum system requirements of newer and newer games.
yeah, my "ever" was a little strong. if they do make a CoX2 then sure, at the release of CoX2 they can offer them for a limited time to CoX.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
LMAO! Holy crap man, you have serious neuroses or something. I think it is hilarious you are trying to pull others into it as well to justify this to yourself. "We" means squat... others read my posts and understood them perfectly. If you thought I was saying something else in the post, YOU (not "we") read it incorrectly.
No. It is the resposibility of the poster to make sure his/her posts can be understood without misinterpretation. The OP Power is a perfect example. With this thread he has shown he has the ability to communicate his thoughts clearly. If Power can do it, you can too.


Rachel's right tho, enough threadjacking.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project View Post
If Power can do it, you can too.
I think Power's case is more like a room full of an infinite number of monkeys on typewriters producing the script for Macbeth.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Power... please do a seach for Lifetime subs.

This idea has been shot down multiple times.

For example this thread was started less than 2 weeks ago: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=207886
Yay! I'm famous for making a thread two weeks ago!

And my suggestion was shot down pretty hard when I made that thread too...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilanna View Post
Yay! I'm famous for making a thread two weeks ago!

And my suggestion was shot down pretty hard when I made that thread too...
mostly because it's a horrible idea that's dragged out because Champions Online and HellGate London did it. Nobody stops and thinks for a second about what happened / is happening to those games.

They. Failed.

I'm not even convinced that Lifetime Subscriptions are a good business plan when starting a game up. It is pretty much telling the player base that the developers intend the game to fail within the time-span of how long a Life-time subscription cost would be if you paid monthly. So if you paid $200 for a life-time sub, at $15 per month, the devs intend the game to fail in a little over 13 months.

About the only time a Lifetime Sub makes sense is in the scenario given where a game is being closed out or put out to non-maintenance in favor of a sequel title.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
mostly because it's a horrible idea that's dragged out because Champions Online and HellGate London did it. Nobody stops and thinks for a second about what happened / is happening to those games.

They. Failed.

I'm not even convinced that Lifetime Subscriptions are a good business plan when starting a game up. It is pretty much telling the player base that the developers intend the game to fail within the time-span of how long a Life-time subscription cost would be if you paid monthly. So if you paid $200 for a life-time sub, at $15 per month, the devs intend the game to fail in a little over 13 months.

About the only time a Lifetime Sub makes sense is in the scenario given where a game is being closed out or put out to non-maintenance in favor of a sequel title.
What about Lord of the rings, game seems decently popular. Its a bit of a stretch to say they FAILED and imply it was lifetime subscriptions. Maybe they Failed cause they SUCKED?

Disclaimer:- "I'm not saying Hellgate or CO sucked, I'm just mean to illustrate that there are other more plausible reasons why they failed."

 

Posted

I'd like to claim that Hellgate: London and Champions Online failed/are failing because of Bill Roper

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
About the only time a Lifetime Sub makes sense is in the scenario given where a game is being closed out or put out to non-maintenance in favor of a sequel title.
There is a potential argument for it in Cryptic's case. Their business model appears to involve cranking out MMOs as fast as they possibly can (CO, STO, and they've said there's a third in the works). In that case lifetime subs at launch do make sense. It gives them a burst of capital to help fund the next MMO and if the game is successful enough the warrant continued support the lack of income is probably not the end of the world. Of course this doesn't explain why they continue to offer lifetime subs for STO after launch.

 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
There is a potential argument for it in Cryptic's case. Their business model appears to involve cranking out MMOs as fast as they possibly can (CO, STO, and they've said there's a third in the works). In that case lifetime subs at launch do make sense. It gives them a burst of capital to help fund the next MMO and if the game is successful enough the warrant continued support the lack of income is probably not the end of the world. Of course this doesn't explain why they continue to offer lifetime subs for STO after launch.
There might be a part of the market that wouldn't otherwise be interested in playing without a lifetime sub?
In that case they are attracting a customer they wouldn't have otherwise so those don't count as potentially lost long term income.

Admittedly that doesn't seem like it would happen very often. I can't think of any game I would plop 200 down for initially that I wouldn't be willing to pay a monthly fee for in the first place.

In regards to city of heroes, I would definitely get a lifetime sub, and at the rate I play, they would only start loosing money after 3 or so years, as I tend to activate for only 2 months a year. What I would end up doing probably is end up buying all the booster packs, as now I think im getting such a good deal, I wouldn't mind paying a bit more cash. Maybe thats what these other MMOs are hoping is going to happen.

 

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Originally Posted by WindsOfFate View Post
There might be a part of the market that wouldn't otherwise be interested in playing without a lifetime sub?
In that case they are attracting a customer they wouldn't have otherwise so those don't count as potentially lost long term income.
No, I doubt it would attract players. But for a business model where you're attempting to develop a lot of MMOs then it becomes more important for each MMO to pay itself off quickly.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
mostly because it's a horrible idea that's dragged out because Champions Online and HellGate London did it. Nobody stops and thinks for a second about what happened / is happening to those games.

They. Failed.
I wouldn't actually put Hellgate: London in this race. Yes, it failed, but not necessarily because of lifetime subs. It failed because they tried too much at once, and didn't really define what they were or what they were trying to do. Really simplifying it, feature creep and dev wishlists started it on the road to failure when they couldn't control themselves. The rather fractured community and who received what content didn't help either (nor did the way some of the development and "community" staff treated the playerbase - such as the "Who the **** plays LAN anyway?" blowoff... by the same person, IIRC, who got hauled over to cryptic and did their non-apology apology for trying to farm the forums for subs.)

If they'd decided specifically to be an FPS, they wouldn't have had "elite" vs "non elite" vs "single player/LAN" content, and could have come out on a regular expansion cycle. If they'd decided to be an MMO, they could, again, have worked out an expansion cycle and dropped the single player/LAN stuff (and not had two models, necessarily.) Of course, had they removed *bugs* and worked on *performance,* it would have been nice (I could, back when I had it loaded - no, never subbed - go into a station and be there for several minutes before the NPCs graphics ever showed up. And I could not *stand* the dialog or voice acting, for one.)

They had no clue what they wanted to be, and that doomed them.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Their business model appears to involve cranking out MMOs as fast as they possibly can (CO, STO, and they've said there's a third in the works).
IIRC that "third in the works" is the same one that's supposed to be a unique IP, and has been nothing since concept art since.... well, at least since I started playing (around the same time as the reg date.) That one is strictly in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category (see also "Duke Nukem Forever.")

 

Posted

What so many of those reeeeaaaaally hoping for lifetime subscriptions aren't seeing is this: they are basically telling the game honchos they'd love to play the game a very long, extended time, but for less money. The honchos can then look over numbers and see that yes, they have literally extracted thousands of dollars out of longtime subscribers each, thousands of times over. You have just told them you'd be interested in sticking around a while.

Why are they going to settle for a couple hundred when they can get so much more, again?

It's funny to say, but the needs of the company and the desires of the players are antagonistic to a large degree. Players would love to pay less over time. (This is what a lifetime subscription is about. ) The game company would like them to pay more. *cough*boosterpacks*cough* Players want instant 50's, or something as reward. The company wants them to take the time/investment to start from scratch. Players want characters to be able to change powersets. The company would rather they spend all that time starting anew.

Basically, the joining point is that moth the company and the players want the players in the game. After that, while the players are often trying to get stuff faster and more easily, and pay less money, the company is trying to slow the player down, lengthening stay and find new ways to get the player to spend more.

Anywise, the company already did something like this; the had a special offer where if you paid a larger amount for a year, they give a discount. That's as far as it went. Why? Next year they want pay again.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
I wouldn't actually put Hellgate: London in this race. Yes, it failed, but not necessarily because of lifetime subs. It failed because they tried too much at once, and didn't really define what they were or what they were trying to do. Really simplifying it, feature creep and dev wishlists started it on the road to failure when they couldn't control themselves. The rather fractured community and who received what content didn't help either (nor did the way some of the development and "community" staff treated the playerbase - such as the "Who the **** plays LAN anyway?" blowoff... by the same person, IIRC, who got hauled over to cryptic and did their non-apology apology for trying to farm the forums for subs.)

If they'd decided specifically to be an FPS, they wouldn't have had "elite" vs "non elite" vs "single player/LAN" content, and could have come out on a regular expansion cycle. If they'd decided to be an MMO, they could, again, have worked out an expansion cycle and dropped the single player/LAN stuff (and not had two models, necessarily.) Of course, had they removed *bugs* and worked on *performance,* it would have been nice (I could, back when I had it loaded - no, never subbed - go into a station and be there for several minutes before the NPCs graphics ever showed up. And I could not *stand* the dialog or voice acting, for one.)

They had no clue what they wanted to be, and that doomed them.
Okay. Fair enough. Lack of direction was what killed Tabula Rasa as well.

That being said... I don't think I made the analogy / link quite clear. Give me a moment to work it out and try to say what I said the first time, but not as clear as I thought the implication was.

***

Okay. Here goes. What I meant to imply isn't how the statement was apparently read.

Quote:
mostly because it's a horrible idea that's dragged out because Champions Online and HellGate London did it. Nobody stops and thinks for a second about what happened / is happening to those games.

They. Failed.
I'm not laying the failing of these games solely on lifetime subscriptions, although that seems to be the impression that was taken from this quote. I'm laying the blame on faulty management. Lifetime subscriptions are symptoms of the management's inability to manage a game. I don't think Bill Roper or his lieutenants quite worked their way around what their marketing group was saying with lifetime subscriptions when they introduced those with Hellgate. When Lifetime subs were announced for Champions Online, it was a flash back to the problems with Hellgate London. Many of the same marketing tricks and promotions that Bill Roper ran with Hellgate were repeated with Champions Online, and met with pretty much the same lack of success.

When I see players, now, bringing up I want lifetime subscriptions... I don't get the feeling they accurately have a picture of how the companies that made these lifetime subscriptions popular are actually running. Flagship Studios shot itself in the foot, pulled out a howitzer, and then shot the ground at their feet. Between Cryptic Studio's plan to let CoH whither and die in the face of Marvel Universe Online, the loss of the Marvel License, the loss of a profitable game, the pickup of the dirt cheap Champions License, the near immediate abandonment of Champions Online at launch in favor of another game, and the talk of yet a third MMO in development, and Cryptic Studios is up for the Most Incompetent Senior Management award. Infogrames... well... just take a look at their wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infogra...ertainment,_SA If there is a company that defines Situation Normal, All ****** Up, it's Infogrames. For all their acquisitions you'd think they'd be able to land some success, but Infogrames makes John Romero's Ion Storm look like a well run, financially efficient, on-time provider of Triple A Class games. All insult intended, it takes effort to make the studio behind Daikatana look good.

I'm sure Infogrames does not understand the MMO market, and I'm not entirely sure anybody who was left at Cryptic after the NCSoft buyout understands the MMO market. The failure of Hellgate London, and the current failing of Champions Online are largely due to management that just doesn't have a ruddy clue.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Lack of direction was what killed Tabula Rasa as well.
No, starting over from scratch 3 or 4 times is what killed Tabula Rasa. =/

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
Okay. Here goes. What I meant to imply isn't how the statement was apparently read.



I'm not laying the failing of these games solely on lifetime subscriptions, although that seems to be the impression that was taken from this quote. I'm laying the blame on faulty management. Lifetime subscriptions are symptoms of the management's inability to manage a game
Oh, no, I got what you were saying, I just wanted to separate Hellgate and ChO a bit as far as "why this idea gets dragged out." I'd say more people who mention it are looking at COn (heh) and saying "Do that here!" than ever are thinking of hellgate.

And yeah, I'd lay blame for both on (mis)management.

 

Posted

Lots of assumptions in this thread on both sides.

All payment models have their benefits and drawbacks. Lifetime subs mean less revenue over the longer term, but they can mean more revenue compared to a sub model (e.g. the person who cancels subs at six months, for instance). It also means that a proportion of players are 'locked in' to the game and can be encouraged to spend money elsewhere (expansions, microtrans, etc). The proportion of lifers within the overall player base is also important - if it is 90%, you've got to get them spending in other ways; if it is only 10%, you might not have to worry about them as much.

Don't quite see where the idea that it would be a good thing for CoH/V to offer a lifetime sub if they were working on CoH 2 comes from - the first sign that CoH 2 is in the works is a pretty strong indication to me that CoH/V is going to be put on the backburner. I'm not really going to spend lifetime sub money on a game that isn't going to see continued and substantive content releases moving forward.

Also, the assumption is that because CoH/V has proven itself profitable in the past that NCsoft will take that into account moving forward. That's probably not a big factor since that money has already been spent. CoH/V has a declining player base and didn't hit its revenue target for 2009; offering lifetime subs with the launch of GoRo could be seen as a sign that NCsoft / Paragon Studios has faith that CoH/V is going to be a going concern for at least another 2 - 3 years (or yes, be a grab for cash for CoH 2).

That said, it's probably a moot point. NCsoft is yet to offer lifetime subs to any of its titles afaik so the management is likely not favourable to such offers; also I'm 90% sure that Paragon Studios is already working on its next MMO and GoRo might indeed be the last big release for the title.