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How about a puppy ? Can I have a puppy ? please please pleeeeeeeassssee.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You're screaming "I WANT A PONY!"
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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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My fun is NOT more important than yours. I agree with that point completely, and won't debate you on it.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Fun IS subjective. But if someone wants to play a style where they play 1, one, toon for years and wants to wait for pieces they get in missions or place bids over years to build a toon then why can't i play a style where i like to make several toons at once and level them and IO them as fast as i want? Why is YOUR fun more important than mine? See, subjective is the key term here. Nothing makes the way YOU want to play more important than the way I want to play. My 15$ holds the same current value as your 15$.
That's why we need more drops, so that EVERYONE has a place where they can enjoy what they like to do as long as it's not exploiting or cheating. |
That said, I suspect you'll find that ALMOST every MMO on the market is geared more towards the patient, long term crowd. People who want to run on that treadmill for months before hitting their maximum level of power, rather than people who only want to put in a few days of jogging. I'm guessing that almost no MMO caters to people who want to level up and max out a couple of toons per week, as it sounds like you want. I strongly suspect that most people would quickly lose interest in an MMO that was that easy. There's nothing WRONG with wanting an MMO that easy; it just doesn't tend to be what most people playing these games want, and they're catering to the majority.
Similarly, if what makes marketeers (a minority) happy conflicts with what would make the main player base (the majority) happy, the marketeers are just going to have to suck it up and deal with changes
However, there's a BIG difference between what would make the main player base HAPPY, and implementing ill-informed market suggestions from people who claim to represent the main player base. Admitting that there is inflation on top end goods and that probably the majority would be happier without this inflation is NOT the same thing as admitting that every half-baked idea for fixing it should be implemented. MOST ideas that are proposed are BAD ideas that for the sake of the main player base should not be implemented, even if I agree there is a problem.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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What exactly makes you different from anyone else who's got the choice of being stuck waiting or paying a higher price to get it sooner? |
Originally Posted by eryq2
Tell that to the people actually wanting the pieces and having to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait........ for bids to actually fill. AND to fill at "their" reasonable price. OH, wait, what's reasonable again? It's whatever they ARE MADE to HAVE to pay in order to even get the damned pieces from WW, that may go months without even filling. You're right. It's not a store, therefore we are made to buy the "luxuries" from the people that can play the game for 5 hours a day and decide what "reasonable" is.
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| On a side note, i just crafted 5 Posi's, Oblits, and Decimations at level 35 from a toon that i had to stop in order to get those recipes. Checked WW. Guess what? 0 for sell. Hm. I'd never have thought. I just threw them in a bin for future use instead of placing on the market for someone that can actually use them now. Don't seem quite right, does it? |
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| I'm not trying to dictate how you play, but i'm already being made to play your way if i choose to take part in what i like to do and IO toons. |
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| More recipes for sale would not kill the game. |
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| I think the game was fine before WW was intro'd. |
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| therefore, it'd be fine with people actually having more recipes to IO more toons. To say it wouldn't, well, sir, you can't prove that Hyper. |
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NO!|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
How about a puppy ? Can I have a puppy ? please please pleeeeeeeassssee.
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Now start crying!
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Vs|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Yet you keep harping on it as below.
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| So far you have made misstatements, claiming that they were part of some clever plan of yours, argued via nonsensical picture, and made statements that you can't backup in response to challenge. |
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| 'nuff said. |
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You are paying for ACCESS to the game. Nobody is guaranteeing you "fun". Since everyone's idea of "fun" is different. If that's really too much to handle, another venue might make for a more enjoyable passtime for you. Like a single player console game. |
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| Is a Ferrari more FUN to drive there? Maybe! |
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| As I've said, I comprehend what you're talking about. It simply has zero bearing on the points I'm making. I'm talking mathematics and market theory. You're screaming "I WANT A PONY!" |
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Originally Posted by Thunderforce
Take common salvage. I figure five [1] times as much common salvage drops as anyone actually uses for crafting stuff. It'd be nice if we could just make a big pile of it on top of Posi's pointy little head [2] and take it when we wanted some, rather than occasionally waiting a day for a Circuit Board because some American thinks they're George Soros.
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nobody who knows what they're doing messes with common salvage except as a leaning tool- even at its least available and most expensive it's not worth wasting a slot on.
The shortage of common salvage is mainly the fault of MA. Players generating tickets aren't wasting them on commons for the same reasons marketeers aren't clogging their slots with commons.
Happily, tickets giveth as readily as they taketh away.
Don't want to get "gouged" on common salvage? Keep a small stack of tickets in your pocket for a rainy day. If you balk at paying 20k or whatever for some low supply common, roll your own at the MA desk. As a bonus, the extra salvage you generate will probably sell for a tidy profit
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Please keep posting... Your nerdrage is so entertaining.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Tell that to the people actually wanting the pieces and having to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait........ for bids to actually fill. AND to fill at "their" reasonable price. OH, wait, what's reasonable again? It's whatever they ARE MADE to HAVE to pay in order to even get the damned pieces from WW, that may go months without even filling. You're right. It's not a store, therefore we are made to buy the "luxuries" from the people that can play the game for 5 hours a day and decide what "reasonable" is.
On a side note, i just crafted 5 Posi's, Oblits, and Decimations at level 35 from a toon that i had to stop in order to get those recipes. Checked WW. Guess what? 0 for sell. Hm. I'd never have thought. I just threw them in a bin for future use instead of placing on the market for someone that can actually use them now. Don't seem quite right, does it? I'm not trying to dictate how you play, but i'm already being made to play your way if i choose to take part in what i like to do and IO toons. More recipes for sale would not kill the game. I think the game was fine before WW was intro'd. therefore, it'd be fine with people actually having more recipes to IO more toons. To say it wouldn't, well, sir, you can't prove that Hyper. |
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The thought that someone is MAKING anybody pay for the sort of outrageous luxury goods we're discussing here is purely ridiculous.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Tell that to the people actually wanting the pieces and having to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait........ for bids to actually fill. AND to fill at "their" reasonable price. OH, wait, what's reasonable again? It's whatever they ARE MADE to HAVE to pay in order to even get the damned pieces from WW, that may go months without even filling.
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If you want a Ferrarri, it's going to cost you. If you want a certain limited edition Ferrari that comes up for sale very infrequently, and that a lot of other people also want, that's going to cost you a lot more and may take a long time.
Your consistently inane ranting about the very nature of the market has me picturing a dirty college radical from the 70's wearing a Mao cap and a Che tee shirt.
The Revolution failed, dude.
Get with the times.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Bull. You wouldn't be arguing so hard if it weren't personal.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
My personal fun isn't the issue.
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| What repeatedly happens is that people rightly or wrongly perceive the market as being an impediment. |
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| you have as yet to use either |
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Unfortunately they are still manufacturing such dirty college radicals nowadays too. Some are, unfortunately, the spawn of the former. So the stupidity has been getting preached to them from birth.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Your consistently inane ranting about the very nature of the market has me picturing a dirty college radical from the 70's wearing a Mao cap and a Che tee shirt.
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Just because the marketeers are happy, don't mean everyone is either. Most of the player base don't even post in here so to get a fair shake is pretty obviously not going to happen. I'm ok with that and with the immature name calling. Keep it up. It just shows how poorly you were raised and how you deal with other people not agreeing with you. So sad, really. I'll pray for you. Alot.
If it weren't for us farmers, how do you think WW would even function? If you had to build your toons on your drops, it'd take 10 years. How patient you think you'd be then?
It's scary for you to think about a change to the market system and making YOU play a certain way but when people have to deal with the way WW functions now that don't like it, that's ok with you. All you can say is don't IO toons or don't use WW. Hypocrits.
I don't know how much more to say a number, but more drops would be better for anyone trying to IO toons. The only people it would hurt are the flippers, and manipulators. I do know when i run a farm solo and only get 3 recipes other than commons, that seems low considering all the mobs i run thru. You think too many would hurt the game, but so does too little. It discourages alot of people from even messing with it. That hurts the system too.
Limited Editions don't cost THAT much more, either, Nevergoat. I have a limited edition yamaha r1. It cost me $1500. more than the original. Not 100mil over. Fail.
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The first sentence is more or less correct. The second sentence is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
A flipper lowers the availability low priced goods and raises the supply of higher priced goods. Their action raises prices.
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A flipper decreases availability of low-priced goods, which tends to drive those prices up. We both agree on that. Next, the flipper increases the availability of higher priced goods - which DRIVES THE PRICES DOWN. Surely you can understand that.
If an item sells for between 1 million and 2 million influence, the flipper causes that 1 million figure to go UP and that 2 million figure to go DOWN.
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The Mentor Project
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That would make them the first generation since Euripides to trust and obey their parents all the way through the teens, wouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Unfortunately they are still manufacturing such dirty college radicals nowadays too. Some are, unfortunately, the spawn of the former. So the stupidity has been getting preached to them from birth.
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Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Without farmers, the supply would be lower and the prices would probably be higher. Of course there would be less inf floating around, so inflation might be lower, but farmers who don't farm for inf at the expense of tickets in the AE at least keep the average ratio of inf to drops consistent... for pool A stuff. Farmers who farm in the AE, whether they spend tickets before capping out or not, increase the ratio of inf to purples and raise prices, so cutting them out reduces that ratio and possibly lowers prices.| If it weren't for us farmers, how do you think WW would even function? If you had to build your toons on your drops, it'd take 10 years. How patient you think you'd be then? |
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| It's scary for you to think about a change to the market system and making YOU play a certain way but when people have to deal with the way WW functions now that don't like it, that's ok with you. All you can say is don't IO toons or don't use WW. Hypocrits. |
Taking all the farmers out of the system would do nothing to marketeers. They ride the ebb and flow of supply and demand, and they will always be in the upper echelons of the wealthy and thus the better equipped. If the market is moving a lot of items for cheap or a few items for piles of money, marketeers don't really care, because in either case the marketeers make what they need to buy what they want.
All marketeers want is a market that functions to move goods among the players efficiently where a smart or patient player can find bargains. Enterprising people who find bargains can use them to earn a profit, more or less like in the real world (see pawn shops and antique stores).
Ideas like increasing the info in the sales history would probably reduce margins for flippers because it would serve to reduce price volatility. Some marketeers may oppose that sort of thing. I don't actually marketeer per se, so I don't actually care much one way or the other. It would also probably serve to reduce the ability to find bargains for "regular" players too, though.
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| I don't know how much more to say a number, but more drops would be better for anyone trying to IO toons. The only people it would hurt are the flippers, and manipulators. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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lol @ comparing real-world money to in-game currency, let alone not even giving a sense of scale.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Limited Editions don't cost THAT much more, either, Nevergoat. I have a limited edition yamaha r1. It cost me $1500. more than the original. Not 100mil over. Fail.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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You are not "everyone". So please don't presume to speak for them. All you're doing is impression your own personal bias on them.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Just because the marketeers are happy, don't mean everyone is either.
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| Most of the player base don't even post in here so to get a fair shake is pretty obviously not going to happen. |
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| It's scary for you to think about a change to the market system and making YOU play a certain way but when people have to deal with the way WW functions now that don't like it, that's ok with you. All you can say is don't IO toons or don't use WW. Hypocrits. |
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| I don't know how much more to say a number, but more drops would be better for anyone trying to IO toons. |
A larger change, one that would be noticeable, would likely destroy any challenge in the PVE game whatsoever.
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| The only people it would hurt are the flippers, and manipulators. |
Sure, the PVPers can play like that happily. But you're less than 1% of the population. What about all the people who have no desire to PVP? The term you're looking for at that point is BOREDOM.
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| I do know when i run a farm solo and only get 3 recipes other than commons, that seems low considering all the mobs i run thru. |
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| You think too many would hurt the game, but so does too little. It discourages alot of people from even messing with it. That hurts the system too. |
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I guess.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
That would make them the first generation since Euripides to trust and obey their parents all the way through the teens, wouldn't it?
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Unfortunately I've met such progeny. And I'm certain it's not a Good Thing.
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Lets take your example that item has QTY X items that enter the market at a price of around 1 million. The flipper removes a percentage of X and turns them into items that are now priced around 2 million.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
The first sentence is more or less correct. The second sentence is wrong.
A flipper decreases availability of low-priced goods, which tends to drive those prices up. We both agree on that. Next, the flipper increases the availability of higher priced goods - which DRIVES THE PRICES DOWN. Surely you can understand that. If an item sells for between 1 million and 2 million influence, the flipper causes that 1 million figure to go UP and that 2 million figure to go DOWN. |
If the hypothetical end user (defined as someone who is going to remove supply from the market and not return the exact same item to the market) wants to buy the item, the pool of items at the low price is whatever is left from the flippers. They can either try to monitor the price to detect the flippers price points, or just pay a much higher price.
The flipper has raised the price, and or wasted the buyers time.
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The bolded part is critical, and at the heart of the position that anyone who can't wait some period of time is impatient, and that if they come here and complain about paying a lot without any effort to wait then they are being lazy and feeling overly entitled.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The flipper has raised the price, and or wasted the buyers time.
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A flipper does not raise the price unless the buyer insists on paying the flipper by buying right then. Note that there is some chance that a "buy it nao" player may end up paying less for a given item than they would have otherwise since flippers usually reduce price volatility and draw down the top-end price. However, this isn't guaranteed, and in any case depends heavily on the bidding behavior of the "buy it nao-er"
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Arguing hard ?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Bull. You wouldn't be arguing so hard if it weren't personal.
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It is kind of sad though, that you think no one would argue for something if it wasn't a direct personal issue of theirs
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| And I can't do anything for those people other than try to educate them as to why the market is the way it is. If they don't want to hear it and insist that things should be the way THEY want them to be. Well, I'll just sit back and and have a nice deep belly laugh at their expense. |
You have people that come here to play a fantasy/superhero game. They get here and find the bottleneck to playing the game is a poorly implemented trading game that sits on top of it.
Then as a cherry on the cake you have people who enjoy the market game, and actually require people to come into and do badly at it, boldly asserting that its the only way to do things.
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| That's because you aren't paying attention. I recommend Remedial Rhetoric 101. That and maybe some meds to calm you down. |
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Expectation is the key here. If you went to a restaurant and weren't served in a timely fashion, I doubt you would react well to the argument you were acting overly entitled. And before we go to the argument that the market is not a restaurant true but this is not advertised as a market game but a superhero game. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The bolded part is critical, and at the heart of the position that anyone who can't wait some period of time is impatient, and that if they come here and complain about paying a lot without any effort to wait then they are being lazy and feeling overly entitled.
A flipper does not raise the price unless the buyer insists on paying the flipper by buying right then. Note that there is some chance that a "buy it nao" player may end up paying less for a given item than they would have otherwise since flippers usually reduce price volatility and draw down the top-end price. However, this isn't guaranteed, and in any case depends heavily on the bidding behavior of the "buy it nao-er" |
Back to the flipper, in general they try to hit the maximum price point where they can achieve total sell through in their time horizon. With AE tickets an option its really hard to argue that they reduce volatility on the upside anymore ( N.B. I am not saying this was ever a valid argument )
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But this comes down to grousing about the nature of the game, and not the behavior of its players. This is a superhero game with loot that you can buy from other players in a market.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Expectation is the key here. If you went to a restaurant and weren't served in a timely fashion, I doubt you would react well to the argument you were acting overly entitled. And before we go to the argument that the market is not a restaurant true but this is not advertised as a market game but a superhero game.
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Saying it's a "superhero game," full stop, leaves too many open ended expectations. It's a superhero game, an MMO, a game with classes and not point systems ... it has a very specific nature and other things attached to it beyond its superhero genre. People bring expectations from all over the place, and some of them are going to be wrong. Expecting to come to this restaurant and have no wait for food might be an explainable, but it's not valid.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Maybe everyone just has different definitions of "raises the price".
Marketeers think of this as "inflation" in the sense of the equilibrium price or "raising the price at which supply and demand for the item equalizes". Flippers don't cause inflation in this sense.
Someone else might think of this as "it was for sale for 1 million, and now it's for sale for 2 million, so they raised the price." TRUE!
Someone else might think of this as "Without the flipper, I could put in a paitent bid for 800 thousand and wait, and it would usually fill within a few days. Now those bids no longer fill. Now I have to bid over a million, even if I'm being a paitent bidder. The flipper raised the price I pay." TRUE!
Someone else might think of this as "I just bid higher than the last five, and I buy on weekends when prices are highest. I used to pay 5 million, and still sometimes had to wait because there were none available. But now that there's a flipper working this niche, I'm getting it for about 3 million, and I never have to wait. The flipper lowered the price I pay and made it easier for me to get what I want NAO." TRUE!
And this is where my confusion comes in. Aren't most of the people complaining about flippers in the buy it nao crowd? Aren't they the ones most directly benefiting from the flippers?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Don't forget that a significant fraction of these complaints, including that referenced by the OP blame marketeers/flippers for long-term price increases, like how purples now cost 5-10x as much as they did around I12. That's a completely different bag altogether, and doesn't fit into any of the (completely reasonable) viewpoints you enumerated.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Game = fun
Paying for game = expected to yield fun.
If that's really too much to handle, another venue might make for a more enjoyable passtime for you. Like a single player console game.
I'll reiterate it another way.
You can drive a Ferrari to a vacation destination.
You can drive a Yugo to a vacation destination.
Both get you there. Thus, is a Ferrari NECESSARY to get you there?
No.
Is a Ferrari more FUN to drive there? Maybe!
But I'm not arguing the last point because it's a value decision.
I never was.
The sooner you actually realize this, the better.
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