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If people don't buy it at the new, high price, the recipes sit unsold and the manipulators take a bath de-listing and losing their list fee, then re-listing lower. And that happens; I've been caught overpricing stuff several times (I'm not much of a marketeer, actually).|
Originally Posted by eryq2
If someone with a ton of inf pays an astronomical amout for an IO, that's cool. But when that price gets seen, then EVERYONE starts listing at that price in hopes of getting paid that amount, there's the inflation. It becomes the norm.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
Why else can someone not place a "reasonable" bid and get it?
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Here's how: The market exists mostly to determine what a "reasonable bid" is. We ask everyone what they're willing to pay -- for real, not what they'd assert in a forum argument -- and by God, we find out.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
If people don't buy it at the new, high price, the recipes sit unsold and the manipulators take a bath de-listing and losing their list fee, then re-listing lower. And that happens; I've been caught overpricing stuff several times (I'm not much of a marketeer, actually).
What's "reasonable?" Some players want it more; some players have more money. How can we determine what's "reasonable" in a world where supply is limited and random (which is the world the Devs seem committed to; we'll never be able to buy set IOs at a store for a fioxed price). Here's how: The market exists mostly to determine what a "reasonable bid" is. We ask everyone what they're willing to pay -- for real, not what they'd assert in a forum argument -- and by God, we find out. |
My fix to determine "reasonable" would to have blind bids. No last 5 seen. If you think it's worth 10mil, list it and when someone pays it you'll get it. If you think it's worth 100mil, list it. To show bids does nothing to help anything.
As far as the middle level stuff, the rolls should drop in the level rolled, not a 50 just because you're 50. (or 30, 40 if it only goes that high) To have people gimp thier toons to 35 for best rolls vs. inf paid to get it is stupid, imo. Notice i said, IMO.
if you suddenly took away the last 5 bids, what you would have is people keeping lists out of game for prices sold and then you'd see alot more of the kind of people you seem to hate most : price gougers. Why ? because now no one knows what anything is worth and they have no choice but to keep bidding til they get it.
How is that different from now? With last 5 sales shown, people have a ball park of where an item might sell at and can know what a high or low bid is. Now sellers and buyers know what other items have sold for and they can sell/bid lower than that if they choose. Without the last 5 sold, it's 100% a guessing game for buyers and a "lets work together to set prices" game for sellers.
Things would be so much worse off if this got implemented.
Of course a better option for people like you is to implement a magic IO elf that dispenses any IO for 1 inf. This way you never have to work for anything at all.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Originally Posted by Lohenien
if you suddenly took away the last 5 bids, what you would have is people keeping lists out of game for prices sold and then you'd see alot more of the kind of people you seem to hate most : price gougers. Why ? because now no one knows what anything is worth and they have no choice but to keep bidding til they get it.
How is that different from now? With last 5 sales shown, people have a ball park of where an item might sell at and can know what a high or low bid is. Now sellers and buyers know what other items have sold for and they can sell/bid lower than that if they choose. Without the last 5 sold, it's 100% a guessing game for buyers and a "lets work together to set prices" game for sellers. Things would be so much worse off if this got implemented. Of course a better option for people like you is to implement a magic IO elf that dispenses any IO for 1 inf. This way you never have to work for anything at all. |
You don't know me or what you're talking about. How many hours of game do you log a week? I log around 50 on average. Not work for anything? 90% of my hours are farming and pl'ing others in AE. I don't want it for 1 inf, i just hate to see people take advantage of the system due to poor drop rates. When there's only 3 recipes or 0 for sale on ANY item is ridiculous on a game that's based on making alts and playing them. When people have 3 pages per server full of alts and no way to slot them makes the system broken, imo.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
You don't know me or what you're talking about. How many hours of game do you log a week? I log around 50 on average. Not work for anything? 90% of my hours are farming and pl'ing others in AE. I don't want it for 1 inf, i just hate to see people take advantage of the system due to poor drop rates. When there's only 3 recipes or 0 for sale on ANY item is ridiculous on a game that's based on making alts and playing them. When people have 3 pages per server full of alts and no way to slot them makes the system broken, imo.
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You know....this is one of those times when you're completely right and wrong at the same time.
Theres always ways to slot out an alt. Its called SOs or even generic IOs. Really, it was good for a long long time...its still good now....these IO sets you decry as being unavailable are a luxury. Once you perceive them as such its really easy to wrap your head around the prices.
As to the part you are correct about, the scarcity of items at levels other than 50 is ridiculous. You can buy just about anything (even red-side) at level 50 and be okay...Ive had a wide level range of bids out for the pool c version of one of the accurate to hit debuff sets (the specific escapes me) and havent hit one in the mid 30s in near three weeks. I finally gave up and ran enough Ouro arcs to purchase it direct. What a waste of merits. But at least I had that option.
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Originally Posted by eryq2
I agree but it doesn't help when people try to manipulate the prices of the market though. Buying low, selling high is one thing if you can get it low then sell it for whatever someone pays is totally different than the people who intentionally try to make it hard on others to make a quick buck. Someone said they were trying to do it to afford higher priced recipes. Don't they realize they're having to do what someone done? Like i said, it's a circle. Makes sense in a willy wonka world i guess.
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Actually there is no difference between one person buying everything they can low and listing high to manipulate prices and lots of people buying a little low and listing high. If its profitable you have to expect that it will be maximized.
The problem with the market in the context of the game is, its not a very interesting mini game. Bragging about doing well at it, is sort of like a harp seal clubber claiming to be a great white hunter, just falls flat. Its much more impressive to do well at something like this
http://vse.marketwatch.com/Game/Homepage.aspx
even though there are strategies that are trivial that will allow you to do astoundingly well.
I can easily see why people don't like the market in this game, calling them market haters as some do here is just a rather poor attempt to trivialize their legitimate concerns. Playing as a collective corporate entity just to maximize profit doesn't jibe well with their concept of their characters. You don't see wonder woman shopping in walmart.
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I typically sell crafted enhancements rather than recipes. This is because other characters typically craft their drops and share them through a SG base, and what's left over gets sold. It also allows me to accumulate inf on a single character, which puts higher priced things within reach than would be the case were the inf scattered over a variety of characters.
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Originally Posted by Donna_
Recently I was thinking, if like me everyone does this.. who on earth is crafting all these enchancements, and why !
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
I'm always interested in how such discussions inevitably degenerate into accusations of "greed". It never made sense to me how wanting to increase your income is seen as "greed", but wanting to pay less for the same thing isn't, even though they're both a desire to achieve the same result, i.e. you own more stuff.
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How the heck does lack of information help anyone? That REALLY puts the power in the hands of an ebil marketeer, who will know from tracking their niche what things will sell for, and takes it away from the casual buyer, who will have no idea what to bid. |
Originally Posted by eryq2
My fix to determine "reasonable" would to have blind bids. No last 5 seen. If you think it's worth 10mil, list it and when someone pays it you'll get it. If you think it's worth 100mil, list it. To show bids does nothing to help anything.
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What you want is to have a listing of last 10, or last 15 sold. That would make it harder for someone to manipulate the market as you seem to believe they do (I don't think its as easy to make money that way as you think, but either way it helps prevent manipulation).
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It's very simple.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I'm always interested in how such discussions inevitably degenerate into accusations of "greed". It never made sense to me how wanting to increase your income is seen as "greed", but wanting to pay less for the same thing isn't, even though they're both a desire to achieve the same result, i.e. you own more stuff.
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Anything you do that affects the market, you're doing it because you're a greedy pig. When I can't get what I want, at the prices I want, it's because 1) the market is broken, 2) greedy pigs are ruining the market, 3) both 1 and 2.
It's like George Carlin said: "Anyone driving slower than you is an idiot and anyone driving faster than you is a maniac."
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I think if the bids aren't shown, then the "value" of something is placed solely on the bidder. Not the seller. You place bids on what you think it's worth, they sell at what they think it's worth. Not, hm, that person paid that so i'll list mine at that, too. History has shown us that this happens, hence the increase in everything. That's how it goes now. Show me a case where someone seen something sell and the next time they go to sell the same piece, it gets listed at the new higher amount. |
Originally Posted by Scientist
How the heck does lack of information help anyone? That REALLY puts the power in the hands of an ebil marketeer, who will know from tracking their niche what things will sell for, and takes it away from the casual buyer, who will have no idea what to bid.
What you want is to have a listing of last 10, or last 15 sold. That would make it harder for someone to manipulate the market as you seem to believe they do (I don't think its as easy to make money that way as you think, but either way it helps prevent manipulation). |
See, noone here will agree because it may help lower the prices and all they care about is all they can get. 100 bil is worth no more than 100 mil if the prices continue to rise and it takes more and more to IO a toon.
I'm sorry but you are blatantly wrong eryq2. When people see an item listed for X amount - they will list lower than X if, and only if, the item has a reasonable supply. Things that are not pool c drops, purples or pvp IOs fall into this category (IE the majority of all IOs).
Pool C drops ( gold rolls / merit random rolls) are a middle ground of sorts. The supply is high enough on these that people will list lower than X amount pretty often because they have to compete for sales.
Purples and pvp IOs are so rare that people do no have to worry much about competing for sales. In this category, people will behave how you assume that EVERYONE behaves - they will list at X amount or sometimes higher. This is acceptable because due to low supply the seller controls the price to a higher degree than the buyer.
When you have more than one or two people selling an item, the price will come down compared to the high value and come up compared to the low value. This is called the equilibrium value.
If you take away the sale history, now the buyers have no choice at all but to try to buy at random prices and hope to get an item. Sellers can now behave in the way you assume they do, because now no one knows what anything is worth and there for buyers must keep bidding until they get a sale. A buyer has no idea if 2 million for a purple IO is reasonable or not.
Under the current system, a buyer can look and say 'oh this normally costs X, but I will decide to bid less than X and hope to get it for less within some amount of time that is acceptable to me.'
Also you have sellers that see an item sells for X. If it costs X / 3 to make the item, a trendy seller can now list it lower than X because it cost him only X / 3. Instead of trying to get 3x the cost , the seller can go for 2x the cost. This seller will get more sales than the other sellers listing close to 3x.
In order for a seller to be greedy with an item that has many people selling it - they need to offer it at less NOT more than the going rate.
The fact that you refuse to understand that concept shows that are unwilling to accept that not every single person on the planet behaves exactly how you assume they do.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Heck yeah...take away the sales history. Ill make bajillions. If you think its easy to capitalize on the impatient now, make that mistake and the impatient will be throwing their money at me like old chicks panties at a Tom Jones concert. |
Originally Posted by eryq2
I think if the bids aren't shown, then the "value" of something is placed solely on the bidder. Not the seller. You place bids on what you think it's worth, they sell at what they think it's worth. Not, hm, that person paid that so i'll list mine at that, too. History has shown us that this happens, hence the increase in everything. That's how it goes now. Show me a case where someone seen something sell and the next time they go to sell the same piece, it gets listed at the new higher amount.
See, noone here will agree because it may help lower the prices and all they care about is all they can get. 100 bil is worth no more than 100 mil if the prices continue to rise and it takes more and more to IO a toon. |
The bidder sets the price now, I dont know how hard this is to grasp. I frequently list significantly below the last 5 and am suprised when someone bids less than the last 5. I am not strongarming someone to be impatient. Im not strongarming someone to not bid creep.
Well, if everyone lists the item lower than the last 5, then how is the prices steadily going up and not down? When i do get ready to IO a toon, i try to bid creep. You know what happens? I may get it for 1 or 2 mil less than the last 5. That's hardly a "deal" when it's 20mil or more from the last time i IO'd a toon.( i prolly do 1 a month) So, i see not how if everyone lists it lower the prices keep going up. Maybe my up and down cursor is screwed up.
If the last 5 aren't shown it'll force everyone to bid creep and not just throw up the last sale number. You won't be able to manipulate what you have no idea if it'll sale because you've listed it too high or higher than people are willing to go. The beauty about it is that's where the "vaue" comes in to play, imo. What's worth 2 mil to 1 person may be worth 200k to someone else. Nothing's wrong with random prices because recipes aren't worth the same to everyone but everyone has to pay the same thing. When's the last time you seen an Oblit or Kinetic Combat or Numina sell for less than 1 mil or 5 mil? I haven't looked lately but the last ones i sold were 20-50mil. I remember paying hundreds of thousands for them but i guess with people selling less than the last 5 shown, that less has got us to 50mil.
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People who don't understand how to shop cleverly make stupid mistakes. Like people who don't know how to use plural state-of-being-verbs.| how is the prices steadily going up and not down? |
Until you can provide proof that the numbers are universally migrating upwards and that it's legitimately driving people away, eryq, all you're doing is what you've ever done, which is complaining about a problem you imagine because it makes you feel good.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
People who don't understand how to shop cleverly make stupid mistakes. Like people who don't know how to use plural state-of-being-verbs.
Until you can provide proof that the numbers are universally migrating upwards and that it's legitimately driving people away, eryq, all you're doing is what you've ever done, which is complaining about a problem you imagine because it makes you feel good. |
Wow, really? Well orange salvage went to 2mil after AE from a couple hundred thousand AND hasn't really came down. (even with EVERYONE listing it lower to sell it) Hm, purples went from 30mil to over 200 and up to 400mil. Crafted and/or uncrafted. (cept for the sleep ones or confuse) And every other set that people like... Numina, Touch of Death, Oblits, Kin Com, Imperv Armors, Positrons Blast. Heck, anything with good bonus %'s. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to see the old prices and all you see is the manipulated market prices.
Imagine? Yea, that's what i do when people come in here trying to post a way to manipulate the market by buying everything to relist higher. But yea, it's my imagination. SO, think it isn't happening all you want and the next time i sell one purple for the new 300mil i'll keep in mind how you could've got it alot lower.
If you really wanted "price gouging" to be diminished you'd be campaigning for more past sales info, not less.
If someone could see a more complete history of the sales of an item they'd be able to make more educated bids. Something could sell for 25m in the mornings but for 50m on evenings/weekends. Assuming it sells with any kind of regularity (like salvage) anyone with little marketing experience trying to buy one in the evening would think 50m is the normal going rate.
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eryq2,
I know people that play this game for less than 10 hours a week that have billions of influence and IO all of their characters very well, through smart shopping and crafting things themselves.
One of my best friends started playing and in less than one month, just from buying recipes and crafting them for sale, had more influence available for buying IOs than some of us that had played for years.
Influence is literally created in this game. That is where the inflation you see really comes from, the fact that more currency is created by the minute.
In this topic, as with others I have seen you discuss, you simply refuse to see reason if it does not cater to your world view, regardless of the facts at hand.
The thing that you are railing against the most here, the idea of buying all of something and then being able to set the price, cannot even be done for than a few hours here and there on specific things.
The reason prices are high on things really is simple.
More currency is printed rapidly and people are willing to pay high prices. Add to that, it is play money in a game (that many of us realize that) and you have the market as it is today.
This overall greed you speak of does not do to the market what you claim.
But, by all means, continue to espouse the nonsense you enjoying spreading around so that people who really understand how things work can use you as an example to educate others.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
eryq2,
I know people that play this game for less than 10 hours a week that have billions of influence and IO all of their characters very well, through smart shopping and crafting things themselves. One of my best friends started playing and in less than one month, just from buying recipes and crafting them for sale, had more influence available for buying IOs than some of us that had played for years. Influence is literally created in this game. That is where the inflation you see really comes from, the fact that more currency is created by the minute. In this topic, as with others I have seen you discuss, you simply refuse to see reason if it does not cater to your world view, regardless of the facts at hand. The thing that you are railing against the most here, the idea of buying all of something and then being able to set the price, cannot even be done for than a few hours here and there on specific things. The reason prices are high on things really is simple. More currency is printed rapidly and people are willing to pay high prices. Add to that, it is play money in a game (that many of us realize that) and you have the market as it is today. This overall greed you speak of does not do to the market what you claim. But, by all means, continue to espouse the nonsense you enjoying spreading around so that people who really understand how things work can use you as an example to educate others. |
Lol. Ok. I haven't been here playing for 5 years. I also don't sell recipes everyday. I also haven't made billions by listing my recipes at 222 instead of trying to buy up all of the products to force players to pay more. I also haven't seen the increases in everything worth actually buying. I am so sorry i don't know how little the availabilty is in the mid range level of recipes so a SG was created to stop toons at certain levels to try to supply some. I also don't know that with only 3 for sale, that i couldn't buy all 3, log a 2nd account and buy 1 for a higher price, then place all 3 for that price to try to manipulate the market. I'm sorry that i have to play with people on a game that tries to do that and make it harder for the players that don't have the time or the influence that i do.
I guess i should laugh at those losers like the manipulators do. If it's so easy to make inf. or find the pieces that you want then why do people have the need to buy everything and list at higher prices? Just for giggles? But, instead of negative posts for those that attempt to do this, feel free to ridicule the one, me, that says that's a BS thing to do for the game. Go ahead, i'll wait. (how's that last line for a Katt Williams line, Loh)
eryq2,
How about you just keep nerd raging over what you perceive as big issues and I'll just keep enjoying a game I love to play.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Your deep, abiding ignorance is given away by the fact that not everyone does that and they still make money.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
I guess i should laugh at those losers like the manipulators do. If it's so easy to make inf. or find the pieces that you want then why do people have the need to buy everything and list at higher prices? Just for giggles?
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I have probably flipped something less than 10 times since I9 was released. I don't farm with any regularity, having only done it with any seriousness when the AE was first released. Despite this I have over 10B inf in hand on both sides of the game, plus 9 heavily IOd characters. I have a new hero who I've been leveling up solo who has over 1000 merits on hand who will be able to turn that into something like 750M inf conservatively.
If you spent less time railing against things that you mistakenly perceive to be this pervasive abuse of the system you might have actually been able to figure out that there are other ways to make towering piles of money besides flipping.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It's going to be difficult for the devs to do much about this without revamping some parts of either the drop system, the IO level mechanisms, the attractiveness of playing at 50 compared to other levels, or some mix of all of them. Right now, there are just too many factors acting to make the active market suppliers tend towards 50 and the non-50 "casual" suppliers not bother. Worse, several of these factors are self-reinforcing.
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Originally Posted by Frogfather
As to the part you are correct about, the scarcity of items at levels other than 50 is ridiculous. You can buy just about anything (even red-side) at level 50 and be okay...Ive had a wide level range of bids out for the pool c version of one of the accurate to hit debuff sets (the specific escapes me) and havent hit one in the mid 30s in near three weeks. I finally gave up and ran enough Ouro arcs to purchase it direct. What a waste of merits. But at least I had that option.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Prior to the AE explosion, most high-tier and some mid-tier orange salvage went for more than a million. Prophecies, Deific Weapons, and Pangean Soils often sold for more than 5 million blueside. AE brought those prices down to a fairly stable 1 million for almost all mid- and high-tier salvage blueside, but also brought some prices up (Military Cybernetic, I remember, rocketed up to a million from under 100k per). I do actually miss the AE days a little, since it was very easy to estimate how much crafting rare recipes would run you. Since AE stopped, some of the expensive oranges have actually dipped in price--especially redside.|
Originally Posted by eryq2
Wow, really? Well orange salvage went to 2mil after AE from a couple hundred thousand AND hasn't really came down. (even with EVERYONE listing it lower to sell it) Hm, purples went from 30mil to over 200 and up to 400mil. Crafted and/or uncrafted. (cept for the sleep ones or confuse) And every other set that people like... Numina, Touch of Death, Oblits, Kin Com, Imperv Armors, Positrons Blast. Heck, anything with good bonus %'s. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to see the old prices and all you see is the manipulated market prices.
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The price of most Touch of Deaths and Positron's Blasts have gone down recently, actually (throwing out the AE interregnum), though I've seen ToD go up just recently a bit. Some of the Impervium Armors have gone down, too. Obliteration doesn't seem to have changed much, though I haven't bought any in the last couple months. I don't know Numina's other than the unique, which has increased, but only that and Kinetic Combat have really increased in price. (The Kinetic Combat triple, lvl 35, once could be had for a million in recipe form, blueside.) So you're not telling the truth, or not very observant, or haven't been paying attention long enough to make a qualified statement about prices.
The main reason prices have gone up and up on the purple end is all those people powerleveling their toons to 50, using farming builds all the time, and generating enough influence to pay the silly prices.
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Originally Posted by Donna_
hehe i am fast learning that I am the type of person that makes flipping work :P
Impatience is the key... It's funny cause i always look at the last sold figues and bid the highest because i usually can't be bothered to delete a bid that doesn't get me the item and retype the figure... haha. So you probably would all make a mint outta me on union, :P Well here's an idea, is it possible to change the price of an item when people are unsure what the value really is... say there is something with no bids, but a small supply. 20 IO's for example. What would stop me buying them all, and reposting at a price + 20 Mil over the original... I would use another toon to buy 5 at the new price so that the sale history was consistant.... and there after all sales would be at the higher price??? Or would that just be very destructive to the market ? |
Read this. Now i guess i'm still the ignorant one one because i think this type of thinking is killing the market by keeping people away from it. This proves every post that i have left about how the prices get raised and stay raised or go up. You don't have to keep lieing about the prices not going up, i know better. I visit WW and sell often and i know the difference in what i sold for in the past and what i sell for now. That's why we need not to see what people pay for stuff or show 30 sells like someone else posted.
People actually do this, and i'm sure this person isn't the only one that thinks that way so to say it doesn't or don't happen shows the lies being told in the market section. So, i'll play the ignorant part and keep farming and selling at the inflated prices that people like this DO cause.
I don't need inf. To make posts about me not knowing how to make inf in game is just talking out their bums due to the fact you don't know me. To want better for the game or other people in this game to be able to enjoy IO'ing toons, getting sets, and what not doesn't make me the bad guy that you people want me to be. I know how the system works and to try to make me look bad just shows how scared the market people are of people wanting a better system for EVERYONE.
/em exits stage right, pursuing a dog