So with Going Rogue you Devs missed an opportunity...

I'm also against merging markets because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for either side to want to do things that help the other.

The RP arguments in favor of merging markets are utter BS. Arguments brought up in the past that somehow every hero in the world would never catch on that markets were merged, and then take steps to break the links, are also utter BS.

It would be very easy for a company not to look to hard at a new source of profit from a supply line that looks plausibly legit.

in points 2 and 3 you are actually supporting what i said, you do notice that. in fact your posts in other threads on the topic were what i was basing my claim on. as for topic 1, merging markets wouldn't hurt, but it just seems to be a band-aid till point 2 gets addressed, and that is something that players can only address themselves.

Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.

You're missing the point - there is no "point 2" or "point 3" if the markets are merged. Everyone's dumping the supply into the same pool, and the demand is pulling out of it. There are no longer separate pools so inf gain on either side is no longer relevant.

(As an aside: okay, so let's see if we can get more people to play redside. Where will they come from? New players? Very doubtful enough new players to make a difference would come exclusively to redside at this point in the game, if they came at all. Logically, they'd be coming from blueside. How are you going to get those players to stop playing blueside and start playing redside? Even if you do manage that, that's less supply that's suddenly hitting the hero market, and I don't think anyone can argue that supply heroside is "high," either. Basically, what I'm getting at is population isn't going to change. Going Rogue might help a bit, but I'm guessing many people will abandon redside entirely because of its relatively poor market, making the situation even worse. I suppose we'll see exactly what happens when GR hits, but that's my bet unless there's something we don't know yet. Personally, I have no intention of keeping characters redside after I get a few accolades, because I'll be able to IO them faster and cheaper blueside.)

Addressing a few efforts at RP counterarguments being made ...

Those who run Wentworth's deal with customers who have a strong collective interest in keeping the comic book equivalent of weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of the forces of evil; they'd better keep their noses clean, or they'll get found out and find themselves replaced by another firm that will. On a similar note, firms chasing profits regardless of the origins of items tends to be a self-destructive way of doing business; again, the customer base of Wentworth's isn't likely to stand for it. A lot of black market customers wouldn't like their market freely selling to heroes, either.

Crey doesn't mediate sales and transfers between virtually every hero and villain in the game. Also, Crey gets found out.

A fatal flaw in the logic offered up so far arises when trying to generalize from a specific example taking place over a short period of time to a different and far more complex situation, maintained in a stable state over the long term. Here are a few analogous examples of that kind of reasoning:

Example 1: I just drove down the street. That means I can drive around the world, or to the planet Pluto.
Example 2: I just learned how to add 2 and 2 together. I can learn quantum mechanics in the same amount of time.
Example 3: I spent my year bundling up and selling mortgages, many of which were given to families with questionable credit. I got a large bonus at the end of the year, property prices are rising, and the banking sector is raking in strong profits. What I'm doing must be good for the economy as a whole, over the long run.

Speaking of bubbles, perhaps the simplest way to burst the bubble on the silliness of an RP argument in favor of merging markets is to RP a conversation in which merged markets are explained to somebody who doesn't play COX. CG is a gamer who plays COX, and AJ is "Average Joe" (not a plumber) in what follows:

CG: So, I play this game called City of Heroes / Villains. They just finished merging the villain-side and hero-side markets for in-game items.

AJ: What's an “in-game item” and what kind of markets are you talking about?

CG: In-game items make our characters much more effective in battle. Think of things like armor, better weapons, more powerful spells, and the like. As for the markets, they are where heroes and villains buy and sell the in-game items that they find while being heroic and villainous.

AJ: So, what you're saying is that the game was recently changed so that heroes freely sell powerful items to villains, and villains to heroes. Don't heroes and villains tend to, like, not get along very well? I know its a game and all, but how could both sides be OK with that?

CG: Well, heroes don't actually mind doing that, and neither do villains.

AJ: I'm trying to picture Superman or Batman knowingly selling items to villains that make villains more powerful. That doesn't seem likely and anybody who does that doesn't seem very heroic to me. I'm also trying to picture Lex Luthor selling items that would make Superman stronger against Kryptonite, and that doesn't seem likely to me either. I'm not seeing the whole “willingly goes along with that” idea. In fact, that line of reasoning seems pretty ludicrous.

CG: Well, if that doesn't work for you, then how about I propose that every hero in the world is cast under a spell for all eternity so that they don't know what is happening. Any villain who might object also has their ability to perceive the truth altered.

AJ: If somebody is powerful enough to pull the wool over the eyes of every hero and villain in the world, why would they settle for running a market? Why wouldn't they dispose of all the weaklings who they can so easily deceive and just run the world?

CG: Well, I don't have a good reply to that. Perhaps the people who run the merged markets are really good at keeping the merger secret?

AJ: So, essentially every hero and villain in the world will remain unaware of the reality of merged markets, over the long run? Do you have any ESP-types of heroes or villains? Don't some of them have extraordinary senses? How could the kind of large-scale distribution system that would be needed be set up and run in secret? And how could it be that nobody would ever figure out that an item was originally stolen, or originally used by the in-game equivalent of Batman?

CG: You raise some good points. But, somehow they manage to keep it all secret or everybody who finds out the truth is somehow OK with merged markets. Say, how about you join me in-game sometime. They have free trial accounts ...

AJ: So, you're saying I can play a hero who willingly sells powerful items to evil types or who's too thick-headed to realize he's doing that. Yeah, that sounds really ... engaging and immersive.

Quite simply:
One vote FOR merging the markets, for reasons already stated in this thread.

/unsigned

One. It doesn't make since. Why would WW buy illegal goods? Or why would your hero be buying illegal goods?

Second, it won't do anything for villains. Because heroes will always have more players and therefore more influence to spend vs villains infamy.

This merging of the markets won't do anything for anyone on the recipe's being available front either.

Why? Because everyone wants the same recipes.

I know quite a few players who just sell the recipes to vendors, not bothering with WW outside of getting a purple drop, and knowing 'hey this recipe will actually get me influence'.

Also have to remember, all those recipes you want, that almost everyone else wants too? Yeah, they're keeping them when they get them, because they want them too.

Not to mention, as people are willing to buy recipes for a large amount of influence/infamy, people are going to ask for alot for that item.

See that long list of red IOs for sale? How they actually have some in the market, with a long list of people fighting with bids in, but none of them are getting it?

I put in a bid for 200million just to see if the previous bids of 400million were just people putting in a high amount right away.

Let it sit, as I placed other bids on items.

Nothing.

Next test, I had popular recipes sitting in the market at different levels. All above lvl 33, but under lvl 50.

They didn't sell after being in the market for two weeks.

Not to mention, most of the players I know, wait to get lvl 50 IO sets anyways.

I myself prefere level 33, and there's others out there who prefere that level for exemping purposes.

Only one toon I've ever made used sets lower than lvl 33, that wasn't lacking, and that was a WP/ tanker I set up to start getting better defense as soon as possible.

First of all, you don't need an RP argument for merged markets to exist. In fact, RP can claim they are separate, and the only way to tell would be meta-game. If you can buy that that office building is actually a museum, I fail to see why you'd fail to buy that the markets are merged when canon says they are separate. It solves the practical problem and it doesn't infringe on the conceptual problem's territory. It's still possible to tell that canon is lying, but our world isn't exactly devoid of other "make-believe" subjects.

In fact, I highly suspect that, if the markets were merged behind closed doors, it'd take a while before players even figured it out.

Secondly, I don't know too much about the economic side of things, but I do know that the villain market sucks to try and make a use out of. Nothing ever sells well and there are few things to buy from it. The hero market can be cut throat, but at least it's useful as a market. The only way to "fix" the villain-side market is to add in more players who use it, increasing numbers to a more sustainable level. This will not happen, and asking players to fix it themselves is both useless and insulting, specifically to those of us who play both sides equally. The only practical way to increase the market-participating population is to just tap into a new source of participation. And the only other source is the hero-side market.

Any distress this causes in prices and availability will smooth over pretty fast. The only worry is that heroes have more money, but once the taps are released and that money redistributes, it will come down to earning power outside the market. And I don't see villains having less OPPORTUNITY to earn inf outside it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Attila: Get a dictionary and look up the word "merger." Then reflect on what that means. Really take a little time to reflect on what that means; it doesn't mean a stolen truck here and there. It means a dedicated distribution system that functions more or less seamlessly, all year round for years on end.

Reflect on the odds that heroes would stand for merging a legitimate market and a corrupt system of commerce.

So, with "heroes would be OK with that" off the table, the argument is that heroes would be "too dumb to notice" and/or "powerless to curb the corruption, and so they would accept it and participate in it." And, not just some heroes would fall into the "too dumb / too powerless and therefore accepting of the status quo" category, but *all* heroes would fall in that category.

Moving beyond the "WTF" moment, what is enticing about roleplaying heroes who are dumb enough or morally bankrupt enough to actively support a corrupt system of commerce?