Is -end / -recovery an efficient mitigation technique?

Another query for the forum-reading playerbase. I'm looking at a Kin / Elec defender, but after reading some threads around this sort of build, I have my doubts as to whether or not it would work for my purpose.

I understand that for mitigation to occur, the enemy's endurance has to be completely drained and the recovery pretty well bottomed out as well, creating limiting conditions. So:

In PvE, would you consider powers that drain endurance and recovery to be effective at mitigating enemy attacks?

If so, what would be your preferred AT and powersets? Do you have non-trivial ideas for slotting the end/recovery-draining powers to make this strategy more efficient?

If not, could you share your experience that leads you to that conclusion?

Thanks again!

In my experience (electrical/electrical blaster, storm/electrical defender, Mind/Kin controller), it's not a very reliable mitigator for large groups if you're thinking of using something like Short Circuit solo.

First, you need to get into melee range to use Short Circuit. Short Circuit is generally not enough by itself to completely drain them all, so they'll have some juice left to attack you. If you also use Power Sink you will drain them dry, but most minions and LTs have only a few attacks (which don't use much end), so they can still attack you even after you've drained them. They are slowed down, but they're not helpless.

I've had better luck with bosses and EBs solo. They're harder to drain dry, but with two or three applications of Transference you can bottom them out. Since bosses have nasty attacks (that use a lot of end), they're usually relegated to their weaker low-end attacks. You'll definitely have good results against bosses with the Short Circuit/Transference combo. I've often been in fights where bosses/EBs can't do anything for lack of end.

Teamed, draining works better because they're not attacking you. The only thing is that it's not instant: if you just have Short Circuit you won't be able to zero out their end immediately. Given that you're a Kin, the whole group will probably be dead long before Short Circuit is recharged.

The optimal conditions for draining groups is to team with a tank, then use Short Circuit and Power Sink. In your case, Short Circuit/Transference will probably be a good one-two punch against bosses and some EBs.

Removing the enemy's endurance and recovery will reduce the amount of damage they do in general, but it's unlikely that you'll notice the reduction. The main problem is that completely draining their bar is difficult - Short Circuit slotted for endmod still need to be used twice in order to bottom out a target's endurance bar. And with a base recharge of 20s, and a 3s cast time, you probably would have defeated the enemy (or enemies) in that time if you had slotted for damage in SC instead. And SC is really the only power worth slotting endmod for endurance drain purposes, so that should tell you something about the other /Elec powers and Transfusion/ference.

There are two ways that I've seen effective endurance drain:
1. Running on a team with multiple people using endurance-drain builds, such that the enemies are drained immediately instead of waiting until your next SC. In particular, I've run with Don't Whiz on the Electric Fence.
2. Radiation Emission > EM Pulse, either slotted for endmod (with at least 82% enhancement), or combined with Power Build Up.

The first requires a couple of like-minded players. The latter can't happen until late in your character's lifetime, and even then, EMP has a very long recharge, so can't be used frequently. (Note that EMP doesn't have -recovery, so isn't enough on its own, either)

It is and it isn't.

The issue is that even with 1 point of endurance, most foes can use their heavy hitter attacks to retaliate. So, it's all or nothing.

In my opinion, the sweet spot is somewhere around the 30ish range, where nothing will stand against your draining powers. Later on, however, you may find foes that can withstand this tactic, most notably archvillains. All the same, NOTHING in the game drains like a kin/electric defender. The built in +recharge from kinetics lets short circuit be up twice a fight in many fights (With slotting, of course) 2 short circuits=no trouble thereafter, so long as you keep hitting with it. Transference will drain most bosses in a single hit, and short circuit keep the blue on "off." For the hard targets, and a few types of mobs, the tactic does peter off from being a total win to being more situational.

This said, kinetics brings its own other abilities, so even if you can't totally drain an enemy, siphon power+fulcrum shift can keep damage output from hit enemies down considerably. And your team will enjoy the speed boosts. The more electric around, by the way, the easier your sapping will become. I've played on teams with 4-5 electric blast characters, and the immediate draining was just plain sad. Nothing could lift a finger.

Transfusion does sap as well, but it does many things better, so don't bother slotting it for sapping. (It is nice, though, as right as an enemy can attack again, you can sap it again while healing from anything it just did.)

It has been awhile since I played my elec/elec brute and I know it is not the same AT. For mr after I got power sink along with lighting field running things were alittle easier for me. Never have gotton a healing power for him to be honest if I died with him haveing a healing power would not have helped.

A friend of mine has a eletric defender and I would play with her on my kintec controller was not alot we could not handle. I think should could drain groups faster then my eletric brute or atleast seemed that way.

Is it as effective as knockdown or holds not really since even fully drained they can still attack. It basically limits how often and fast they use there heavy hitting moves. Then again I have been hit with knockout blow from BaB even though I had his endrance floored(I was to focused on being able to do that me thinks :P).


I had 3 endrance mods in short circuit on my eletric corr and could floor groups of minions endrance. Just remember that tends to upset the big babies and they get all upset and stuff :P. I would say solo I think it would work once you get the hang of things and get things slotted. On a team you can just go crazy a win win fo me. Then again I also leveled my eletric/eletric brute without a single healing power or anything from the fighting pool. Had fun all the way to love that lighting rod.

As said above, it's most useful on teams. My Elec/Elec Blaster can drain entire groups to 0 endurance with hugely debuffed recovery in about the first 4 seconds of a fight. For a while, they're as good as held, and if I just keep cycling Ball Lightning and Short Circuit, they're basically going nowhere. Without somebody else taking the alpha... well, I can't always survive those four seconds.

I have an elec/elec blaster in the late 30s. As others have eluded to, I've found I do better playing to drain the green bar rather than the blue. However, I primarly solo. So apparently end drain is intended as a team tool than a solo tool. Thats fair I suppose, but ultimatly I lost interest in the toon since his secondary was borderline meaningless to me.

Geez. Come to think of it, I haven't played my elec/elec since before IOs. I wonder if IOs would turn me back onto him. Have to look into that.

I think maybe this is as good a place as any for this. I recently put together a totally insane Defender build. I never really could get into Defenders so thought maybe I could get more out of running a Defender for the debuffs instead of the damage they do. But slottable debuffs only include Rad (pointless), Dark (doable), and Elec. So I came up with this build:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Crazy: Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Radiation Emission
Secondary Power Set: Electrical Blast
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Electricity Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Radiant Aura -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal:50(9), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(15)
Level 1: Charged Bolts -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(15), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(43), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(43), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(46), T'pst-EndDrn%:30(46)
Level 2: Radiation Infection -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx:50(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx:50(3), DampS-ToHitDeb/EndRdx:50(3)
Level 4: Accelerate Metabolism -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(5), RechRdx-I:50(5)
Level 6: Swift -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 8: Enervating Field -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndRdx-I:50(9)
Level 10: Short Circuit -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(11), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(11), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(42), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(43)
Level 12: Lightning Bolt -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(13), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(13), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(37), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(42), T'pst-EndDrn%:30(42)
Level 14: Hover -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 16: Ball Lightning -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(17), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg:50(17), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(19), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(19)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(A)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(21)
Level 22: Lingering Radiation -- Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(23), RechRdx-I:50(40), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 24: Choking Cloud -- G'Wdw-Acc/EndRdx:50(A), EoCur-Acc/EndRdx:50(25), EndRdx-I:50(25), Lock-%Hold:50(34)
Level 26: Fallout -- Posi-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg:50(31), AnWeak-Acc/Rchg:50(34)
Level 28: Tesla Cage -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(29), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(29), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(31), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(31), T'pst-EndDrn%:30(37)
Level 30: Mutation -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(A)
Level 32: EM Pulse -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(33), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(33), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(33), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(34)
Level 35: Voltaic Sentinel -- Efficacy-EndMod:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(36), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(36), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(36), SvgnRt-Acc/EndRdx:50(37)
Level 38: Thunderous Blast -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(39), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(39), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(39), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(40)
Level 41: Electric Fence -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Charged Armor -- TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx:50(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), TtmC'tng-ResDam:50(45), ResDam-I:50(45), EndRdx-I:50(46)
Level 47: Power Sink -- P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(48), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(48), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(48), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50), RechRdx-I:50(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 4% Enhancement(Heal)
• 5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 25% FlySpeed
• 183.1 HP (18%) HitPoints
• 25% JumpHeight
• 25% JumpSpeed
• MezResist(Sleep) 2.2%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
• 20% (0.33 End/sec) Recovery
• 50% (2.12 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 1.26% Resistance(Fire)
• 1.26% Resistance(Cold)
• 25% RunSpeed

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

The only alt I have that I consider to be a successful endurance "sapper" is my elec/ff defender. He has enough positional def to approach the soft cap allowing him to survive in the midst of melee and fire off short circuit & ball lightning over and over.

He makes a really good support toon -- especially on follow to the lead tank, but he doesn't dish out enough damage on his own to make him a fun solo/attack toon.

This thread is full of "theoretical naysayers." Allow me to interject with my direct, personal experiences on the subject.

-End/-Recov is a wonderful form of mitigation, in my opinion. Short Circuit and Tesla Cage are both -Recov, and Short Circuit and Power Sink are both -End (along with the rest of Electrical Blast). I have an Emp/Elec Defender and an Elec/Pain Corruptor, and both do their best when entire groups are forced to sit there and stare; unable to fight back. Of course, they're both also able to heal themselves to an extent, which is probably a factor in my success.

Bosses and Elite Bosses are even better. With the exception of the Purple Triangles, you can easily stack a couple holds on them (one comes from Tesla Cage) and keep them busy while you drain them, then simply apply an occasional Tesla Cage and Short Circuit to keep them dry indefinitely. People seem quick to dismiss the effects of Endurance Drain on bosses or higher, but I've successfully and completely drained a Lattice in the Abyss without any help before the team took it out. And this was without Hasten.

My teams have always been grateful when the entire spawn just stands there unable to fight back. It really does serve to make the fight a bit unbalanced in the team's favor.

I haven't found it overly useful on my Elec/Elec/Elec. He's curretnly lvl 42, and has a fully slotted powersink and SC. I CAN drain a group, a relitively small, tighly packed ground, and keep them reletively helpless, but i've normally endured a pretty sound beating to get to that point as i've had to use 2 moves to get there, and SC has a longish anamation.

I've drained EB's and Bosses and that's been helpful, and easier to do and survive. Can't do AV's.

All in all.. it's.. something. If your an Elec/Elec i'd say at least try and use it when you can. May as well, you'll want PS for endurance recoping, and SC is is decent AoE. Fully slot PS and Frankenslot SC for -end and - rech, while keeping it's damage and it's a nice little "bonus" IMO.

But in the long run, sometimes it just more trouble then it's worth. IMO of course.

I have a level 44 Kinetics/Electric Defender who was designed to be an endurance drainer. (His background is that he is an Egyptian who can drain the essence from foes and convert it to electrical energy stored in his body. His name is "Sultan Battery," one of my favorite names.)

The biggest problem is getting reliable AoE endurance drain fast enough to do much good. It takes at least two shots of Short Circuit, so you really need two powers to do the job. Single targets are easy . . . Transference+Short Circuit will drain bosses and keep them drained.

One effective method I have found is using Power Boost+Thunderous Blast from range, pop a blue, run in and use Transference on anything still living followed by Short Circuit. They stay drained for a while that way, but the long recharge on Power Boost and Thunderous Blast mean that you can't use that very often.

Overall, the benefits of Endurance Drain are limited unless you can fully drain them and keep them drained, which is hard to do without taking a lot of damage on a regular basis.

It works EXTREMELY well with a team of sappers. Almost all the 'it works poorly or with limited success' thoughts above are in reference to either solo or being the lone -recovery/-end source on the team. I've watched AV's, GM's, EB's and Bosses on down drained dry and become stuck there by the alpha strike of Shock Troopers and DWEF (mentioned above by Fleeting Whisper and Shock Troopers is a redside RO group). The only real issue is also true of most nearly every form of mitigation available to any AT(s) in the game... surviving long enough to let loose the team's alpha strike.

My experience is mostly with my FF/Elec defender. Solo, I have the luxury of taking the alpha in PFF. Drop Personal Force Field, hit Short Circuit/Ball Lightning (BL is a very small end drain, but they have no recovery after SC so every bit counts) and they'll get about one attack in.

I understand that Kin/Elec defenders and Elec/Elec or Elec/Energy blasters can drain, or near-drain, in two shots. As mentioned "Surviving those four seconds" is the issue.

And, of course, if you're building a character like that and you do NOT fill your friends list with Elec Blast characters, you're doing yourself a disservice. Two properly slotted SC's = no endurance.

They do tend to run around a bit, once you drain 'em, but that's a lot less of a problem than them shooting back.

I played a Kin/Elec to 50, often solo.

My memories of +3 Freakshow groups (for example) were:
Transference the boss from range, Short Circuit as he came into range - he's now drained, and his pals are half-drained. Tesla Cage the next most dangerous, heal myself, Fulcrum, Siphon Speed and Power all in no particular order and then hit Short Circuit when it comes up.

I usually survived this, and couldn't do it wthout End Drain. Both Transference and Short Circuit were both slotted for End Drain.

My first character was a Elec/Elec Blaster, and once I hit 35 I'd use End drain too.

Now, the current state of End Drain powers is pretty poor. I'd say these two builds are the only two who can drain enemies in one attack cycle. Everyone else is relying on Short Circuit coming up again. Elec/NRG used to until Power Boost took a hit.
The whole thing revolves around a single power that has a long animation and requires close range (20 feet, not melee range strictly but close).

My experience is that Kin/Elec makes the best sapper. The single target drain in Transference is that good.

Yeah...to clarify, -end or recovery won't do. You need both. If you do -recovery, (very rare, by the way) what remaining endurance they have will be used to deal damage. As NPC's rarely use much endurance, this makes it not very useful alone. -End keeps them from attacking, but they recover fast enough that even through good -end power spams, the blue will probably pop up fast enough for some damage to be eeked out.

Put them together, though, and you're golden. Transference is an incredible -endurance, and Short circuit is a very good -endurance with some incredible -recovery. They work wonders paired. There are a few other drain/-recovery option out there besides these, but kin/elec defenders have pretty much best drains available often...spammable often.

I dont know if this has been mentioned yet, but twice is better than never:

Custom architect enemies use player powers that tend to have higher end costs than built-in enemies. So end drain can be more effective against them.

I havent really tested this, but heard this repeated on these boards - so it may be worth testing at least.