Please replace Vigilence inherent with something that lets us slot intelligently


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Nobody wanted to mention the videos of defenders soloing AV's, huh?
Whether one Defender, Rad/Sonic, can defeat an AV, does not tell us whether the Inherent Power needs to be reworked.

Fire/Psy Dominators were one if not the best Farmer on the Red side. It didn't mean that Domination or Dominators as a whole were working.


 

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Actually, the first video on Youtube that I found was a Stormie doing it. I think someone posted a bunch of Traps videos as well in this very forum a while back. And I can't guarantee a Darkity can do it ... but I'd be amazed if they could not.

While four different Defender primaries soloing an AV is not a guarantee that "defenders are good enough" ... it's a data point.


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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Actually, the first video on Youtube that I found was a Stormie doing it. I think someone posted a bunch of Traps videos as well in this very forum a while back. And I can't guarantee a Darkity can do it ... but I'd be amazed if they could not.

While four different Defender primaries soloing an AV is not a guarantee that "defenders are good enough" ... it's a data point.
Not a particularly useful one though. A lot of ATs can solo AVs or GMs. In fact off the the top of my head I can recall examples from all ATs except Tanks and the EATs (and I'm pretty sure that most of the EATs can I just can't recall examples).


 

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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Not a particularly useful one though. A lot of ATs can solo AVs or GMs. In fact off the the top of my head I can recall examples from all ATs except Tanks and the EATs (and I'm pretty sure that most of the EATs can I just can't recall examples).
But, but, but Adeon Hawkwood...are you telling me now defenders are like the other ATs already?

That can't be!!! I mean we were told in this very thread:
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They do underperform to the point of near failure for soloing. All AT are supposed to be able to solo.
And some are looking for faster ways to solo. Now defenders are just like the others? I am so confused here.


 

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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
But, but, but Adeon Hawkwood...are you telling me now defenders are like the other ATs already?

That can't be!!! I mean we were told in this very thread:


And some are looking for faster ways to solo. Now defenders are just like the others? I am so confused here.
Soloing an AV doesn't mean you can solo at a reasonable pace.


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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Not a particularly useful one though. A lot of ATs can solo AVs or GMs. In fact off the the top of my head I can recall examples from all ATs except Tanks and the EATs (and I'm pretty sure that most of the EATs can I just can't recall examples).
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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
But, but, but Adeon Hawkwood...are you telling me now defenders are like the other ATs already?

That can't be!!! I mean we were told in this very thread:


And some are looking for faster ways to solo. Now defenders are just like the others? I am so confused here.
When discussing general solo abilities I find that argueing that the ability to solo an AV proves that an AT is a 'decent' soloer is somewhat of a strawman. The ability to build something that can take out a single hard target does not prove that the same AT or even the same character can play general solo content at any decent speed, especially as most AV solo builds are either heavily IO'ed or rely on inspirations, temp powers, veteran powers, etc.

Now, I am glad that there are folks who find the current solo abilities of defenders to be adequate - I think they suck. I also don't understand why everyone is so vehemently against anything that will help a defenders solo speed - as long as the changes don't also make the defender MORE effective in a group I see no problem with it.

The only defenders I have (on two different accounts played heavily on two different servers) are a couple of Kin defenders that I basically use as buffbots when I am in the mood to dual box. I have been trying to like defenders since the game first came out as there are several character concepts I have that work best as defenders but every time I try to play one, even the most solo capable, the true suckiness of a defender's solo speed just drives me away again.

So, until something is done to improve the ability of defenders to solo I will pretty much continue on as I have - avoiding defenders blueside and when GR comes out I will bring my corruptors over and laugh at the poor defenders who are begging for groups. (ok ok - a bit of hyperbole there as I don't really wish anyone bad luck with the game and I hope for the sake of those who love the current defenders that they don't get the short end of the stick after GR comes out - but the way some of you fight ANY change to defenders drives me a little crazy).


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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
Soloing an AV doesn't mean you can solo at a reasonable pace.
What challenge is there if you can solo AVs? 3 mins? 5 mins? Would you like to ever provide some proof or data yourself?


 

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Originally Posted by EricHough View Post
When discussing general solo abilities I find that argueing that the ability to solo an AV proves that an AT is a 'decent' soloer is somewhat of a strawman. The ability to build something that can take out a single hard target does not prove that the same AT or even the same character can play general solo content at any decent speed, especially as most AV solo builds are either heavily IO'ed or rely on inspirations, temp powers, veteran powers, etc.

Now, I am glad that there are folks who find the current solo abilities of defenders to be adequate - I think they suck. I also don't understand why everyone is so vehemently against anything that will help a defenders solo speed - as long as the changes don't also make the defender MORE effective in a group I see no problem with it.

The only defenders I have (on two different accounts played heavily on two different servers) are a couple of Kin defenders that I basically use as buffbots when I am in the mood to dual box. I have been trying to like defenders since the game first came out as there are several character concepts I have that work best as defenders but every time I try to play one, even the most solo capable, the true suckiness of a defender's solo speed just drives me away again.

So, until something is done to improve the ability of defenders to solo I will pretty much continue on as I have - avoiding defenders blueside and when GR comes out I will bring my corruptors over and laugh at the poor defenders who are begging for groups. (ok ok - a bit of hyperbole there as I don't really wish anyone bad luck with the game and I hope for the sake of those who love the current defenders that they don't get the short end of the stick after GR comes out - but the way some of you fight ANY change to defenders drives me a little crazy).
Can defenders solo? Yes
Can players use tools in the game to improve their solo efficiency? Yes
Are there ATs that can solo more efficiently? Yes

Do you have information on what solo speed and efficiency are supposed to be?

The sky is not falling for defenders after GR.

When people like the devs say that defenders are the most balanced AT, just what data/proof/etc. is there to show they need to be changed? And if they are changed, at what cost to maintain balance? Or are you saying the devs will give a free buff to the AT?

To clarify my position, I love defenders and what they do for teams. I will posts against ideas like this if it means nerfing the greatest part of being a defender - their contributions to a team. I am aware of their sacrifice soloing, but I work within the game (temps/IOs/etc.) to make soloing better.


 

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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
What challenge is there if you can solo AVs? 3 mins? 5 mins? Would you like to ever provide some proof or data yourself?
Well, not all defenders can solo AVs, so there's that.

And I think it was already discussed that defenders can solo in relative safety, just fairly slowly. However, my D3 solos more slowly than my Ice/Stone tanker, and isn't as safe.

I worked on soloing Chimera on my D3 way back in issue 4, and I can't even begin to describe how long that process took before I gave up. It was well over 5 minutes, though, and I had to keep a tray full of break frees (or whatever we had in those days) because he has a sleep or hold or some such thing, and losing all my toggles was not helping.


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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
Well, not all defenders can solo AVs, so there's that.
Not all ATs can solo AVs either. So defenders are like other ATs. If a defender can take EBs down, what challenge is 3 mins or 2 mins/1 Lt.? Just what difficulty are you talking here? I solo with one of my MM's at +4/8. But my scrapper was +2/4. Just where on the scale are we for defenders? Again, asking for some numbers here.

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And I think it was already discussed that defenders can solo in relative safety, just fairly slowly. However, my D3 solos more slowly than my Ice/Stone tanker, and isn't as safe.
I cried with tears soloing my ice/ice tank, especially against healing foes like Tsoo or Freakshow. My D3 had no issues soloing. My experience must be telling me that defenders must be better than tanks...really?

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I worked on soloing Chimera on my D3 way back in issue 4, and I can't even begin to describe how long that process took before I gave up. It was well over 5 minutes, though, and I had to keep a tray full of break frees (or whatever we had in those days) because he has a sleep or hold or some such thing, and losing all my toggles was not helping.
Issue 4...how does that apply now with IOs, change in diff settings, dual builds, or even a temp like a shivan? Would it be the same or are the devs bringing us back to I4?

I will ask again for some clarity on soloing speed.
What is the base line here - scrapper speed? Blaster speed? Controller? Another AT? What about after GR - should we adjust to MM, stalker, dom, VEAT speeds? Please shine some light on what soloing speed is.
What about power sets - fire/kin contr vs grav/ff? DM/regen scrapper vs. spines/WP scrapper?

And so what on speed. Say it takes 100 hr (*made up number*) for a scrapper to solo to 50. And a defender takes 120 hr or even 150 hr. What difference does it make?


 

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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
Can defenders solo? Yes
Can players use tools in the game to improve their solo efficiency? Yes
Are there ATs that can solo more efficiently? Yes

Do you have information on what solo speed and efficiency are supposed to be?

The sky is not falling for defenders after GR.

When people like the devs say that defenders are the most balanced AT, just what data/proof/etc. is there to show they need to be changed? And if they are changed, at what cost to maintain balance? Or are you saying the devs will give a free buff to the AT?

To clarify my position, I love defenders and what they do for teams. I will posts against ideas like this if it means nerfing the greatest part of being a defender - their contributions to a team. I am aware of their sacrifice soloing, but I work within the game (temps/IOs/etc.) to make soloing better.
You are exactly one of those folks that drive me crazy. As I noted, I think defenders SUCK at soloing - that is clearly a personal opinion and I don't need data to back it up, just 5 years of playing the game with MANY attempts to play defenders. The only defenders I have gotten to decent levels are 2 that I started out in semi-perma groups (a storm/dark and a rad/electric) and played to the late 20's in those groups before they broke up and 2 kin defenders, one which I duoed to the low 20's and the other one I dual boxed up to 20 with the first. In groups, even as small as a duo I am fine with defenders but I won't solo ANY of the 4 defenders I currently have in the high 20's (I deleted my rad/electric so I could re-use the name and my storm/dark is a market bot - I keep her around because she was one of my first characters and I can't bring myself to delete her).

I can live with the current status, I am just not pleased with it and the more folks like you fight to keep the status quo the LESS happy I become with you. Answer me this - if we can some up with a way to improve the soloing speed WITHOUT impacting the grouping ability of defenders (either positively or negatively), would you be ok with that?

if you can answer yes to this question then we are cool - I understand that this might not be an achievable goal (improving defenders solo ability without impacting thier group ability) but all the replies I have seen you make so far in this thread lead me to believe that you would object to any changes at all.


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When I solo my defenders at +0/x1 and my tankers at +0/x1, the tankers are always faster. The tankers can also solo at higher levels against larger numbers of mobs. I'm not saying that defenders need to solo against larger spawns at higher levels (and I'm sure some powersets can), but I think defenders could use a bit more soloing speed.

Ice melee needed a buff for a very long time. Using an underperforming set to set up a straw man is silly.


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Originally Posted by EricHough View Post
You are exactly one of those folks that drive me crazy.
Crazy as in it is bad to have a different/opposite view? Would it be easier just to accept whatever is posted?

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if you can answer yes to this question then we are cool
The answer is yes. I view defenders best attribute is their contributions in teams from their primaries. From what I have seen in my playing the game for 5+ years too and reading is the forums is the devs don't give things for free unless they felt something wasn't working as envisioned (aka stalker/blaster changes). So buffing a defender's solo ability would be balanced with something. And since it can't be from our secondary, since that is low enough, it would come from our primaries, which I feel is our best attribute. If the devs give a buff with no nerf, I definitely will be happy since I love my playing my defenders and will be making more.


 

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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
When I solo my defenders at +0/x1 and my tankers at +0/x1, the tankers are always faster. The tankers can also solo at higher levels against larger numbers of mobs. I'm not saying that defenders need to solo against larger spawns at higher levels (and I'm sure some powersets can), but I think defenders could use a bit more soloing speed.

Ice melee needed a buff for a very long time. Using an underperforming set to set up a straw man is silly.
So still no numbers on soloing speed or what a baseline is? What diff setting? Keep avoiding the questions I guess or providing any rationale, proof, data to support your position. Defenders solo just fine "I think", especially when they take out orange con EBs. A +0/1 mission is easy.


 

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Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene View Post
Have defenders ever had a damage boost?
No, they have not. Not while the game's been released, anyways.

Defenders did get a sizable endurance discount on their secondary powers in Issue 2, though. I think it cut their endurance costs by 33% or some similar number.


 

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Originally Posted by PennyPA View Post
So still no numbers on soloing speed or what a baseline is? What diff setting? Keep avoiding the questions I guess or providing any rationale, proof, data to support your position. Defenders solo just fine "I think", especially when they take out orange con EBs. A +0/1 mission is easy.
I recorded my defenders solo speed 144 Hours from level 1 to 44, 19 total deaths.
The remaining levels 45-50 were all obtained during the last double_XP weekend with the help of my guildmates.

Is that slower than other soloers, probably. But Scrappers and Blasters SHOULD solo faster.

The question of solo speed comes down to how fast YOU (each individual) is patient enough to deal with. I have soloed Controllers pre-containment, so Defenders are just fine IMHO as far as speed. My concern is that controllers now solo as fast (or nearly as fast depending on level and powersets) but with MUCH greater safety. If Defenders are meant to be less safe while solo than controllers, then perhaps they should be markedly faster, OR... perhaps their level of safety could be improved.

Just thinking out loud really


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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
The question of solo speed comes down to how fast YOU (each individual) is patient enough to deal with.
And that's exactly what it comes down too.

Is there truly any AT and/or powerset combo that can NOT solo at +0/1 setting?
If every AT and/or powerset combo can solo at +0/1, isn't that the baseline for the game and WAI?
If there is an AT such as defender that can NOT solo at +0/1, then there is an issue that should be fixed/improved.

But coming out and saying "speed up soloing", I would like to hear compared to what and how much.
5% faster, 20% faster, 100%? At what point will make a player happy?
And where does that make defenders - the same as controllers or corruptors? Better than blasters, but not as good as scrappers?
Would tankers complain that they want to solo faster now too? Or Khelds?

And lastly, what would a player sacrifice for this increased soloing speed unless they are implying this would be a free buff based on no data/proof/etc.?


 

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Mr. Quizzles, I don't think Defenders did get that boost. I'm pretty sure it's always been 5.2 endurance per damage scale for everyone. We didn't have Real Numbers back then, so it was harder to tell.

Quick moment of Tomax. Same power for Blasters and Defenders, same price.

PennyPA:

They put in an across-the-board improvement in end usage for everyone when they put in ED (3-slotted Stamina gave the same results as 6-slotted Stamina used to, so the pre-stamina game got a bonus) and people continue to ask for improvements in END usage.

They put in an increase in Flight speed and people continue to ask for improvements in Flight speed.

They put in an improvement in Dark Armor performance, (several improvements) and people continue to ask for improvements in Dark Armor...


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While I would like the replacement of Vigilience to work solo, I don't know that solo speed is really what I'd aim for. I was thinking more quality of life solo than actual solo speed.

The reason that I think that endurance help is the way to go is because it won't make them solo much faster as it does not change their damage, but it does greatly improve their quality of life solo.

What it does do is:
1. Let them rest less.
2. Let them slot better.
3. Use the powers that were created to defend a whole team solo and have the endurance to actually do that
4. Use more attacks since with less damage it will take more attacks and more endurance to beat the same enemies.

I'm not looking to make Defenders a ton better with a new inherent power, I'm trying to make the Inherent power work better. I want to make Defenders different from Corrupters and to have advantages over Corrupters and Controllers. I think some how improving and changing Vigilence is the best way to make that difference more noticable.


 

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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Quick moment of Tomax. Same power for Blasters and Defenders, same price.
Those aren't the same power. Archery is one of those powersets that are different for blasters than it is for other archetypes. You can see that the animation and recharge times are both different.


 

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Originally Posted by Talionis View Post
While I would like the replacement of Vigilience to work solo, I don't know that solo speed is really what I'd aim for. I was thinking more quality of life solo than actual solo speed.

The reason that I think that endurance help is the way to go is because it won't make them solo much faster as it does not change their damage, but it does greatly improve their quality of life solo.

What it does do is:
1. Let them rest less.
2. Let them slot better.
3. Use the powers that were created to defend a whole team solo and have the endurance to actually do that
4. Use more attacks since with less damage it will take more attacks and more endurance to beat the same enemies.

I'm not looking to make Defenders a ton better with a new inherent power, I'm trying to make the Inherent power work better. I want to make Defenders different from Corrupters and to have advantages over Corrupters and Controllers. I think some how improving and changing Vigilence is the best way to make that difference more noticable.
I am in agreement with you on this. It is clear that the spirit of vigilance was meant to be an endurance savings, so make it work better and make it work while solo, and I am a happy Defender (Happier actually).


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I have a fully IO'd and accoladed ill/emp troller and a non-accoladed emp/sonic defender with 3 IO sets. I must tell u that my endurance is alot better on the defender simply because of vigilance. We don't need another copy cat with the whole mezz thing. Blasters can already attack with their teir1 and teir2 powers while mezzed and doms have domination. We dont need another copy

And dont rely on those "High", "Medium", and "Low" marks on the character creation screen. Those are way off. Blasters have medium health, not low health. That's just rediculous considering their HP is just slightly under scrapper base.

I do believe Frosticus made a comparison btw corrs and fenders and fenders came out on top. And no, scourge is not as reliable as you think it is.


 

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Originally Posted by wasabivirus View Post
I do believe Frosticus made a comparison btw corrs and fenders and fenders came out on top. And no, scourge is not as reliable as you think it is.
Whether Scourge is reliable or not, it is better than nothing. The extra endurance from Vigilence is really about nothing, it is actually nothing when you solo. Playstyle really doesn't change much solo to non-solo, you'll use all the same powers with the exception of the ally buffs. Endurance savings is practically nothing when you aren't solo and your team is doing ok. But then you have massive endurance when things go bad.

Its that inconsistancy, that I think really hurts the Vigilence mechanic. When balanced the Vigilence mechanic doesn't have to be a world beater. I think its best to have a more consistant power that allows you to manage your endurance better.


 

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How is Scourge unreliable? Scourge goes off more as something has less and less hp. If anything, Scrapper crits are the ones that are unreliable.

If you mean the fact that Scourge doesn't kick in until stuff is almost dead, that's a question of effectiveness, not reliability.

As far as Vigilance is concerned, I think its garbage. An inherent that rewards you for not doing your job or doing it badly is a poorly designed inherent. Gauntlet doesn't become more effective the more your team mates are aggroed. Containment doesn't kick in on mobs that aren't mezzed.

Depending on the mechanics of it, come GR I do think there will be a lot less reason to make a Defender. In my experience, the increased buff/debuff power between a Corr and Defender is not really noticeable, but the damage difference is. For me personally, if things stay as they are the only reason I'd make a Defender is for Empathy, Kinetics to get SB earlier or the absurd -res numbers on Sonic Blast.

The question of how to buff Defenders, (and I do think they need a buff), is tricky imo. Buffing their offense doesn't do anything to differentiate them from Corruptors and going the opposite direction and buffing their primaries doesn't help most of them with soloing and makes the current strong soloers even moreso.

My personal opinion is that an inherent should either help an AT either perform their role better, reward them for doing so or ideally both. Gauntlet does, Criticals do, Newfiance does, Scourge does, Assassination does, Domination does, Containment does, Conditioning is boring but does, Fury does, whatever the MM inherent whose name currently escapes me does.

Vigilance doesn't. It helps you do your job better in the sense of if a team is getting hammered, your endurance costs plummet but if a team is doing well, (which should be the goal as a Defender), its useless.

I don't know why you guys haven't been yelling about this as loudly as Stalkers and Blasters did about their inherents.


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Actually, defender players have asked for new vigilance since its introduction. The problem is, the functionality varies a lot. Blasters, no matter the powerset, are pretty similar. They shoot stuff, hit stuff, in general, make stuff fall down dead. Stalkers sneak up on stuff, slice stuff. Defenders? They CAN speed stuff up, OR shield it, OR heal it, OR weaken it, OR boost it, OR some of the above. While corruptors have the singular blasting as their similarity/common point of focus for their inherent, and controllers have the commonality of their controls, defenders' focus is on those wildly varrying support sets.

The inherent power works well for some defenders, and works best for some of the most popular sets. It does diddly for some of the oddball ones, but the folks who play the oddball ones know what they're doing often and can make it without the aid of vigilance.

So, how do you make vigilance help all support sets, and hopefully diversify defenders from corruptors? That's what this thread is about.