Please replace Vigilence inherent with something that lets us slot intelligently
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-16 08:55 in Defenders
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Acctually, your very wrong about a few things.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I hate Vigilence as an Archetype power.
Yes it does almost nothing. But even worse it makes it impossible to slot correctly. Sometimes on teams I have no problems at all with Endurance. I'm running fine. Then I solo or the team does better and all my powers drain me to the ground. It's impossible to slot Defenders for Endurance reduction in the powers. Its either overkill or never enough. My suggestion... make Defenders the one Archetype that barely has to worry about endurance. Use the mechanic from Domination. Instead of mez protection, have it work like a Break Free that way even if you are Mezed you can use this power as a one time wake up to try to save your team. Have it fill up your Endurance bar and have it cast Conserve power. Make it so its hard, but not impossible to Perma Vigilence just like Domination. That's it done. Nothing else. The idea is that when their teamates are in trouble the Defenders can pull into their reserves break mez's and use their powers to save their teamates. Conserve Power blows as a power. But it would allow many builds to skip the Fitness chain. Which yes, I know all Archetypes can skip Stanima, especially now that we have IO's, but it would make it a little simplier. My Defenders are also the toons that I usually want to take more pool powers on anyway. I know Power Mastery has Conserve Power in its Epic, let it stack with your vigilence version of conserve power much like Aim and Build Up do. Its funny but now that Domination doesn't have a damage component, I realize its probably much closer to the inherent power that a Defender should have and not a Dominator. It would help solo, which Defenders weren't made for, but would still help it without drastically changing Defender balance. The biggest thing is that a power like Domination can be planned around whether you are solor or on a team. Whether your team is doing great or doing pourly. It would let us be intelligent about our slotting which is the most important part of the whole equation. |
First of all, if you belive Domination is close to what Vigliance is, then you havent been paying attention.Dominators now have near Blaster levels of damage without Domination.
Domination its self, DOUBLES your control ability.A mag 3 hold becomes a mag 6 hold when you trigger Domination.So to compair it with Vigilace, would be totally incorrect.
The Defender as is, is perfectly fine for the role they are supposed to play in the game.As for having difficulties with slotting your endurance?That ones gotta be on you.Vigilance is helpeful when your in a crunch, and dont think for a second that because your a Defender with heals and buffs, that your team should never be in danger.That would be silly.
Dont depend on Vigilance to do your dirty work with Endurance.Make a effort to slot your powers for Endurance like you would any other build.Vigilance is just a plus, and the best time it comes into effect, is when you are almost out of endurance, and things get hairy because of someones mistake, or your lack of Stamina, then all the sudden BOOM!The team is in trouble, and your Endurance bar is full once again!
Alot of people cry out for extra damage, take away Vigilance, and I have to ask, why would you want to ruin the Strongest DeBuffer/Buffer/Healer in the entire game?
If your dissapointed with the damage, go play a Corruptor, and enjoy the 25%ish weaker buffing/debuffing/healing secondaries.Matter of fact, Thats probably why many are not happy on a Defender in the first place, and they need to be on a Corr.
I personally perfer a Defender over a Corruptor.Sure, it does less base damage, and doesnt do double damage after half HP on foes, but, it doesnt have too.It has the "Nanner Nanner Boo Boo!" effect with its primary power sets.
I run a Dark/Dark Defender, and I can tell you, that the NNBB effect happens alot on that character.Hit a mob with a cone blast or 2, and all of the sudden they cant hit me, and anyone else for that matter, well, not very often atleast.
I honestly think its all about the AT, if it doesnt feel right, then try the villians version of the AT.If you dont like a Defender, try a Corr.Dont like a Tanker?Try a Brute.Scrapper, no?Try a Stalker then.The list goes on and on.
With Going Rogue comming up, I dont think the reasons of Red Side or Blue Side will effect what you play.Which acctually does effect alot of players on there choices in ATs.Some people cant function Red Side for a computer, or internet connection reason.Others,dont like being a Villian.That wont be a problem soon.
He means in function, NOT in use. As in, you have a vigilence bar you gain by using stuff from you primary set to assist teammates/debuff enemies. Once youve done it enough you can click the power, it fills your endurance and gives you temporary Mez protection and removes mezzes from you. IE: It functions the same way, but has a different effect.
And I think it's an amazing Idea.
Defenders are the primary support Archetype and they need to have an inherent that reflects this. The new vigilence version would allow you to un-mez yourself and rush back in to help your team as best as you can.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
you *******!!!!
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It's an interesting idea (although I think you should only have two of the three bonuses) but I think that making it balanced for different flavors of Defenders would be tricky. Assume for the sake of an argument that you can charge your vigilance bar using both your primary and secondary and that for balance reasons only click powers count (i.e. no leaving your toggles on to charge Vigilance while AFK). This produces a large disparity in how well different primaries can charge Vigilance. The buff heavy sets will be able to easily charge it outside of combat but repeatedly re-buffing (or rocking the healing aura if they have one) while the debuff heavy sets will need to be in combat to charge it (and to add insult to injury these sets tend to have longer recharges on their powers). You could balance it by having it only charge when attacking but that doesn't work as well thematically (although it would help get rid of the "defenders shouldn't blast" mentality). I actually like the core idea, I'm just not sure how practical it would be to implement in a balanced and thematic manner.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Use the mechanic from Domination. Instead of mez protection, have it work like a Break Free that way even if you are Mezed you can use this power as a one time wake up to try to save your team. Have it fill up your Endurance bar and have it cast Conserve power. Make it so its hard, but not impossible to Perma Vigilence just like Domination.
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As an alternative, make it a static bonus (either endurance cost reduction or recovery) which scales based on team size (similar to the Khelds) but still provides a smaller bonus when solo.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The Defender as is, is perfectly fine for the role they are supposed to play in the game.As for having difficulties with slotting your endurance?That ones gotta be on you.Vigilance is helpeful when your in a crunch, and dont think for a second that because your a Defender with heals and buffs, that your team should never be in danger.That would be silly.
Dont depend on Vigilance to do your dirty work with Endurance.Make a effort to slot your powers for Endurance like you would any other build.Vigilance is just a plus, and the best time it comes into effect, is when you are almost out of endurance, and things get hairy because of someones mistake, or your lack of Stamina, then all the sudden BOOM!The team is in trouble, and your Endurance bar is full once again! |
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| Alot of people cry out for extra damage, take away Vigilance, and I have to ask, why would you want to ruin the Strongest DeBuffer/Buffer/Healer in the entire game? |
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost?
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While I don't have the numbers to prove that Defender's need to be boosted, the numbers themselves do prove a different point.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
When you go to make a defender the in game text refers to Ranged Damage Strength as: MEDIUM. Typically in the game, when the strength of a power set is listed at the levels of LOW, MEDIUM, and HIGH, there is an expectation of about 30% difference between each. A Power that is Low rated will have be around 70%-50% less effective / powerful than the same power with a High Rating.
However, when you actually start comparing damage to damage on direct powers such as Ice Blast, Psi Blast, Archery, or Electrical Blast, outside of the Nukes which are within the 30% range of medium damage, Defenders actual base damage is 50%-60% down.
Case in point: At level 50 Snap Shot and Aimed Shot do 52 and 82 base points of damage on Blasters, but only 24 and 36 base points on a defender.
At level 50 on Electric Blast, a Defender's Charged Bolts and Lighting Bolt powers do 36 and 59 base points of damage. Blasters do 62 and 102 base points of damage for the same power.
What happens then is an expectation on the player's part that Defenders will be more powerful. One of the questions that is often overlooked, and I don't think I've ever seen a Developer answer, is whether or not the defender damage value of MEDIUM was given for the damage that can be achieved with the primary powers that can be utilized by Defender, rather than just on the values of the secondary powers themselves.
If the developers would simply modify the text on the Defender to state LOW for the Ranged Damage rating, this might solve several of the perceived problems with the Archtype.
Aside from Vigilance earning it's name of Negligence
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I don't have an issue with vigilance, but this is how I feel ever single these threads pop up. I have yet to see any one show that defenders underperforming. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
You can make some combinations that synergize greatly or some that make soloing harder. But in the end, they ALL can solo.
I don't know why soloing ever comes into this either. Defenders are great in teams. That is there balance for the soloing.
The OP even states defenders aren't made for soloing. I can't see how adding an end red to slotting or use IO's and frankenslot end red with something else in a mixed IO is overkill. That is news to me.
Add in the fact like my emp def has a power with end recovery, so does my kin, my cold gets end back, as does my D3 from the epic pool. Rad gets AM for some recovery too. Managing END is part of the game.
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While I'm not sure how to prove they need an boost. But, Every other archetype gets an inherent power that does something. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
Vigilence doesn't really do anything.
Either you have slotted correctly for your endurance usage when Vigilence isn't doing anything or you haven't. As someone else said, if I've slotted correctly, I've pretended I don't have Vigilence at all and got my endurance recharge high enough, probably by taking Stanima. So that I can burn a lot of endurance doing whatever my Defender does. Thus, when Vigilence kicks in, I'm probably just getting extra Endurance that it is just a waste.
Aside: If you like the current Vigilence mechanic the way it is, what it really needs is a recharge reduction element as well so that the powers you need to save your team are recharging more quickly too. But, while cool, it would be ridiculously over powered. End Aside.
As for for my actual suggestion. I'm not saying that it should mechanically work exactly like Domination. If you've played a Dominator, you almost always have your "Domination Bar" recharged before the actual power recharges. Thus Domination was never really controlled by your attacks, its really controlled by how fast Domination recharges. My suggestion for Vigilence wouldn't need a recharge bar, it would just recharge like any other power.
Vigilence would just be a click power. When you click it you get:
1. The equivalent of a large Break Free so that you can un-mez to save your team
2. A full Endurance Bar
3. Conserve Energy
I'm just saying I think the Defender inherent should do something. I should be able to plan around whatever it does for my normal in game activities. It should help me so that I can slot and pick powers differently. Otherwise its giving me extra endurance at a time when I probably already have enough Endurance and the times when its useful are very limited.
I like this idea. It gives the player a proactive power that makes sense.
I'd take the angle that the Vigilance bar builds off of attacks, though - like Dom - just to make playing it more interesting.
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My response is pretty much the same as Talionis'. Regardless of whether Defenders are underperforming or not Vigilance is pretty much useless. First off it only works if you're on a team (the one place where Defenders definitely don't need help) and secondly it doesn't really do much there. Khelds and Tankers all get inherent powers that only work on a team so that part doesn't bother in and of itself, however I would like to see it doe something useful even if it only does it on a team.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
As for the question of whether Defenders under-perform I'm going to say yes and no. I think that overall they probably are balanced, they do less damage than the other support classes (Corruptors and Controllers) but make up for it with better buffs. The problem is that solo the lower damage makes soloing painful for a lot of Defenders (obviously some powersets solo better than others) while on a team the difference between Defender buffs and the buffs of other support classes isn't really noticeable which means that performance wise playing a Corruptor gives you better solo power without hurting your teaming ability that much. Given that I'd like to see them get something to make soloing easier. I'm not saying a straight damage boost since I think that would make defender heavy teams to good but I'd like to see something done to make it a little easier to solo defenders. Talionis' change would do that by lowering their reliance on break frees and making them able to worry less about endurance slotting freeing up slots for other things (such as more damage). This would be especially useful in the lower levels when slots are scarce and boths your primary and your attacks need them.
Obviously it's usefulness would vary by primary. Force Field and Traps would get less use out of the anti-mez capability for example and kins wouldn't need the end refill at higher levels but overall I think it's decent if something can be done to balance vigilance generation.
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I realize that managing endurance is part of the game. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
I don't have an issue with vigilance, but this is how I feel ever single these threads pop up. I have yet to see any one show that defenders underperforming.
You can make some combinations that synergize greatly or some that make soloing harder. But in the end, they ALL can solo. I don't know why soloing ever comes into this either. Defenders are great in teams. That is there balance for the soloing. The OP even states defenders aren't made for soloing. I can't see how adding an end red to slotting or use IO's and frankenslot end red with something else in a mixed IO is overkill. That is news to me. Add in the fact like my emp def has a power with end recovery, so does my kin, my cold gets end back, as does my D3 from the epic pool. Rad gets AM for some recovery too. Managing END is part of the game. |
First off intelligently managing Endurance is my reason for saying that Vigilence is a broken Inherent power right now. I think Vigilence currenlty is a non-power, that you basically have to pretend you don't have and then it will give you extra Endurance in emergency situations. Which may or may not be helpful, but if you have slotted properly you'll have enough endurance all the time regardless.
I chose to give Defenders an endurance boost, instead of damage or anything else because
1. It is what Vigilence already is supposed to do, help with Endurance management. My suggestion is basically the same description of the current Vigilence, only as a click power you control it so you can use it regardless of what the situation for your team is.
2. The Powersets that have tools to help them with Endurance are Kinetics, Radiation, and Cold, probably the three most popular and successful Defender secondaries. People will still make Kinetic, Cold, and Rad toons even if Defenders have access to more Endurance help.
3. The Powersets that help with Endurance also help their team with Endurance. My vigilence mechanic only helps the Defenders with Endurance. So the powers like Transference still have a real use to the rest of the team.
4. Even powers like Conserve Power and Stanima still require thought into Endurance Management. Conserve Power itself is not an answer to all your Endurance issues and it will not let every toon skip Stanima.
5. I think too many toons currently take Fitness for Stanima and feel its "required" to be good. This would give at least Defenders a better chance to build without Stanima.
6. Solo this will help Defenders. Defenders have to use Endurance in Debuff powers that have high endurance cost because those powers were built to protect the whole team. Defender mitigation powers generally use more endurance than other toons. Also Defenders have to use more attacks than other toons to defeat an enemy because their damage is less. Having more Endurance will allow them to defeat enemies by wittling them down.
After going Rogue, this will also make the choice between Corrupters and Defenders more meaningful. Comparing Scourge which will help provide more damage with Vigilence which would provide more endurance. I love Defenders, but I would most likely start making Corrupters since the pluses of Defenders won't line up with the Pluses of Corrupters.
Inherents normally do something. Fury for Brutes. Criticals on Scrappers, Containment on Controllers. Scourge for Corrupters. Guantlet is a huge benefit to Tanks. Defenders are really the only Archetype without an inherent power that helps the toon do its job in the game.
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Please, please, please no more click powers. We click enough already.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Vigilence would just be a click power.
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When you click it you get: 1. The equivalent of a large Break Free so that you can un-mez to save your team 2. A full Endurance Bar 3. Conserve Energy |
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| I'm just saying I think the Defender inherent should do something. |
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| I should be able to plan around whatever it does for my normal in game activities. It should help me so that I can slot and pick powers differently. Otherwise its giving me extra endurance at a time when I probably already have enough Endurance and the times when its useful are very limited. |
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And Rad (AM) and Empathy (recover aura)|
Originally Posted by Talionis
2. The Powersets that have tools to help them with Endurance are Kinetics, Radiation, and Cold, probably the three most popular and successful Defender secondaries. People will still make Kinetic, Cold, and Rad toons even if Defenders have access to more Endurance help.
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Three out of the four APP's also have end management tools. (power sink, conserve power and dark consumption_
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Having a End discount when the team is in trouble and I can help lets me do my job.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Defenders are really the only Archetype without an inherent power that helps the toon do its job in the game.
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As for GR, I don't believe the sky is falling on defenders. People will play what they want.
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Why should anyone need to prove that? Do you think that Edison had to prove that candles and lamps were underperforming when he invented the lightbulb? Do you think Thomas Crapper had to prove that holes in the ground were sub par when he invented the toilet? Did Martin Luther King have to prove that segregation was unfair when he decided to fight for change? The answer is no to all of the above. If something can be improved (especially something like this which would NOT drastically alter the way Defenders play), why shouldn't the developers make it better? The argument of "We're doing just fine" could've been made by society in any of the situations I described earlier but the fact that things were improved actually did change the quality of life for everyone involved for the better. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
The point is, yes, defenders are doing well as support archetypes already. But we could make them better at their jobs (both on teams and solo) without tipping the scales to some level of uberness that's unfair to the game. Vigilance, in my opinion, is not particularly useful when compared to inherents like Containment, Fury, Domination, Critical Hits, or even the VEATs' inherents. Thus, to give Defenders an equally powerful inherent to give players yet another reason to enjoy them, Vigilance probably should be buffed up to give Defenders more reliable (if not simply more) endurance recovery.
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Now thats the judgment call isn't it ?|
Originally Posted by kahuna1
The point is, yes, defenders are doing well as support archetypes already. But we could make them better at their jobs (both on teams and solo) without tipping the scales to some level of uberness that's unfair to the game. |
Right now, the Devs still view Defenders as the most balanced AT (Herocon comments). Any shift in their effectiveness is going to be under close scrutiny.
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That is another reason, why I don't think the answer to fixing the Defender inherent is an increase in damage. I just want the inherent to work in a good and balanced way.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Now thats the judgment call isn't it ?
Right now, the Devs still view Defenders as the most balanced AT (Herocon comments). Any shift in their effectiveness is going to be under close scrutiny. |
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Because the devs are limited to what works within the content of game. It has nothing to do with civilization changes like a light bulb. They make a change that goes too far and player will scream and shout when they nerf. They go too little and players will scream and shout that the devs didn't do it right.|
Originally Posted by kahuna1
why shouldn't the developers make it better?
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If the devs feel the AT fits just right where they expect it within the game, then why change? What hole or issue are they fixing? Soloing...for an AT that shines in teams?
Can defenders solo? Most definitely.
But, my emp def does not solo as fast as my 2 scrappers. So if I want a fast soloing toon, I would make a scrapper. Why does a defender have to solo the same as all the other ATs? The other ATs, like a tanker or controller early on, don't solo as fast, but they can.
From my reading of the devs when they make changes, they have not routinely gave free buffs to ATs without a balance. To me, the dom changes are the best example. Changes in the blaster and stalker ATs were a performance issue. And this is why they need to prove it. Otherwise, IMO, the devs will balance any buff they give to defenders with something we may not want.
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I believe that Arcanaville has done something "like" that. The performance issue isn't that defenders do too little damage but rather that defenders use too much endurance dealing the damage that they do.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Adeon and Talionis:
I sort of agree that Vigilance is a nonpower (well, sometimes it helps, but I agree that those are unpredictable moments and rare ones. ) However, to replace Vigilance with a power that improves Defender performance, shouldn't you first prove that Defenders need a performance boost? |
As Talionis and other have pointed out vigilence doesn't solve this issue for the defender AT as a whole. Defender primaries that assist the team by eliminating incoming damage either through defense or resistance buffs or by reducing the damage enemies inflict by debuffing damage or accuracy are at a distinct disadvantage when compared to defenders that repair damage after it has been inflicted.
Team size and player skill also make a large difference where vigilence is concerned and we all know that for "some unknown reason" the defender relaxes that vigilence while solo......
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Talionis makes a really good point about slotting and Vigilance.
You can't really count on Vigilance when you plan your slots - no-one want to suddenly have end issues because a FF Defender has joined the team, for example. You want to plan your powers and slots so that you can cope when the team isnt getting damaged, thus when Vigilance kicks in you probably don't need it.
This is different from not slotting for damage because of Scourge. Full damage slotting and Scourge combine with each other for a cumulative effect, whereas having enough endurance and then having some more doesnt really provide much of a bonus. You could maybe turn Sprint on? I guess you could argue it would allow you to run all three Leadership toggles if Vigilance is cranking, but only run one or two if it isn't. Some builds its almost impossible to slot for constant full performance, some it is.
As for Defenders underperforming, player generated statistics on these boards have shown Defenders are the least played archetype heroside, particulalry in the 20-40 range. I don't know what datamining by the developers would show.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Because the devs are limited to what works within the content of game. It has nothing to do with civilization changes like a light bulb. They make a change that goes too far and player will scream and shout when they nerf. They go too little and players will scream and shout that the devs didn't do it right.
If the devs feel the AT fits just right where they expect it within the game, then why change? What hole or issue are they fixing? Soloing...for an AT that shines in teams? Can defenders solo? Most definitely. But, my emp def does not solo as fast as my 2 scrappers. So if I want a fast soloing toon, I would make a scrapper. Why does a defender have to solo the same as all the other ATs? The other ATs, like a tanker or controller early on, don't solo as fast, but they can. From my reading of the devs when they make changes, they have not routinely gave free buffs to ATs without a balance. To me, the dom changes are the best example. Changes in the blaster and stalker ATs were a performance issue. And this is why they need to prove it. Otherwise, IMO, the devs will balance any buff they give to defenders with something we may not want. |
What I'm saying is it's a quality of life issue. I know that Defenders are completely capable of functioning as soloers, AND that the Developers are comfortable with the way they perform now. However, that doesn't mean that we, as players, are satisfied. Don't get me wrong, I don't want the Defenders to be blown out of proportion. All I want is for the inherent to be given a boost to bring it on par with the other ATs. They aren't gimped, but they aren't perfect either. Though giving Defenders a better inherent may lead to some repercussions (such as increased endurance costs), it should be done because it gives them a powerful and memorable inherent that sets them apart from Corr's and MM's and Trollers by giving them the added level of endurance management from the get-go that others will not have.
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Here's an idea... let's give defenders, wait, let's give everyone TWICE AS MUCH DAMAGE! That's like Edison, Thomas Crapper and Martin Luther King all wrapped into one!
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Originally Posted by kahuna1
Why should anyone need to prove that? Do you think that Edison had to prove that candles and lamps were underperforming when he invented the lightbulb? Do you think Thomas Crapper had to prove that holes in the ground were sub par when he invented the toilet? Did Martin Luther King have to prove that segregation was unfair when he decided to fight for change? The answer is no to all of the above. If something can be improved (especially something like this which would NOT drastically alter the way Defenders play), why shouldn't the developers make it better? The argument of "We're doing just fine" could've been made by society in any of the situations I described earlier but the fact that things were improved actually did change the quality of life for everyone involved for the better.
[...] |
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Umm, Defenders are, based on their description, supposed to have better buff/debuff and damage than Controllers. They are buff/debuff primary and damage secondary. Controllers are control primary and buff/debuff secondary with no damage focus at all.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
As for the question of whether Defenders under-perform I'm going to say yes and no. I think that overall they probably are balanced, they do less damage than the other support classes (Corruptors and Controllers) but make up for it with better buffs.
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It used to be that Controllers were expected to be even more reliant on teams than Defenders since Controllers had no damage focus at all, so it's almost odd that you accept Controllers as having superior damage as a matter of course.
i suspect that on average that Controller and Defender damage aren't that far apart, from what i recall Defenders on average can actually put out slightly better damage, but Controllers can use their damage with far greater safety, which means they can deal far more damage for the risks they take.
i've played both Defenders and Controllers to 50. My Controllers overall solo faster than my Defenders, and both do about equally on teams.
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i make stuff...
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Outside of fire controllers this is certainly not a given.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
It used to be that Controllers were expected to be even more reliant on teams than Defenders since Controllers had no damage focus at all, so it's almost odd that you accept Controllers as having superior damage as a matter of course.
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Last time (or maybe the time before) we had this debate I did the numbers for a ice controller versus a /ice defender.
The Defender easily came out ahead, even without factoring in the larger buffs from the primary.
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@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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The basic suggestion of making defenders an archetype that has near infinite endurance is cool, but as usual I disagree with the reasoning behind the complaints with current vigilance. In this case the reasoning seems to be: "It's cool having infinite endurance when my team is in trouble, but when everything's going fine I don't seem to have enough" To rephrase this, this is basically saying "I want to do better in the situations in which my team is untouchable"
I think in this case the complaint is one of general annoyance, and not of archetype balance. If that's the case though, then it needs a solution that reflects it. If enough people are annoyed by the binary nature of vigilance going between doing nothing and making it so you can spam all your powers, then the solution is to make the curve smoother. Have vigilance give a small boost based on number of teammates and max out at a significant, but not ridiculous, value if a teammate is dead.
I hate Vigilence as an Archetype power.
Yes it does almost nothing.
But even worse it makes it impossible to slot correctly. Sometimes on teams I have no problems at all with Endurance. I'm running fine. Then I solo or the team does better and all my powers drain me to the ground. It's impossible to slot Defenders for Endurance reduction in the powers. Its either overkill or never enough.
My suggestion... make Defenders the one Archetype that barely has to worry about endurance.
Use the mechanic from Domination. Instead of mez protection, have it work like a Break Free that way even if you are Mezed you can use this power as a one time wake up to try to save your team. Have it fill up your Endurance bar and have it cast Conserve power. Make it so its hard, but not impossible to Perma Vigilence just like Domination.
That's it done. Nothing else.
The idea is that when their teamates are in trouble the Defenders can pull into their reserves break mez's and use their powers to save their teamates.
Conserve Power blows as a power. But it would allow many builds to skip the Fitness chain. Which yes, I know all Archetypes can skip Stanima, especially now that we have IO's, but it would make it a little simplier. My Defenders are also the toons that I usually want to take more pool powers on anyway.
I know Power Mastery has Conserve Power in its Epic, let it stack with your vigilence version of conserve power much like Aim and Build Up do.
Its funny but now that Domination doesn't have a damage component, I realize its probably much closer to the inherent power that a Defender should have and not a Dominator.
It would help solo, which Defenders weren't made for, but would still help it without drastically changing Defender balance.
The biggest thing is that a power like Domination can be planned around whether you are solor or on a team. Whether your team is doing great or doing pourly. It would let us be intelligent about our slotting which is the most important part of the whole equation.