Please replace Vigilence inherent with something that lets us slot intelligently
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-16 08:55 in Defenders
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Well the problem with this argument is that Defenders are one of the few ATs where you could claim to slot based on their inherent at all.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And I think this is what our difference is. For me, I don't slot any AT I have based on its inherent power. For defenders, an inherent power based on teaming for an AT designed for teaming is common sense to me at least. If a player wants to solo, there are some defenders that can solo better than other defenders. But even then, there are ATs that are designed to solo much more efficiently than defenders.
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The ones that can't at all:
Blasters, Controllers, Scrappers, Stalkers, Masterminds, Corruptors and Brutes all get bonus damage. Since this bonus is not limited by ED and more damage is always good there's no reason not to ED cap damage and add this bonus to it.
HEATs get more damage (always good), more recharge slow resistance, and more damage resistance based on their team. In general they won't be hitting the caps on these so slotting for the inherent is pointless (the exception would be perma-eclipse warshades but they can't really tune the damage resistance that tightly anyway).
The ones that can:
VEATs have a power that basically provides a static bonus which people can and do take it into account when deciding if their character has enough regeneration and recovery. You might end up with a person choosing a different set since he has enough regen/recovery but it would be rare.
Tankers can slot taunt into their attacks to improve their inherent, but few chose to take the option since their inherent is strong enough without slotting
Dominators have perma-doms, need I say more?
So, out of 14 ATs only 5 can do any slotting related to their inherent and of them only two (Defenders and Dominators) would really get any benefit from doing so. The major difference between the Defender inherent and all other ATs is that as Talionis said Endurance is one place you can have to much of a good thing. With most other stats more is always better, sure you have the ED cap which means that you're frequently better off trading a small amount of one thing for a large amount of another but in general until you hit the actual cap more is always better.
Endurance this isn't the case, you need enough to keep your blue bar reasonably full so that you can use powers but after that any endurance related slotting is of no benefit to you.
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| So I can't see where there is an issue. If a player really has END problems, that player can look at a different way - like an IO unique or set bonus or 2 SO end red instead of one - and work back to a level where END use fits their playstyle. |
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| And to clarify since it may not be clear, from my experience on the forums and reading why the devs make changes, I can't see how a buff to this AT will not be balanced with something else, especially without any data to show they are underperforming. |
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I hadn't looked at it that way (since I have little interest in playing buffing defenders) but yeah that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Actually it is a form of compensation for the buffer since most of the buffing sets have powers that they can't use while solo because they can't be used on the caster. Also some of the debuffing ATs have area targetted debuffs, like Disruption Arrow, Tar patch, Sleet, Freezing rain etc, that could be used this way.
For example Empathy's healing Aura with ED capped rech slotting and cast time is about 6 seconds. The best an empath could get from rocking the aura would be 2 buffs, maybe 3 on a high recharge build. So keep in mind while figuring that even buffers won't be easily able to maintain a full set of 5 buffs, and the resultant benefits outside of a combat type situation. High end defender IO builds all ready are nasty. This doesn't make them that much nastier and still pales in comparison to a high end IO'd Scrapper, Brute, Tank, Dominator, or Blaster. |
Penny,
What you are basically saying is that Defenders have almost no inherent power, currently. I don't think I'm suggesting a "buff" to Defenders so much as fixing a broken inherent power.
After going Rogue comes out, I will probably only make Corrupters, not Defenders. I think that the slight drop in buff power for Corrupters is more than offset by the increased attack power and Scourge inherent.
I expect as soon as Going Rogue comes out many people will stop making new Defenders and the numbers will bare this out.
Seeing as all other Archetypes have inherent powers that do something that actually helps the Archetype, I'd say the inherent power is underperforming.
I think my suggestion basically would not take any real re-balancing of the Defender Archetype, most of the other suggestions such as Increased Damage, Mez Protection, and Reduced Recharge times all would require massive re-balancing of the Archetype.
I'm basically trying to figure out what inherent would give people a reason to choose Defenders over Corrupters without tons of rebalancing. I also think the current inherent is not working in an effective way for Defenders.
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Maybe I am missing the point that some defender primaries have ways to restore/recover END as well in the epics. So, if END is an issue, the game gives ways to compensate. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Endurance this isn't the case, you need enough to keep your blue bar reasonably full so that you can use powers but after that any endurance related slotting is of no benefit to you.
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| You are missing the point. It's not that Defenders can't slot for adequate endurance management it's that if we do so Vigilance is useless and if we slot so that we get some benefit from Vigilance we get punished for doing our job and defending the team. |
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| Maybe, but that is no reason not to discuss it. |
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Vigilance is probably designed for low level defenders when they easily run out of endurance. Vigilance does serve a purpose. However, after stamina and slotting SO, the role of vigilance diminished. I agree that vigilance can be made better.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
When Vigilence gives me Endurance if I don't use that Endurance, I've wasted it, because I would've recovered Endurance anyway.
In other words Vigilence gives me too options: 1. Slot for Endurance and manage my Endurance like Vigilence isn't there. Having too much Endurance when Vigilence kicks in. Thus Vigilence really does nothing. 2. Don't slot for Endurance and only have enough Endurance when Vigilence kicks in. |
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Originally Posted by Talionis
My suggestion... make Defenders the one Archetype that barely has to worry about endurance.
Use the mechanic from Domination. Instead of mez protection, have it work like a Break Free that way even if you are Mezed you can use this power as a one time wake up to try to save your team. Have it fill up your Endurance bar and have it cast Conserve power. Make it so its hard, but not impossible to Perma Vigilence just like Domination. |
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Originally Posted by Talionis
Penny,
What you are basically saying is that Defenders have almost no inherent power, currently. I don't think I'm suggesting a "buff" to Defenders so much as fixing a broken inherent power. After going Rogue comes out, I will probably only make Corrupters, not Defenders. I think that the slight drop in buff power for Corrupters is more than offset by the increased attack power and Scourge inherent. I expect as soon as Going Rogue comes out many people will stop making new Defenders and the numbers will bare this out. Seeing as all other Archetypes have inherent powers that do something that actually helps the Archetype, I'd say the inherent power is underperforming. I think my suggestion basically would not take any real re-balancing of the Defender Archetype, most of the other suggestions such as Increased Damage, Mez Protection, and Reduced Recharge times all would require massive re-balancing of the Archetype. I'm basically trying to figure out what inherent would give people a reason to choose Defenders over Corrupters without tons of rebalancing. I also think the current inherent is not working in an effective way for Defenders. |
Talionis,
I believe in the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it." saying. You may say it is broken, I don't see it as broken. That is our opinions and up to the devs, with their data, to say it is broken. If it is determined to be broken, then fix it and I would be happy. If it is shown that defenders are performing at or in excess of expections for the game, then why change?
As for the GR, that is your speculation. IMO only, I consider that to be the comment of a min/maxer. I am not implying you personally are a min/maxer, but I have been around enough to know teams that only care to work at 100% peak performance would take a corruptor over defender. If I am on or not on those teams, there are plenty of other teams. I am opposite on you in this in that people will play what they want, for no reason or any reason.
Lastly, I view defenders as overpowered. Maybe that is why we have the inherent we have, to balance us to the other ATs. I appreciate I could have a minority, if not unique
, point of view.
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This important point may be a roadblock in its own right in getting the inherant changed. Defender primaries have such a drastic difference from each other that it's hard to find something that benefits them all equally.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
The problem is that there are 2 different types of defenders, buffers and debuffers. (H34l0rs are actually buffing defenders) the inherent needs to benefit all defender ATs equally or at least equitably. Current vigilance doesn't do that nor does your suggestion since FF/ and Sonic/ defenders get mez protection and grant it to their team.
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Vigilance's benefit shouldn't be anything that would benefit one particular defender power set or other. With that in mind I have always said that vigilance should give the defender a 5% global reduction in endurance costs and a 5% increase in global recharge each time the defender activates a primary or secondary power. The vigilance buff should stack up to 5 times and each 5% buff should last for 10-15 seconds. That doesn't give any particular defender Power set a distinct advantage from vigilance it's fairly even across the board. The more aware you are and the more you buff and blast the better and more vigilant a defender you are. |
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I find this interesting in light of the next comment: |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
IMO only, I consider that to be the comment of a min/maxer. I am not implying you personally are a min/maxer, but I have been around enough to know teams that only care to work at 100% peak performance would take a corruptor over defender.
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| Lastly, I view defenders as overpowered. Maybe that is why we have the inherent we have, to balance us to the other ATs. |
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Yes, you can slot or take powers so that you don't have endurance issues, no one is arguing that. The problem is that Vigilance is giving me a buff that I can't take advantage of. When I design a defender I have to assume that I'm soloing (or on a team at full health) and design my build around that. If I don't then I'm going to be constantly running out of endurance. Given that what use is Vigilance? If I'm solo or on a good team then it's not providing any benefit but that's ok because I've designed my build to account for it. If I'm on a team that is doing poorly then it's giving me an endurance cost reduction but I DON'T NEED IT because I've designed my build to not have endurance problems.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Maybe I am missing the point that some defender primaries have ways to restore/recover END as well in the epics. So, if END is an issue, the game gives ways to compensate.
I didn't miss any point. Again, you can change slotting. If too much, change it around. Too little, change it back. I am also curious if I missed the boat on slotting end red in all my defender powers, too. I don't have the slots to do so. We would get benefits from vigilance then. |
I think at this point we might as well agree to disagree. It seems that the crux of our disagreement is that I'm irritated by the fact that Vigilance is giving me a buff that I can't take advantage of and this doesn't bother you.
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Agreed! |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think at this point we might as well agree to disagree. It seems that the crux of our disagreement is that I'm irritated by the fact that Vigilance is giving me a buff that I can't take advantage of and this doesn't bother you.
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I think a better option might be to keep to bonus static and increase the buff duration for long recharge powers but even so I'm not sure it's necessary. Maintaining Vigilance would be more about activation times than recharge times and as long as you have a decent attack chain to fill in the gaps the recharges on your primary won't matter a whole lot. Sets with short recharge powers will be using them for Vigilance while those with longer ones will use attacks.
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Actually, I'd argue that Traps would be at a distinct disadvantage since it has long recharge times on a lot of its moves. While any form of inherant global recharge buff seems like it would be heavily scrutinized by the devs, I think there's a better way to implement your idea. Rather than a static 5% buff for each move used, make the amount of the buff scale up or down based upon the default recharge time of the power with a static buff that is reapplied for toggles. This way you can use a few longer recharging powers or constantly blast with your secondary to build up your inherant.
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I think it comes down to perception only. Corruptors have scourge, thus more damage. On the teams I have experienced, damage>the difference between defender and corruptor in de/buffing. These numbers are crunched all the time. You know DPS. You know the percent de/buffing. So, a team that believes damage "is king" will take a corruptor to shave off those few moments more for maximum efficiency. |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
I find this interesting in light of the next comment:
Pending on the primary and secondary, would min/maxers really pick a corruptor over a defender? Wouldn't there be situations where higher strength buffs and debuffs be preferred over more direct damage? I think the main thing a min/maxer post-GR would prefer would be a mixed defender/corruptor team for a combination of strong buffs and debuffs with more damage. I don't think it'll be the min/maxers who'll shrug off defenders but rather it'll be soloists who previously avoided redside for their various reasons. |
I don't think anything will happen in GR. I see people play ATs and powerset combos that they want to play. They are not perfect or the best, but they are happy.
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This has been argued back and forth and I tend to agree that you'll still see Defenders being played and people aren't going to discriminate then.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
I think it comes down to perception only. Corruptors have scourge, thus more damage. On the teams I have experienced, damage>the difference between defender and corruptor in de/buffing. These numbers are crunched all the time. You know DPS. You know the percent de/buffing. So, a team that believes damage "is king" will take a corruptor to shave off those few moments more for maximum efficiency.
I don't think anything will happen in GR. I see people play ATs and powerset combos that they want to play. They are not perfect or the best, but they are happy. |
But on the other hand, the difference between them in the team support role is minimal and solo Corruptors higher damage makes thing a lot easier. Given that I think a lot of players will choose to make Corruptors since they can support the team while having better solo capability than a Defender.
To put it in perspective. I would rather have a single Break Free on a click with a five minute timer than the current Vigilence; I think the current Vigilence is that worthless.
Penny, you are 100% right if my build has endurance issues, I can both slot differently or pick powers out of most of the Epics to solve it. But that makes Vigilence all the more worthless. Since I have options that are far more consistant to build into my toons I'll choose to use those and ignore the current Vigilence. But because Vigilence is not a consistent power, I have to take powers and use slots to make sure that I don't have Endurance issues. So when I get a benefit from Vigilence its most likely just sitting in my Endurance tank wasted. Thus, Vigilence does nothing.
I honestly don't think Teams will pick Corrupters over Defenders so much as players will pick Corrupters over Defenders. I'm not going to rebuild any of my Defenders; I've put too much time into them to simply start over. In the sense of picking teams, normally you can't be choosie enough to say oh no, I'm only looking for Corrupters not Defenders.
I'm saying, "Most, not all, players will create Corrupters and move them Red Side instead of starting new Defenders." Thematically, the two Archetypes are identical. You can get the same almost the same power sets in either Defender or Corrupter. So, if my toon idea could pick between either a Defender or a Corrupter, I'm going to pick Corrupters because they have more going for them.
Am I a min/maxer, eh kind of. I like to play what I like to play, not because it is necissarially strong. But I do spend a lot of time making toons like my Trick Arrow/Dark as good as I can. I don't think Trick Arrow/Dark is the best Defender out there, but I like it. I have a great backstory for the toon. But I do spend time figuring out which powers will make it most survivable and what slots to put into it.
I don't think Defenders are underperforming now, but they don't have any competition now. When Going Rogue comes out there will be direct competition between Corrupters and Defenders and I'd like to see some more 'character' given to Defenders in a small rework, not buff, to their inherent power. So that it better distinguishes the choice between Defenders and Corrupters. This would give me a playstyle reason to choose one over the other.
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That sounds inherently unbalanced.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Actually it does. You get the benefit for 15 seconds after you activate the toggle. So Dark defenders, Rads, FF etc. get that benefit every time they turn the toggle on. After it's on they can still activate other powers to stack the buffs and the 5% end reduction from activating other powers make the toggles cheaper to run.
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| Also granting status protection isn't the way to go. Taking the sleep hole out of FF/ or Sonic/ would run contrary to dev history. Adding status protection to vigilance provides no benefit to the FF/ or Sonic/ which all ready have grantable status protection that is useable on self. Vigilance needs to benefit all power sets at least equitably. |
The protection offered by FF and Sonic really doesn't compare, as when those powers are active they provide continuous protection for everyone within radius for hold, immob, and disorient. They are team buff powers, they don't restore end, and they don't provide temporary status protection against fear, sleep, confuse, and slow. At the same time, being a temporary effect that only occurs when the Vig bar is filled, you're not removing any sleep, fear, confuse, or slow holes; the holes are still there most of the time.
If you're concerned about "perma-Vig," keep in mind that's only a problem if the devs code it such that perma-Vig is possible. The devs will have control over how fast Vig builds, how long the status protection lasts, and how fast Vig recharges, so they would have considerable ability to balance the power out.
As I see it, this "Dom version" of Vigilance would give the def player a modest edge in those circumstances where the fighting has been heavy and someone needs to rise to the occasion to save the team, or where the def player is soloing and may occasionally dig deep within for additional strength to do battle. It also encourages def players to build out and use their secondary powers in order to gain this benefit.
Ok, the real issue is that people belive that Defenders should be able to carry a 8 man team on there back.This is not the reality of Defender class at all.
Iv seen a Defender get booted off of a team, for not keeping someone alive, or because of a team wipe.Since he was the only Defender on a +4/8 mission team, id say they where a bit hard on him, and had to high of exspectations that he was supposed to miraculously just save the team from being destroyed.That, and the fact the 2 Blasters and 1 Scrapper decided to Tank the mission, made it even harder on the Defender.
This poor guy was even yelled at by the leader and others on the team for firing off a couple AoE attacks inbetween heal cycles.(EMP/Elec build)
I personally thought the Defender played his role very well.It was the fact that the mission was to hard for just 1 Defender to handle a entire team, especially when that team demands way more then a Defender can give.
As for soloing, I dont have any issues soloing on a Defender, and to be totally honest, I feel that Defenders are the most balanced ATs in the entire game.They arent Tilted in 1 direction or another.They do everything well, not exceedingly well or excellent, but good enough, and as i play my Dark/Dark Defender, I find it more fun then other sets.That and the fact that iv solo'd for the last 4 days, and have hit lvl 29 just last night, makes me belive that most people arnt the Defender Type.(playing only a few hours a day, not all day like the youngsters.)
My favorite AT in the game is a Defender, and most of my toons are, Defenders.
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I'm not quite sure why you brought this example up as no one is really suggesting an inherent that would allow for a defender to make 4x8 for a team fighting well above their means doable. For those that like Vigilence the way it is that's fine for them, however I think most of us are looking for an inherent that is more present then the one we have now that shows up only once in a blue moon and only while teamed. I'd love to see a Vigilence 2.0 where Defenders get endurance discounts on primary powers and maybe a small recharge bonus. The less energy the defender has to spend while things are going well, the more they can spend when things go bad(For those of you who love current vigilence). While the rest of us can also enjoy the fact that the powers we use to defend our teams or ourself if solo can be used more often to keep the team safe.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Ok, the real issue is that people belive that Defenders should be able to carry a 8 man team on there back.This is not the reality of Defender class at all.
Iv seen a Defender get booted off of a team, for not keeping someone alive, or because of a team wipe.Since he was the only Defender on a +4/8 mission team, id say they where a bit hard on him, and had to high of exspectations that he was supposed to miraculously just save the team from being destroyed.That, and the fact the 2 Blasters and 1 Scrapper decided to Tank the mission, made it even harder on the Defender. This poor guy was even yelled at by the leader and others on the team for firing off a couple AoE attacks inbetween heal cycles.(EMP/Elec build) I personally thought the Defender played his role very well.It was the fact that the mission was to hard for just 1 Defender to handle a entire team, especially when that team demands way more then a Defender can give. As for soloing, I dont have any issues soloing on a Defender, and to be totally honest, I feel that Defenders are the most balanced ATs in the entire game.They arent Tilted in 1 direction or another.They do everything well, not exceedingly well or excellent, but good enough, and as i play my Dark/Dark Defender, I find it more fun then other sets.That and the fact that iv solo'd for the last 4 days, and have hit lvl 29 just last night, makes me belive that most people arnt the Defender Type.(playing only a few hours a day, not all day like the youngsters.) My favorite AT in the game is a Defender, and most of my toons are, Defenders. |
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I'd love to see Defenders get Scourge |
Originally Posted by MagicalAct
I'd love to see a Vigilence 2.0 where Defenders get endurance discounts on primary powers and maybe a small recharge bonus.
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Hey, I can dream can't I?
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Vigilant: (adjective) alertly watchful especially to avoid danger.
All right, now that we have map indicators for escortable NPCs, how about changing Vigilance so that it functions as radar, showing the locations of hostages, glowies and boss-level or higher enemies? Perhaps it could be charged up, similar to Domination or Fury and give greater range or more frequent "pings" as it reached its maximum.
I'm not advocating a full-function radar as in the Metal Gear Solid games, and any type of enemy-detecting radar could be a problem in PvP.
Eh... maybe Defenders could just get the old Defiance. Blasters aren't using it anymore 
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Ha. Maybe you missed the part when I said |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Here's an idea... let's give defenders, wait, let's give everyone TWICE AS MUCH DAMAGE! That's like Edison, Thomas Crapper and Martin Luther King all wrapped into one!
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| I don't want the Defenders to be blown out of proportion. All I want is for the inherent to be given a boost to bring it on par with the other ATs. |
Edit: This.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I don't think Defenders are underperforming now, but they don't have any competition now. When Going Rogue comes out there will be direct competition between Corrupters and Defenders and I'd like to see some more 'character' given to Defenders in a small rework, not buff, to their inherent power. So that it better distinguishes the choice between Defenders and Corrupters. This would give me a playstyle reason to choose one over the other. |
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Yes, and there's a reason for that |
Originally Posted by Godpants
Eh... maybe Defenders could just get the old Defiance. Blasters aren't using it anymore
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They both operate on the principle that the usefulness of the inherent should be tied to the diminishing of friendly health bars? (Personal or teammate.)|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes, and there's a reason for that
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i still like the suggestion of giving Defenders a discount on DPE, like Arcanaville suggested, even if they are the only blueside AT to have never received a damage buff.
Which would, if anything, further marginalize the importance of the Defender inherent.
But i still tend to agree with the theory many on the forums proposed when Vigilance was first added: The Devs felt that Defenders were already properly balanced, and Vigilance was added so that Defenders wouldn't complain about not having an inherent. (The Devs later stating that Defenders were considered the most balanced class as is pretty much confirmed that theory for many players.)
Will i remake some of my Defenders as Corruptors when GR comes out? Maybe, but it won't be because i don't like Defenders anymore, it'll just be that Scourge and putting damage first fits their concept better.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I don't necessarily disagree that Defenders are balanced in relation to the Blueside ATs and as a Buff/Damage they are good (although some controllers can give them a run for their money) but I don't think that they are balanced in relation to Corruptors and with Going Rogue this will become more obvious.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
But i still tend to agree with the theory many on the forums proposed when Vigilance was first added: The Devs felt that Defenders were already properly balanced, and Vigilance was added so that Defenders wouldn't complain about not having an inherent. (The Devs later stating that Defenders were considered the most balanced class as is pretty much confirmed that theory for many players.)
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Finally I'll note that Vigilance was introduced between Issues 5 and 6. Even given that Defenders were balanced without needing an inherent THEN the game has changed a lot in the ten issues since then so i'm not convinced that is still the case.
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i won't argue with that, but what really needs to be done is convincing the Devs, and by convincing the Devs i mean people providing numerical support for a change that is balanced from the Devs' point of view.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't necessarily disagree that Defenders are balanced in relation to the Blueside ATs and as a Buff/Damage they are good (although some controllers can give them a run for their money) but I don't think that they are balanced in relation to Corruptors and with Going Rogue this will become more obvious.
Finally I'll note that Vigilance was introduced between Issues 5 and 6. Even given that Defenders were balanced without needing an inherent THEN the game has changed a lot in the ten issues since then so i'm not convinced that is still the case. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
So I can't see where there is an issue. If a player really has END problems, that player can look at a different way - like an IO unique or set bonus or 2 SO end red instead of one - and work back to a level where END use fits their playstyle.
And to clarify since it may not be clear, from my experience on the forums and reading why the devs make changes, I can't see how a buff to this AT will not be balanced with something else, especially without any data to show they are underperforming.