Please replace Vigilence inherent with something that lets us slot intelligently
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-16 08:55 in Defenders
Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I'm pretty sure that every defender primary but empathy and forcefields can boost damage somehow via + damage or -resistance.
The fact that defenders are "the most balanced archetype" means, realistically, defenders will not get a straight up damage boost, as does their greater weakening/boost ability. As such, if there are overall performance issues I think it's better to look in a different direction and see what could be done to improve the archetype that the game developers might look into.
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That's...actually rather interesting. Sounds like it would actually work as opposed to cries for more damage.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
I just had a thought. The higher damage with support role is claimed by corruptors, the current vigilance only seems to directly benefit healing primaries in their support role, and any sort of boost to support strength/recharge will throw multiple primary's balance out of whack. So what about survival?
The defender, no matter what the primary, is the weak guy around. They make up for this by dipping their friends in awesomesauce or by making enemies twice as pathetic as they, but they are just...weaker. Low health points, lower defenses than what they can provide to allies, and low damage before they get to boosting and weakening. This is what I'd propose: Basically, the harder things get, the harder to finish off or control a defender becomes. It helps all defenders at what they're worst equipped to do: keep themselves alive, and capable of responding. It helps them support the team, as they do that better when they're alive. (And sober) Same for the damage thing. It takes a sidestep for the whole defender/corruptor thing, as it makes the corruptor better at finishing off a fight, while defenders become better at surviving it. Plus I like how it's almost the diametric opposite to scourge. Just a thought.  |
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I don't even remotely think that Defenders are actually balanced against the other archetypes. I like them. I think they are fun. I want them on teams, but I'd just as soon have a Controller or Corrupter. As far as I can tell Defenders get the shaft all the way around.
--- I want to know what Defenders are really good at? Because from what I can tell, Corrupters and Controllers are doing it better. I don't understand why you think they are so balanced. |
As far as Corruptors, I sort of take it at face value that Defenders buff better and Corruptors do more damage. I almost put fault on the devs that some proliferated sets do the exact same thing as opposed to being tweaked to the AT. Case in point, give anything to a Stalker.
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Sonic and Trick Arrow have single target -res, which may not be an issue, but...corruptors have these tools too.|
Originally Posted by Seldom
Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but I'm pretty sure that every defender primary but empathy and forcefields can boost damage somehow via + damage or -resistance.
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| The fact that defenders are "the most balanced archetype" means, realistically, defenders will not get a straight up damage boost, as does their greater weakening/boost ability. As such, if there are overall performance issues I think it's better to look in a different direction and see what could be done to improve the archetype that the game developers might look into. |
And I'm not sure that asking for a buff that won't really help much is going to make things better when you're on teams with two ATs that outperform you instead of just one.
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When I say "most balanced archetype," I'm quoting the devs. I thought that was a good starting point, as they are the ones tweaking things.
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That would make sense IF the developers wanted to shorten the gap between low damage blasters and high damage blasters. Systems for diminishing returns like this one are actually already present in a few areas of the game such as enhancements and recharge equations.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Let's change the perspective on the issue shall we? Let's look at blasters for a second. How much sense would it make if the blaster inherent made it so that the faster your blaster defeats things (due either to increased player skill, higher character level, or to the slotting of beneficial IO set bonuses) the less overall benefit defiance gives.
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In fact, there are already some inherents that act in a way like that example (though in a much less severe way). Scrappers can one shot minions with their more damaging attacks, making criticals useless in that situation.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Vigilance is broken in just that way but in regards to endurance usage rather than damage dealing.... and yes, it needs fixing.
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I am not sure when min/maxing became bad or wrong. I basically have Inherent Envy, because every other archetype has an Inherent power that does something and helps distinguish the planning and playstyle of the toons made in that archetype.
I think it would be nice if the Devs looked at it.
It is not like anyone in the whole thread has really defended the current Vigilence. People just seem to say the Devs wont do anything because the archetype is "balanced".
The other pseudo-defense of changing the current Vigilence is that we might get a nerf.
No one is really defending the currrent inhereent as working.
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Solo a tank.
| am not sure when min/maxing became bad or wrong. I basically have Inherent Envy, because every other archetype has an Inherent power that does something and helps distinguish the planning and playstyle of the toons made in that archetype. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
To be clear, I have no problem with min/maxing or teams that are made to play to a specific strength. The reason I might have brought those situations up is that they are a balancing consideration. If something works well for a casual player, who isn't aware of the ramifications of different strategies and builds, it can work ten times better for someone playing to get the very most out of what they do well.
The devs have to take both sides of the coin into the picture.
Hence, actually, why my earlier suggestion came to mind. The direct fiddling with support or damage can have wildly different repricusions for builds...it makes more sense for develpers to look in different directions, especially when they are happyish with current support/damage values. Where else are they lacking? The ability to have endurance when an ally is in need isn't just it, we've agreed on this. It's a viable altenrative that helps a defender's usefulness without complicating their stance in the company of fellow support archetypes that's being hashed out. I'd just prefer it not be something nerf-worthy, but still useful and different enough to further differentiate my defending from my corrupting.
In addition to solo play, people might also consider how it would work out if a team had more than one def on the team. Also what would happen if you had a team of 8 defs.
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This was actually what I meant by my comment about min/maxed defender teams. If it slightly improves the performance of solo defenders, an 8-member rad/ team will make it game-changing.
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Originally Posted by konshu
In addition to solo play, people might also consider how it would work out if a team had more than one def on the team. Also what would happen if you had a team of 8 defs.
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Game changing for what? Any combination of 8 defenders, controllers, or corruptors will utterly trivialize anything they set out to do right now. This is a red herring.
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Originally Posted by Seldom
This was actually what I meant by my comment about min/maxed defender teams. If it slightly improves the performance of solo doms, an 8-member rad/ team will make it game-changing.
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I have several tanks many of which I solo. I do not see your point. If you are pointing out that Gauntlet does nothing solo, I will grant you that. However, Guantlet does wonderful things for a team and really is a useful inherent. It saves on powers and slots giving yyou more options than just taking the taunt powers. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Solo a tank.
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I dont have a problem with powers that only affect teams, their are plenty of Speed Boost type powers out there.
My problem is the current Vigilence really doesnt do much on a team or solo and is basically a non-power.
Yeah, tankers are strong soloers due to their moderately high damage and extremely high defense. While defenders have some of that defense solo, they don't have the damage. Soloing the two is miles apart.
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Okay, the current inherent is working AS INTENDED, in my opinion. To clear that up no one is defending it. If you can provide numbers that when the team is struggling and you END management changes, you proved me wrong.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
I am not sure when min/maxing became bad or wrong. I basically have Inherent Envy, because every other archetype has an Inherent power that does something and helps distinguish the planning and playstyle of the toons made in that archetype.
I think it would be nice if the Devs looked at it. It is not like anyone in the whole thread has really defended the current Vigilence. People just seem to say the Devs wont do anything because the archetype is "balanced". The other pseudo-defense of changing the current Vigilence is that we might get a nerf. No one is really defending the currrent inhereent as working. |
When some thing is already balanced for the game, there needs to be some justification for a change. The devs have a lot to manage and plan for in future content. If they keep bumping up ATs "just because", then it gets harder to make that new content because all the toons get stronger - hence, why I think any buff would be balanced by something else. I don't want to see a nerf just so I can get some END management options back because I already figured out how to manage my END.
Back to min/maxing, I agree that it is not bad or wrong either. However, when statements are made around the topic that other ATs will be better and that defenders will not be able to compete, that is where the issue is for me. I see that you are taking one side and applying it to how the game will be played and that teams will be min/max teams post GR. It is comments like this:
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| I'm going to start making Corrupters when I would have otherwise made a Defender. |
Play however you want if you are having fun. If you are min/maxer, more power to you (no pun
). When I set up teams, I only require you play. I never ask AT, powerset, look at IO bonuses, or whatever.
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Agreed, my ice/ice tank struggled way more soloing than my dark or kin defenders or even my cold/ice defender. |
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Soloing the two is miles apart.
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They need to improve tanks. (j/k
)EDIT: (no that some coffee has kicked in)
I wanted to add that if a player has soloing issues, the game provides tools to help. There are IOs and set bonuses you can plan for. And there are dual builds, where you could drop ally-only powers and slot up on attacks different or take different powers from the pools. Or you can choose a synergizing combination of power sets that get the most out of your powers. And look at all of the difficulty options we have now.
None of those are required, of course, but they are there and don't require changing to the entire AT because a player doesn't want to use them. If a player is really having issues soloing, then there are better ways to solo. The game can't be build around one AT, otherwise it will get boring real fast. Plus, every AT can solo, just differently between ATs and power sets.
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A red herring that's in the game, and must be considered. What if any stalker had a power that let them take ANY enemy down by 14.5% in one hit, but the hit would need an hour's recharge? You KNOW it would be considered what an 8 man stalker team could do.|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
Game changing for what? Any combination of 8 defenders, controllers, or corruptors will utterly trivialize anything they set out to do right now. This is a red herring.
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Unfortunately, your red herring displays exactly what a defender's true power is: they are a force multiplier. And it's this power that they seems set to balance their damage potential against. Why does a defender's assault give 18% damage? Because they give damage, rather than having it up front. Why do kinetics' siphon power/fulcrum shift give a full 25%? Same thing. Start low, boost high. Radiation's enervating field? A full 30% -res. You can't boost damage without throwing these number off.
Edit: but sorry, I'm getting off topic. We were talking defender inherent powers, not base modifiers. All the same, let's not mix vigilance with orange numbers. It's just not likely.
As far as the "too much buff" mindset, there were heroside teams that actually managed to beat Lord Winter with just 5 people. The force multiplier ability IS a key strength for defenders so damage buffs are highly unlikely.
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The difference between the Defender force multiplier and the Controller and Corrupter multipliers really isn't that big. |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
As far as the "too much buff" mindset, there were heroside teams that actually managed to beat Lord Winter with just 5 people. The force multiplier ability IS a key strength for defenders so damage buffs are highly unlikely.
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It feels like the Corrupters get a lot for the little bit of loss they recieve in the force modifying department.
And I'm not trying to unbalance the Orange Numbers. I'm suggesting they balance the Inherent to do something better.
An Inherent should help to better delineate the difference between Archetypes. It would be nice to have something visible and tangible besides the vague slightly better buffs that currently distinguish Corrupters from Defenders.
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The current Vigilence is doing what it was intended to do, but as you play the game, you realize that what the current Vigilence is intended to do really is not a strong or helpful mechanic. Its like giving me a cell phone with 2000 minutes when I still need to pay for a normal cell plan so I buy one that gives me a 1000 minutes and I realistically will only use around 800 minutes in even a bad month where I'm calling lots of people because of a bad situation. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Okay, the current inherent is working AS INTENDED, in my opinion. To clear that up no one is defending it. If you can provide numbers that when the team is struggling and you END management changes, you proved me wrong.
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I'm not great with numbers, which is one of the reasons, I'm still not sure if I am a min/maxer or not. But if you had enough endurance and endurance cost reduction already built into your toon for normal usage, very few if any builds will burn more than a normal amount of Endurance even when the stuff hits the fan and the team isn't doing so well. Thus the benefit of the current Vigilence is suspect. You only have so many powers, they only recharge so quickly. You can really only burn so much endurance in the amount of time endurance recovers.
But that said the Vigilence mechanic doesn't really help to make the concept of a "Defender". What I mean by that is that it doesn't separate out the Archetype or make it seem that novel or helpful. It makes it easy for people to say, "I'll just start making Corrupters instead of Defenders." I'm not the only person saying it. I know I won't be the last. Some people will still make Defenders, but I'm betting without a change it will be a lot less.
I hope the Dev's take this opportunity to rework Vigilence and have it do something more useful and more iconic to separate Defenders from the other archetypes.
Change vigilence to something like brutes fury.
As you use your pri/sec you build "vigilence", which grants +endurance.
Useful solo and teamed.
Great for any powerset combination.
Anything a team of 8 rad/sons will do wont be effected.
This even solves the healbot mentality. Standing around spammin heal aura, no vigilence for choo!
What would it do for the average defender?
Well, that leadership pool I dip'd so heavily in. I'll be able to slot something other than endurance reductions in them for better effect. And ill still be able to attack to keep my vigilance buff up.
As much as I'd love to see a +recharge buff or mez protection, I know that isnt goin to happen.
I refer back to the OP when they said "let the defender be the 1 AT that doesnt have to worry about endurance".
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I could easily get behind something like this. This is a good use of mixing what currently exists to come up with something better. |
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Change vigilence to something like brutes fury.
As you use your pri/sec you build "vigilence", which grants +endurance. Useful solo and teamed. Great for any powerset combination. Anything a team of 8 rad/sons will do wont be effected. This even solves the healbot mentality. Standing around spammin heal aura, no vigilence for choo! What would it do for the average defender? Well, that leadership pool I dip'd so heavily in. I'll be able to slot something other than endurance reductions in them for better effect. And ill still be able to attack to keep my vigilance buff up. As much as I'd love to see a +recharge buff or mez protection, I know that isnt goin to happen. I refer back to the OP when they said "let the defender be the 1 AT that doesnt have to worry about endurance". |
I just worry if it would be too easy to gain a full bar of Vigilence and keep it full?
I would simply like something that speeds up soloing.
Edit: Seldom - the stacked buff argument is a red herring because controllers and corruptors are capable of exactly the same thing. How many times do I have to make this point?
It's not a red herring because defenders can't do it. Of course they can. It's because three other ATs can do it too, two of them nearly as well as defenders, and one of them does significantly more damage with higher base damage + scourge.
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You can:|
Originally Posted by KaliMagdalene
I would simply like something that speeds up soloing.
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1) Roll an AT suited for soloing (aka Scrapper) instead of a rolling a team-based AT
2) Roll a synergizing combo (like dark/dark or kin/son)
3) Use dual builds to remove ally only powers, increase attacks, and slot attacks more heavily
4) Take power pools
5) Slot IOs, in particular sets
6) Adjust mission difficulties so you don't have to fight Bosses or AVs
7) Get temps like Shivans and WB Nukes
8) Log off the toon and build up Patrol XP
If you are choosing not to use the tools the game gives you, you can always team. This is an MMO and, although solo-FRIENDLY, it is not solo-REQUIRED.
Also, if you asking for speeding up soloing, how fast?
Same as a stone/stone tank in granite form?
As fast as a grav/FF controller with out a pet?
A spines/regen scrapper?
Where are you drawing the line here?
There is even a post of a video showing a defender soloing an orange con EB. If that solo defender can solo an EB, what are mins, Lts, or even bosses?
Nobody wanted to mention the videos of defenders soloing AV's, huh?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Defenders have a .65 multiplier, corruptors are .75 with cream on top. The numbers are too close, and the devs seem too happy with them to shift those. The mulipliers defenders have skew them too quickly as well., for those with primaries that skew orange numbers...and those are part of the equation.
And corruptors have pretty strong multipliers as well - not as strong as defenders, but again, scourge.
I do tend to think that defender ability to boost damage on some powersets is overstated, esp given that on teams that damage boosting affects the entire team, meaning that you're not ever going to see defenders outdamaging damage-focused ATs. And stacking defenders is an edge case that should not define the entire AT (and doesn't, because stacking them now is ridiculously OP).
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