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The problem with the build as it stands is that it looks like it should be good on paper but it massively underperforms in the field. It doesn't hit hard, and it drains endurance like nobodies business, even slotted for 'too much' end red. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I was wondering how undecided you were about the direction you would take with an Invuln however I thought you were more interested in Psi protection than most people. You could of carried on with your current build having invested in getting it to where it's at so far.
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I am, however, going to test out the general build on Test Server first. I know I cant IO it, but I can at least test out wether it 'feels' right or not.
I guess this is the root of the problem. I want to keep the character (First character, first and only Hero 50, most investment so far) and all that...but I just don't know wether the pain is really worth it.
I mean, I could re-roll him as a Scrapper, and sometimes achieve similar if not better results (I've seen a friends Scrapper that puts my tanking AND damage massively to shame) So....I guess really I'm kinda stuck. Personally, I do think that EM seems to be the porblem. But...Don't know >_<
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
The only thing you did wrong was pick Invln/ as a Armor set for a Tanker.
I can see it's problematic and unfinished. It looked like a build still in the process of slot changes and undecided on a few powers. I did look at it the other day, change stuff around. Move powers, change some and wondered how important build up to you was when you got +tohit from Invincible and all the +Acc bonuses in the attacks.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This guy is, literally, a couple of years old. WP didn't exist, Elec armour wasn't a tanker set, Shields didn't exist.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The only thing you did wrong was pick Invln/ as a Armor set for a Tanker.
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I might re-roll him as an elec/elec scrapper. They seem like they can get some pretty awesome numbers out there.
He's meant to be a robotic entity, so not so sure about WP. I also like having a clicky heal to fall back on...but, eh, that's a whole other problem.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Quote:
I think there may be a person or two who would disagree with you there.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The only thing you did wrong was pick Invln/ as a Armor set for a Tanker.
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I'm finding this thread very helpful as my own Inv/EM is level 23 and may soon need a respec. As terrible as EM is, I keep finding myself returning to the character and playing a little bit more, so it's good to get a little better idea of what to aim for.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
With the crazy resists and decent defence an Invuln gets, wouldn't it be good to slot for some regen?
I'd definitely slot the Numi unique in Physical Perfection, along with a numi heal and some end mod IOs. Just put a normal heal IO in health. Maybe not bother with the miracle.
I'd much rather have Energy Punch than Air Superiority. Energy Punch has some impressive DPA.
On my WP/EM I only have about 1.85 endurance recovery after the toggles, and I still never run out of endurance. I do have the performance shifter proc though.
Something like this maybe?
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Code:
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OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
Yes, but rather than shoehorning Energy Punch into the build, if you just gave Boxing the full credit, you could have nearly the same damage output and save yourself a power-pick. Energy Punch's main benefit is the energy damage, true, but otherwise they are functionally equivalent, right down to the Stun.
And since the character is a Flier, Air Superiority is a superb choice.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Huh? Even energy damage notwithstanding, 122 DPA compared to 75 DPA doesn't seem insignificant to me. That's about 60% more damage with identical slotting.
And Air Superiority is only much worse for damage (68 DPA, I think). So unless you need the control, I wouldn't bother. Nothing wrong with taking Hover after all, if you want to squeeze those last couple of points of defence for when you need it.
Unless I'm missing something here?
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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I agree with you on having more regen. Tankers in general will benefit from higher regen values much more than any other hero AT due to their higher HP levels. Invuln. in particular is one that can take the Greatest advantage of higher regen values, due to Dull Pain.|
Originally Posted by oreso
With the crazy resists and decent defence an Invuln gets, wouldn't it be good to slot for some regen?
I'd definitely slot the Numi unique in Physical Perfection, along with a numi heal and some end mod IOs. Just put a normal heal IO in health. Maybe not bother with the miracle. I'd much rather have Energy Punch than Air Superiority. Energy Punch has some impressive DPA. On my WP/EM I only have about 1.85 endurance recovery after the toggles, and I still never run out of endurance. I do have the performance shifter proc though. |
As far as Energy Punch is concerned, while I myself would prefer it to Air Superiority, Air Sup. is a good power also.... and unless you're a 60+ month veteran, you're going to need a pre-req for your travel power, (Fly, in this case) which you don't have in your build. Given that, Air Sup. would be a welcome replacement for most, i think.
I also think Health would deserve better slotting if you're going for a higher Regen value. It has double the base regen% of Physical Perfection so it would benefit much more from the Numina proc than PP. Even so, i'd prefer to slot the full Numina set in Dull Pain, 2 more Numi's and the Regenerative Tissue proc in Health, and use PP as an endurance buffer by slotting the Miracle proc along with a 2nd Performance Shifter proc (the 1st would be in stamina) and the EndMod IO from that set.
I'd also use Kick instead of Boxing from the fighting pool, and i'd slot it. It seems most people prefer Boxing for it's slightly shorter cast time (and likely the lack of KB too), but i like that Kick can be slotted with the Force feedback +Rech proc, and it has slightly higher base damage than Boxing. In a build like this, Kick would be an active power in the attack chain, so the proc would fire often as a result.
Aside from those things, your builds stats are very similar to one i put together for my Invuln/EM tank a while ago. I used the dual build feature to make both offensive and defensive builds. Needless to say, it's a work in progress.... slotting 2 builds is expensive, and she's level 38 ATM. Here's what mine looks like :
Click this DataLink to open the build![/b][/u][/color]
Code:
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I also did a bit of rework on the build you posted, mostly just changed a few slots/enhancements and swapped out Boxing and Lazer Beam Eyes for Kick and Build Up, respectively. The overall defense dropped slightly, but is softcapped to S/L/F/C/E/N with 4 enemies in range and has higher recharge, regen, health & recovery.
Click this DataLink to open the build![/b][/u][/color]
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I'd much rather have it in PP:|
Originally Posted by Mystic_Cross
I also think Health would deserve better slotting if you're going for a higher Regen value. It has double the base regen% of Physical Perfection so it would benefit much more from the Numina proc than PP.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=194955
But I have nothing against slotting more things in health if they're available.
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| Even so, i'd prefer to slot the full Numina set in Dull Pain |
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| unless you're a 60+ month veteran, you're going to need a pre-req for your travel power |
Cheers!
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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If i was going for more recovery, then yes I'd slot the Numina proc in PP also... but for regen purposes, slotting in Health would give a bigger buff to the regen component of the proc. The Miracle unique gives a higher recovery buff than the Numina so it will give a bigger buff in PP, which can be slotted for End Mods to enhance that buff. |
Originally Posted by oreso
I'd much rather have it in PP:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=194955 But I have nothing against slotting more things in health if their available. |
I'm not disputing that you can get higher recovery out of the Numina if you put it in PP with a few End Mod IO's, but you can get higher regen if you slot it in Health with a couple Heal IO's, as opposed to slotting in PP with a couple Heal IO's.
Putting the full Numina set in Dull Pain frees that slot in Health for another Numina IO (like a Heal/Rech or Heal/End) which will further enhance the regen with the health enhancement of the IO plus the 12% regen from the set bonus of 2 Numina's, which will bring the regen even higher. Slotting health with a Numina Heal and Heal/Rech for example, will yield a higher regen% than 2 generic Heal IO's, because of the 12% set bonus from 2 Numi's.
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Originally Posted by oreso
But Doctored Wounds has much better recharge? Having Dull Pain up more of the time would be good.
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The main reason I'd never slot DP with a full set of Numinas is because it really diminishes the unique's potency. The unique is a proc, meaning the power it is slotted in needs to be used in order to "turn it on." After using the power, the effect lingers for 120s - the exact same duration of DP. In other words, unless you have perma DP and use it on every cooldown (wasting the heal), you won't have the regen/recov bonuses permanently. Numina's 6 slot bonus (3.75% range def, 1.88% e/ne def) is nowhere near worth losing that.|
Originally Posted by Mystic_Cross
Yes, Doctored Wounds does have a better recharge than the Numina set in a direct comparison of the two, but for the purposes of this build the Numina set has "enough". The Force Feedback +Recharge proc I have slotted in Kick would be part of the regular attack chain, and should fire often enough to make DP "perma" with either set, thereby also making the Numina proc be on at all times as if it were in health AND making the extra recharge from DW widely unnecessary. You also get the full Numina set bonuses, including more regen, more HP, a heal buff and more Energy/Neg. Energy defense. A fair tradeoff for slightly higher recharge that shouldn't make a difference anyway.
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Another lesser known tidbit: if you place Numina in a power where it activates frequently (such as a passive like Health) it will stack while zoning. For example, you're in RWZ and enter a Borea mission, you'll have ~2 minutes of the Numina double stacking. I'm not exactly sure on the particulars, but I believe this is because your character's "ID" changes when you zone, so buffs that are set not to self stack will stack since they were cast by different IDs.
*Head Explodes*
Oh dear...this is getting way too complex for me to deal with...I may just give him a beak until GR >_<
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The only thing you did wrong was pick Invln/ as a Armor set for a Tanker.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I think there may be a person or two who would disagree with you there.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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On a whim, I played my inv/EM yesterday on a task force and was reminded how useful the stun is. Fake Nemeses are terribly annoying when they put up their PFF. Perma-stunning them takes care of that nicely.
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Originally Posted by Starflier
As terrible as EM is, I keep finding myself returning to the character and playing a little bit more, so it's good to get a little better idea of what to aim for.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Firstly, to the OP.... many apologies for making your head explode |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
The main reason I'd never slot DP with a full set of Numinas is because it really diminishes the unique's potency. The unique is a proc, meaning the power it is slotted in needs to be used in order to "turn it on." After using the power, the effect lingers for 120s - the exact same duration of DP. In other words, unless you have perma DP and use it on every cooldown (wasting the heal), you won't have the regen/recov bonuses permanently. Numina's 6 slot bonus (3.75% range def, 1.88% e/ne def) is nowhere near worth losing that.
Another lesser known tidbit: if you place Numina in a power where it activates frequently (such as a passive like Health) it will stack while zoning. For example, you're in RWZ and enter a Borea mission, you'll have ~2 minutes of the Numina double stacking. I'm not exactly sure on the particulars, but I believe this is because your character's "ID" changes when you zone, so buffs that are set not to self stack will stack since they were cast by different IDs. |
Sarrate - I'm not sure if you read the entire portion you quoted from my post, but I did state that DP is effectively "perma". Also In one of the builds i posted (I believe it was the 2nd one), End Recovery is at 2.49/s Net with all toggles active, and there are 2 Performance Shifter +End procs, as well as all the attacks being slotted with good EndRed (with the exception of Whirling Hands, which is slotted OK) it's unlikely there will be any endurance issues.
Aside from that, you're getting a PERMANENT 24% regen boost, total, from the 2 slot bonuses in Health and DP, which is higher than the regen from the numina proc, and it IS permanent.... so you actually do keep the permanent regen bonus, in effect, and you have an additional one available through the proc when you activate DP. As far as the +Recovery portion, the extra recovery shouldn't even be needed since endurance is under control, it's just another bonus when you need it, it's fluff. the 2 Performance Shifter procs firing will be enough to cover any additional endurance needs. Since the character's max endurance has been raised, and the PS procs give a percentage of max endurance when they fire, that equals out to approximately 23 endurance when both procs fire, almost 1/4 of your end bar. I have no issues forsaking a constant +rec in the numina proc due to that. I was also going for more +regen than +recovery, working off of the build that Oreso posted.
The regen is sitting around 30HP/s without Dull Pain, and is 44HP/s with DP active. 30HP/s should be quite enough for most things when factoring in the build's defence and resistances, and you always have that little bit extra, if and when you need it. it shouldn't be required to use DP every time it's up unless you're in a very long fight, so no wasting the heal. The 1.88% E/N defence in the set was used to bring E/N in-line with S/L/F/C defences at just over 40% with 1 enemy in range of Invincibility. The Numina set's 5th slot bonus is useles for a tanker IMO, but the bonuses prior to that are well worth it, especially if recharge isn't an issue, which it isn't in my build. Constantly using Energy transfer will probably drain your HP more than the damage your enemies will do, and in my build, ET will be part of the regular attack chain. That, if anything, will ensure you'll be using DP for both the heal and the proc bonuses, on top of the +HP.
I agree with you that in MOST cases, the Numi proc is better off slotted in an auto-power like Health, but i don't believe it's necessarily required. I'm fully aware of the proc's double stacking effect when zoning, and i feel there are other AT's who would benefit more from that than an Invuln Tanker, like blasters, defenders & controllers... possibly even scrappers. basically AT's with lower HP, defense or resistance that could make more use of another survivability buff.
Even then, in a team setting you would get less use out of the proc double stacking due to things like waiting for all the team members to enter before starting, etc. so the double stack effect is for the most part useless unless your team is herding everything to the mission entrance so you can constantly zone for the buff. I've tested this quite a bit on a blaster, and only when solo or on a very fast moving team that doesn't bother to wait for anyone, i see a slight improvement in performance and survivability for those 2 minutes. Certainly nothing a few inspirations couldn't take care of. A single purple shield insp will take you further in the way of survivability.
When my Blaster has the Numi proc double stacked (in Health) he has about 32HP/s regen, between that and the minor defense bonuses he has (mostly positional melee, about 25%) make him extremely resilient. Even normally, without the stack, he rarely dies.
My Invul/EM tank is mostly fitted with generic IO's, has no Numina or Performance Shifter's... her Net end recovery is about 2.25 with 3 toggles (doesn't have tough or weave until i respec) and she has 4 attacks currently (Barrage, Energy Punch, Whirling Hands & Energy Transfer) and can solo +1/x8 Crey mobs with moderate difficulty and with no endurance problems. I'm near certain she could handle +2/x8 but i haven't tried yet. The only unique IO's she has slotted is the steadfast +def proc and a few Impervium Armor's Psi resist, and she's level 38. Given that, I don't see any issues with the builds posted above as far as survivability is concerned...if anything, they may be overkill for regular content and average difficulties.
Well, this turned out to be a much more long-winded post than i first intended, so i'll just end it now. Cheers!
Rather than creating a new thread, I thought I'd tack onto this one. This is the build I'm considering with an Invuln/EM Tank. Can anyone see any improvements?
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (9) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge: Level 40
- (9) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (11) Reactive Armor - Resistance: Level 40
- (11) Reactive Armor - Endurance: Level 40
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage: Level 35
- (43) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance: Level 35
- (43) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge: Level 35
- (43) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 35
- (A) Doctored Wounds - Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (3) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (3) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (5) Doctored Wounds - Heal: Level 50
- (5) Doctored Wounds - Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Kinetic Combat - Accuracy/Damage: Level 35
- (40) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance: Level 35
- (42) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Recharge: Level 35
- (42) Kinetic Combat - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 35
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (7) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (7) Recharge Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (34) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge: Level 40
- (36) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (36) Reactive Armor - Resistance: Level 40
- (36) Reactive Armor - Endurance: Level 40
- (A) Empty
- (A) Perfect Zinger - Taunt: Level 50
- (13) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge: Level 50
- (13) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Recharge/Range: Level 50
- (15) Perfect Zinger - Accuracy/Recharge: Level 50
- (15) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Range: Level 50
- (27) Perfect Zinger - Chance for Psi Damage: Level 50
- (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range: Level 50
- (29) Blessing of the Zephyr - Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range/Endurance: Level 50
- (29) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points): Level 50
- (A) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (17) Eradication - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 30
- (17) Eradication - Damage/Recharge: Level 30
- (23) Multi Strike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (25) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (25) Scirocco's Dervish - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Regenerative Tissue - +Regeneration: Level 30
- (19) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
- (19) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (27) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod: Level 50
- (21) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge: Level 50
- (21) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy: Level 50
- (23) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End: Level 50
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (31) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (33) Defense Buff IO: Level 50
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (33) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge: Level 40
- (33) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (34) Reactive Armor - Resistance: Level 40
- (34) Reactive Armor - Endurance: Level 40
- (A) Aegis - Resistance: Level 40
- (31) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (31) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (46) Defense Buff IO: Level 50
- (A) Empty
- (A) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance: Level 40
- (48) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Recharge: Level 40
- (48) Reactive Armor - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge: Level 40
- (48) Reactive Armor - Resistance: Level 40
- (50) Reactive Armor - Endurance: Level 40
- (A) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (37) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (37) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (40) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (39) Crushing Impact - Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (39) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge: Level 50
- (39) Crushing Impact - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance: Level 50
- (40) Crushing Impact - Damage/Endurance/Recharge: Level 50
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO: Level 50
- (A) Miracle - +Recovery: Level 40
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery: Level 50
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal: Level 50
- (45) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance: Level 50
- (46) Endurance Modification IO: Level 50
- (46) Endurance Modification IO: Level 50
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed: Level 50
- (50) Luck of the Gambler - Defense: Level 50
- (50) Defense Buff IO: Level 50
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%: Level 30
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Well, for one thing, you've overslotted your resistance powers for end reduction, and slotted no end red at all in your defense toggles. Based on the fact that you put an extra end red slot in a *passive*, I'm guessing that the fifth RA slot is for the F/C bonus. IMO, the tiny F/C def bonus it is definitely not worth it considering what those slots could/should be used for.
So, take the Endurance slot out of TI, UY, Tough, and ResEn. Put an additional slot in Invinc and Weave, get rid of the common IO, and slot LotG Def/End and Def/End/Rchg in each.
With the other two slots freed up from your resist powers, put a slot each in Barrage and Bone Smasher. Attacks just 4-slotted with Kinetic Combat are low in accuracy and damage, so add a Acc/Dam, Acc/Dam/Rchg, or Acc/Dam/End from another set. (Crushing Impact is a good choice since it's not too expensive and goes to level 50.)
Invul has excellent KB protection in UY, so that -KB IO is not needed for that purpose. If you slotted it for the F/C, I don't think it's worth the influence considering how rare F/C damage is. I think you'd be better off putting it in Tough Hide and slotting a Kismet +Acc, or as a second end reduction slot in FA. (I think CP is a better prereq than FA, but your call.)
As it is, you're not quite to the S/L soft-cap. If you do want get past 45%, all it would take is to replace one of the CI sets in ET or TF with 4 Smashing Haymaker plus another set IO. It's up to you whether soft-capping is worth giving up the CI bonuses.
The only other thing I'd suggest is to take RPD earlier; either ResEn or ResEl can easily be bumped to 49.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.