Going Rogue story speculation: Loyalists 20-49?


Clave_Dark_5

 

Posted

Aren't we about due for another Going Rogue teaser?

I was thinking this afternoon about the Going Rogue storyline, and part of what we know about it (from Herocon) is that the native Praetorian storyline dead-ends at level 20. Both Loyalists and Resistance level from 1-19 in Praetoria, and then come to Primal Earth. (I hate that name, since there's no in-game reason to believe that Statesman's Earth is the one that all the others branched off from. I'll be deeply disappointed if it's what Tyrant and Antimatter call Statesman's dimension. But that's neither here nor there.)

The Resistance go to Paragon City at level 20, and become heroes, or at least vigilantes. We don't know yet if this happens as an opportunity arises for them, or if it's a panicky escape from an all-out assault on the Resistance by the Praetorian PD and the Praetorian Clockwork, but either way it makes sense: level from 20 to 50 in a safer environment, try to make friends and recruit heroes from this new dimension to take home to try to overthrow Tyrant. All well and good.

The Loyalists go to the Rogue Isles at level 20, and ... wait, what?

As I've long complained, basically all of the villain content dictates that you are in Project Destiny, the swarm of low-level villains who were rescued from the Zig by Arachnos based on a prophesy of Kalinda's; the details of the prophesy are classified, but everybody in the Isles knows about this "new" faction called The Destined Ones, nominally aligned with Arachnos and protected (to some extent) by the Arachnos Arbiter corps. So at level 20, Praetorian Loyalists do what, again, when they get to the Rogue Isles? Infiltrate Project Destiny? How? That doesn't make any sense!

It makes some tiny, tiny amount of sense for Tyrant to support Lord Recluse. The enemy of my enemy is, if not a friend, at the very least a useful tool. We know that Recluse is willing to negotiate with the Rikti Restructurists, you can see the Restructurist ambassador hanging out in the main entry hall of Recluse's Watchtower, the government headquarters in Grandville. If he's willing to negotiate technology transfer, if not mutual assistance, with the enemies of the entire human race against their common enemy, Freedom Phalanx, then it's not inconceivable that Recluse would welcome technological or economic or even just manpower assistance from Tyrant, especially if he perceives that his brother-in-law is getting reinforcements from the same dimension. The logic works the same way in reverse for Tyrant accepting help from Lord Recluse.

But what I can't begin to imagine how they're going to write their way around is how this gets palmed off on the level 20 to 39 contacts. The reason why people from Vince Dubrowski and Lorenz Ansaldo up through Magus Mu'Drakhan and Johnny Sonata seek you out to hire you is that by level 20, you've got a reputation. By level 20, everybody in the Isles knows how you clawed your way up out of Darwin's Landing and made a name for yourself as a villain not to be trifled with, as a serious candidate to become The Destined One, whatever the heck they think that means. How's that going to be explained when you're a brand new immigrant at level 20 who's never been in the Zig, and who doesn't know Mercy Island from Coney Island?


 

Posted

And just imagine heroes and villains exploring myriad grey areas of morality or switching sides completely. I think I just burst your head with your doom questioning.

I'm sure everything's being considered.


 

Posted

That is an interesting question.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that some of the final missions that take you from being a Praetorian/Vigilante into a Villain will involve your induction to the program. Or something like that.


[CENTER]Euro side: [B]@Orion Star[/B] & [B]@Orions Star[/B][/CENTER]

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
Both Loyalists and Resistance level from 1-19 in Praetoria, and then come to Primal Earth. (I hate that name, since there's no in-game reason to believe that Statesman's Earth is the one that all the others branched off from. I'll be deeply disappointed if it's what Tyrant and Antimatter call Statesman's dimension. But that's neither here nor there.)
I don't have much to say about the main point of your thread, other than it's a good question and I'll be looking forward to seeing it answered (I hope). However, I do have something on this point.

We supposedly call this 'Primal' Earth because it's supposed to be the first Earth, or at least our first Earth. They can call us Primal Earth, because we are "so primitive and savage" compared to their supposed utopia. At least that's how I see it.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Maybe Recluse decides to try and find Destined Ones from other dimensions?
No good. The whole thing behind the Destined Ones is that some meta-human currently in the Zig has the power to bring down Statesman. Even the VEATs have to cheat their way onto the list of potentials. Unless there's something major in the canon, there's no possible way someone from another dimension can qualify.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
No good. The whole thing behind the Destined Ones is that some meta-human currently in the Zig has the power to bring down Statesman. Even the VEATs have to cheat their way onto the list of potentials. Unless there's something major in the canon, there's no possible way someone from another dimension can qualify.
Especially not when the cheating dog keeps that many Heroes around him...
Let States, Tyrant and Recluse all duke it out to the death.
That way I dont have to do the goddamned LRSF ever again...
/Simmering Rage


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Well, here we're venturing into spoiler territory. If you really want to know why that might not work, you can either hit the wiki up, or send me a PM and I'll give you the Cliff Notes version. I will say that it's not that easy to do, though.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Did I miss something? Was it confirmed that Going Rogue will feature no 20+ content somewhere that I missed?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Did I miss something? Was it confirmed that Going Rogue will feature no 20+ content somewhere that I missed?
It was confirmed that at level 20, you must leave Praetoria, with Resistance going to Paragon City, and Tyrant's thugs going to the Rogue Isles - so it seems there's going to be some kind of content gap in the new stuff - which makes sense, as it's an expansion only, so it's unlikely there'd be a way to level 1 through 50 with only the new content.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Did I miss something? Was it confirmed that Going Rogue will feature no 20+ content somewhere that I missed?
On YouTube (here) you can see the full half-hour main presentation on Going Rogue that was given at Herocon, it's in there.

To be precise, it doesn't say that there's no level 20+ content; it just says that at level 20, you have to go to Primal Earth. They said in a separate presentation (or so I'm told) that Going Rogue includes new super-hard content for people who are already maxed out level 50s, and that they would be releasing the first information on what that content would be around the time the beta begins. (Which ought to be in at most a couple of weeks, right? Right?) I speculate (and I want to stress that this is pure speculation on my part!) that this will involve either:
  • a Praetorian invasion of Primal Earth, a battle between the Heroes and the Resistance versus the Praetorians and the Villains, with Vigilantes and Rogues taking both sides as they feel their internal moral compass (or their pocketbook) guides them (my first guess), or ...
  • Heroes and Resistance invade Praetorian Earth to overthrow Tyrant, who is defended by Loyalists and Villains (with the same caveat about Vigilantes and Rogues), or (one last guess) ...
  • maybe separate or joint raids against Praetorian Super Mega Ultra Hamidon, the version of Hamidon that got started decades before Primal Hamidon, conquered all of Praetorian Earth except Praetorian (Paragon) City, and as a result has monopoly access to every source of super-heroic power outside of Rhode Island.
In two of those three guesses, people who buy the expansion will be going to Praetorian Earth at level 50. Or else it's something else entirely.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
[*]maybe separate or joint raids against Praetorian Super Mega Ultra Hamidon, the version of Hamidon that got started decades before Primal Hamidon, conquered all of Praetorian Earth except Praetorian (Paragon) City, and as a result has monopoly access to every source of super-heroic power outside of Rhode Island.[/list]In two of those three guesses, people who buy the expansion will be going to Praetorian Earth at level 50. Or else it's something else entirely.
I can suddenly see Greater Devoured versions of Atlas and Talos as giant monsters. o_o


Ideon's Paragonwiki page
Member of Paragon/Rogue Knights
Arc: 60092 - Supa Rumble in the Park
"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
-- High-Roller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
Aren't we about due for another Going Rogue teaser?
I'm with you, I'm getting itchy... real itchy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
... Primal Earth. (I hate that name, since there's no in-game reason to believe that Statesman's Earth is the one that all the others branched off from. I'll be deeply disappointed if it's what Tyrant and Antimatter call Statesman's dimension. But that's neither here nor there.)
That does make for some interesting thinking. I went through something like this in my latest arc which deals with an alternate Earth where the sentient race that arose came from panda bears. The contact from that dimension refers to "our" Earth as "Primate Earth" and I was careful to keep her dialogue about her world vs. ours correct from her point of view; "our" world (or Statesman's dimension as you called it) would never be THE world in her viewpoint, just that place "you came from. It took a little thinking but it wasn't rocket surgery so hopefully the devs can manage it as well.


 

Posted

Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
...


There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
...
I agree with this and if it was fixed like that it would go against the whole grey thing of Going Rogue.

A psycho more suited to be a villain could join the resistance because they just wanted an excuse to blow something up! And someone who was genuinely good (if a little misguided IMO) could be working as a loyalist but would be more suited as a hero.


Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Quote:
16. Has Paragon Studios redefined "player" to require your mouse to subscribe separately from your keyboard?
If your mouse has greater processing power than your gfx card, the answer is yes.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired Angel View Post
I agree with this and if it was fixed like that it would go against the whole grey thing of Going Rogue.

A psycho more suited to be a villain could join the resistance because they just wanted an excuse to blow something up! And someone who was genuinely good (if a little misguided IMO) could be working as a loyalist but would be more suited as a hero.
I've said the same thing, before--just not as articulate as you just did.

And those are, pretty much, exactly the way several of my characters would react. Tyrant and the Praetorian Guard are the lawful ruling authorities. Not to mention the fact that anyone can ascend his meritocracy and change things if they wanted to, legally. Thus far, the Resistance just seem like terrorists to me. I would not be entirely surprised to find that their tech-steampunk appearances equates them to being the Praetorian Freaksho; they already have a lot in common.


There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.

 

Posted

To be honest, I was/still am Hoping for 1-50 Content in Praetorian World.
So we can lvl there entire time if we want, but we'll see.

I don't mind if I want the option to say jump to Paragon/Rogue Isles to do specific Arc(Like Midnighter one, etc..)

But they really should make Going Rogue full stand alone away from CoH & V. So you can have more options to lvl. We shall see, I guess.


JJ


I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
On YouTube (here) you can see the full half-hour main presentation on Going Rogue that was given at Herocon, it's in there.To be precise, it doesn't say that there's no level 20+ content; it just says that at level 20, you have to go to Primal Earth.
That's odd. I've seen the Hero Con movie and I remember no such thing. I do know they talk a lot about revamping the 1-20 experience, and they do say that, at level 20, you have to choose whether you'll side with the Resistance or the Loyalists, but I remember nothing about going to Primal Earth. Since it's a 20-minute movie that I've already seen several times, I'm somewhat disinclined to watch it from beginning to end all over again, so if you can point me to at least a rough time of when this is said, I can have a look and see if I didn't miss anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
...
As I understand it from the HeroCon stuff, this IS the way it is... the Resistance are "heroes" and the Loyalists are "villains".... but not in the clear cut sense that they are in Primal Earth.

From what I understand, the whole point of Going Rogue is to explore the shades of gray. Emperor Cole controls Praetoria with an iron fist in a velvet glove. He BELIEVES that he is doing what's right, by controlling everything to "ensure the people of Praetoria a better life".... sort of a Fidel Castro angle where the dictator is in power... in his mind at least... as a "servant of the people".

Whereas the Resistance is more about freedom from control. They are the classic liberals, known today as libertarians and anarchists. And the story of the Resistance will explore both the good of that AND the bad. Especially on the anarchist bent. Because without ANY rules, without ANY control... with pure chaos as your only goal... it is certainly not a safe world. In fact the world envisioned by the Resistance is a world that is more unsafe than Kings Row at night for the citizens. A sort of wild west where you have to protect yourself because no one else out there will protect you.

From what I've seen and heard, you take the concepts found in Paragon City and the Rogue Isles and reverse them. Where in Paragon City, the control is subtle and is democratically chosen by the people... in Praetoria the control is obvious and overbearing and run by a "benevolent tyrant". Where in the Rogue Isles freedom is allowed to an absurd amount... as long as you don't try to usurp Recluse's reign, in the Resistance freedom goes even further where freedom is rampant, but since you're in exile from the established state... freedom is bittersweet. I imagine those living in the resistance as being similar to the resistance fighters in Demolition Man, fighting and scraping to just meet their BARE essentials... while in the upper world controlled by Cole, everyone's basic needs are easily met.

So it's not exactly black or white, it's shades of gray... only with the roles switched. Whereas in Primal Earth freedom is seen as bringing peace and plenty, and Praetorian earth freedom is bringing suffering and pain to the resistance. Whereas in Primal Earth the dictatorial control of Recluse ironically brings about a certain lawlessness, in Praetorian Earth the dictatorian control of Cole brings about a completely controlled state.

I'm using too many words to try to explain this.... but I don't know how else to. Sorry.

Let me try a shorter version:

Centralized Control: Rogue Isles, Loyalists
Decentralized Control (Democracy): Paragon City, Resistance

Safety: Paragon City, Loyalists
Freedom: Rogue Isles, Resistance

Yeah, I think that about does it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
...
You might have to rethink that wish


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry View Post
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
Please, no Resistance=Hero, Loyalist=Villain.
...
And now you know exactly how I felt about issues 6 and 7.

Look, whatever their virtues, you cannot accuse the Paragon Studios writing team of having any subtlety to their politics, of handling shades of gray at all well, at least not to date. Look at how they've handled (or, to my taste, mis-handled) the entire Arachnos storyline so far. Plausible dictators and their lackeys don't gloat about how evil and corrupt and thieving they are, or about how they want to grind the whole world under their iron boot, not even among themselves; they talk about how corrupt and immoral and thieving and evil the other side are, and talk about themselves as the protectors and liberators of the common man.

So, yeah, no. No matter how much they said at Herocon about how the Praetorians are no longer just the "goatee versions" of Freedom Phalanx and the Vindicators, once they set up Tyrant as a villain, and you can't deny that they have, it was pretty much inevitable that all of the writing will portray Tyrant and his lackeys as mustache-twirling melodrama villains; the only moral ambiguity will be in the matter of how long does it take your character to figure out that the Resistance are the good guys and the government superheroes and cops are the bad guys, and once you figure that out, do you choose to be a bad guy for the government or a good guy for the resistance?

Like you, I would love to be wrong. It's much better writing and plotting that way, and much more interesting. But I don't expect to have been wrong about this.


 

Posted

Actually, frrom what I can remember of the announcement, I believe the player actually makes a 'final choice' where they want to go when they leave Praetoria. So you can have a Resistance character leave to join the Rogue Isles.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
it was pretty much inevitable that all of the writing will portray Tyrant and his lackeys as mustache-twirling melodrama villains
Of course - it's a comic book world

Although, it might be more subtle than you think - but the basic fact is correct - Tyrant and his goons are villains - because heroes don't the things he does


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad View Post
So, yeah, no. No matter how much they said at Herocon about how the Praetorians are no longer just the "goatee versions" of Freedom Phalanx and the Vindicators, once they set up Tyrant as a villain, and you can't deny that they have, it was pretty much inevitable that all of the writing will portray Tyrant and his lackeys as mustache-twirling melodrama villains; the only moral ambiguity will be in the matter of how long does it take your character to figure out that the Resistance are the good guys and the government superheroes and cops are the bad guys, and once you figure that out, do you choose to be a bad guy for the government or a good guy for the resistance?
I don't know where you're getting this, but I've not seen them portrayed as such, or indeed portrayed as anything too specific. It's practically written on the wall who the good guys will be and who the bad guys will be, but it's a continental jump from that to "moustache-twirling evil." You can make a good guy with uncertain motivations and a bad guy who seems to have a point and still retain a very clear picture of who is who. Frankly, where you see precedent, I see a world of reasons to NOT repeat what has been done, partly because very much everyone has complained about it, and partly because there's no point to release an expansion that's a retread of the same.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.