hard to argue.
I sort of agree because some melee attacks cause an avatar to hop into air, then bring both fists down. You'd think that an overhead blow wrought by a ton of rock would be more damaging than an overhead blow wrought by a 250lb linebacker.
Agreed on logic. Same general idea spans across tankers in general, since their powers involve being super strong to the point of hurling a gigantic boulder 80+ ft. or flinging large maces and axes around. But as always, it's simply a balancing issue.
In the end, even if the devs were to implement this change for Granite Armor, it would probably even itself out to where if you average the extra number of times you miss a target with the extra damage you'll be doing, you're back at doing the same amount of damage over a period of time anyway.
If this change were to take place, it would be strictly for RP purposes, just so a stoney can walk up and say, "Hey, I'm not a weakling anymore... but I do whiff a lot more than I used to..." On a tangent, my only grievance with GA is that you can't yet modify any aspect of it in character creation.
My Virtue Projects
AE: 38959 - Invasion of the Dark Realm
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Oh, I totally agree with you. If this were to change, then it would no doubt balance out the same and I would actually expect it to. Hit more for less damage should be equal to More damage but hit less. |
Originally Posted by Master_Armantus
Agreed on logic. Same general idea spans across tankers in general, since their powers involve being super strong to the point of hurling a gigantic boulder 80+ ft. or flinging large maces and axes around. But as always, it's simply a balancing issue.
In the end, even if the devs were to implement this change for Granite Armor, it would probably even itself out to where if you average the extra number of times you miss a target with the extra damage you'll be doing, you're back at doing the same amount of damage over a period of time anyway. If this change were to take place, it would be strictly for RP purposes, just so a stoney can walk up and say, "Hey, I'm not a weakling anymore... but I do whiff a lot more than I used to..." On a tangent, my only grievance with GA is that you can't yet modify any aspect of it in character creation. |
Both problems can be and should be solved with SOs, IOs, and/or set bonuses.
It's just in concept this makes more sense.
While I agree it makes more sense Thematically, missing is a far more demoralizing and infuriating thing that dealing less damage.
Having a -ToHit penalty in Granite Armor would FEEL worse than the -Damage penalty, even if it wasn't.
There is nothing in the game more annoying and absolutely unenjoyable than missing.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Castle did say that Stone Armour as a whole wasn't balanced. Problem is, it's a swine to balance. And, undoubtably, for all the people who like any changes, there will be loads that hate it.
Personally? I find stone unplayable as it is now. Any changes would probably be a good thing. But that's just one bots opinion.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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How has no-one mentioned this yet? Originally, Grantie Armour did have a severe to-hit penalty. However, Tankers complained that the power which was supposed to help them survive and tank better actually made them completely unable to, as they couldn't hit anything for Gauntlet to provoke. I'm not sure if this were changed to the damage debuff or the slow (I believe it was -damage), but as it is now, it allows you to keep tanking, just not dealing damage. Essentially, to have your cake and eat it, too.
It's kind of like the crash of Rage. Back a while ago, it made you only affecting self for a while, but that again took Tanks out of the fight completely, so it was changed to a hideous damage debuff that caused you to hit everything for 1, but still allowed you to swing anyway. All of these powers are moving towards letting you fight, hit and land effects, but just not deal damage.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Which is crushing on Brutes, at least damage wise. Still, the armours can cope, and a few seconds down time isn't too bad when you go around being a roomsweeper the rest of the time...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's kind of like the crash of Rage. Back a while ago, it made you only affecting self for a while, but that again took Tanks out of the fight completely, so it was changed to a hideous damage debuff that caused you to hit everything for 1, but still allowed you to swing anyway. All of these powers are moving towards letting you fight, hit and land effects, but just not deal damage.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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While the original reason for the change from -Acc to -Dam was suggested by the players, I would suggest that now it would be hard to balance the -Acc back in.
This is mainly due to IOs, and the prevalence of +Acc bonuses, and the ability to slot more heavily for Acc without giving up on Damage. A -20% Acc penalty could be easily overcome, whereas the same Damage penalty is a bit harder to work around.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Not quite sure wether that suggests it'd be better to have -acc or worse. But, regardless;|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
While the original reason for the change from -Acc to -Dam was suggested by the players, I would suggest that now it would be hard to balance the -Acc back in.
This is mainly due to IOs, and the prevalence of +Acc bonuses, and the ability to slot more heavily for Acc without giving up on Damage. A -20% Acc penalty could be easily overcome, whereas the same Damage penalty is a bit harder to work around. |
Balancing around IO slotting is bad.
Just on principal.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Balancing on IO slotting is bad. Ignoring potential IO slotting while making balance changes is also bad.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Not quite sure wether that suggests it'd be better to have -acc or worse. But, regardless;
Balancing around IO slotting is bad. Just on principal. |
Edit -> What I'm trying to say is this: A 20% -Acc penalty, instead of the -20% Damage penalty would be a decent nerf to SO builds. However, it would be a huge bonus to IO'd-out builds, because they've probably already got a large amount of Acc bonuses. This would mean an even larger disparity from SO builds to IO builds, which isn't a good thing to do, IMO.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Ah ha... see I wasn't aware of that. And I guess it does make more sense for a tank to hit more in order to make use of Gauntlet. I'll concede my point.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
How has no-one mentioned this yet? Originally, Grantie Armour did have a severe to-hit penalty. However, Tankers complained that the power which was supposed to help them survive and tank better actually made them completely unable to, as they couldn't hit anything for Gauntlet to provoke. I'm not sure if this were changed to the damage debuff or the slow (I believe it was -damage), but as it is now, it allows you to keep tanking, just not dealing damage. Essentially, to have your cake and eat it, too.
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I'm not sure, but I don't think 20% accuracy directly correlates with 20% damage. This is probably why you'll commonly see 7-9% accuracy bonuses in IO sets while damage is commonly buffed around 2.5-3%. For balancing issues, it seems you can allow a large give in accuracy to be somewhat equivalent to a smaller give in damage. The amount of -Acc or -Dam would be up to the devs, but I'm sure they won't reverse the debuff with the exact same percentage amount.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Balancing on IO slotting is bad. Ignoring potential IO slotting while making balance changes is also bad.
Edit -> What I'm trying to say is this: A 20% -Acc penalty, instead of the -20% Damage penalty would be a decent nerf to SO builds. However, it would be a huge bonus to IO'd-out builds, because they've probably already got a large amount of Acc bonuses. This would mean an even larger disparity from SO builds to IO builds, which isn't a good thing to do, IMO. |
My Virtue Projects
AE: 38959 - Invasion of the Dark Realm
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I agree, but if we take that same spread from IOs to other areas (we'll use even a 5% Acc bonus, compared to a 2% Damage one), then -20% Dam would be -50% Acc. That would compound further the disparity between SO and IO builds.
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Originally Posted by Master_Armantus
I'm not sure, but I don't think 20% accuracy directly correlates with 20% damage. This is probably why you'll commonly see 7-9% accuracy bonuses in IO sets while damage is commonly buffed around 2.5-3%. For balancing issues, it seems you can allow a large give in accuracy to be somewhat equivalent to a smaller give in damage. The amount of -Acc or -Dam would be up to the devs, but I'm sure they won't reverse the debuff with the exact same percentage amount.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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If you really want to get funky with applying a penalty to accuracy, the devs could always make it a tohit debuff and, in order to prevent team buffs from rendering the penalty completely nonexistent, tohit buff resistance as well. To make it interesting, you'd probably want to make the tohit debuff roughly 10% and the tohit buff resistance roughly 50% (forcing there to be 20% +tohit in order to achieve normalcy).|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
I agree, but if we take that same spread from IOs to other areas (we'll use even a 5% Acc bonus, compared to a 2% Damage one), then -20% Dam would be -50% Acc. That would compound further the disparity between SO and IO builds.
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Personally, I'd much rather Castle just overhauled Stone Armor completely rather than trying to piddle around with a single power in the set. As it stands, the set is woefully underpowered prior to Granite Armor and painfully overpowered once it acquires it. Of course, many of the current Stone Armor users that love the current set up would probably cry foul if the set were changed in any way so as to discourage or prevent leaving Granite Armor up at all times (or at least, at all times in which a fair to middling level of damage is incoming), which is probably the biggest reason why Castle done anything to it already.
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Castle did say that Stone Armour as a whole wasn't balanced. Problem is, it's a swine to balance. And, undoubtably, for all the people who like any changes, there will be loads that hate it.
Personally? I find stone unplayable as it is now. Any changes would probably be a good thing. But that's just one bots opinion. |
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Of course, that doesn't help if the players decide to use Defense debuffs, instead |
Originally Posted by Umbral
If you really want to get funky with applying a penalty to accuracy, the devs could always make it a tohit debuff and, in order to prevent team buffs from rendering the penalty completely nonexistent, tohit buff resistance as well. To make it interesting, you'd probably want to make the tohit debuff roughly 10% and the tohit buff resistance roughly 50% (forcing there to be 20% +tohit in order to achieve normalcy).
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Aside from arguments already made, I don't think -Dam is entirely athematic. Yes, getting hit with a big rock hurts... but Granite Armor also slows you down. Getting hit with a heavy rock at normal punching speed may hurt more than a fist, but getting hit with a heavy rock slowly doesn't. Admittedly, the slow from Granite is only displayed visually with your running speed since changing the animation sequencers while in GA would probably make BAB cry. But it's something to think about.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
-acc or -damage, I don't really mind, but why in the name of all that is holy does a 2000 pound lump of rock still get pushed around by the pedestrians, there should be some code that says that whenever something moves due to the collision code, it's not the granite if the other thing can move.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
Keep the damage the same, but swap to entirely new (slow) animations to reduce the overall DPS.
BABS, make it so...
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Sounds like BABs worst nightmare, how many new animations ?
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Keep the damage the same, but swap to entirely new (slow) animations to reduce the overall DPS.
BABS, make it so... |
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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Considering it's a single model (huge, male, and female all use the same granite armor) with a single combat mode (no flight), it would be one extra animation for absolutely everything than can be used with it. So, not as much as some things but way more than others.
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Sounds like BABs worst nightmare, how many new animations ?
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Not quite true.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Considering it's a single model (huge, male, and female all use the same granite armor) with a single combat mode (no flight), it would be one extra animation for absolutely everything than can be used with it.
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- Granite only provides mag 10 Fly protection. If the Granite character activates Hover, and 7 teammates activate Group Fly/Group Energy Flight, the Granite character will become airborne. (Hover is mag 4, GFly/GEFlight are mag 1; 7 + 4 = 11)
Rooted does add an additional -10 Fly (for a total of -20), but it can be turned off. - "Combat mode" for the animation system includes things such as dual blades, two-handed weapon (katana), and assault rifle. And even if the character can't get into a certain combat mode with a powerset, there's temporary powers to consider. (IIRC, BAB said that single-handed weapons such as broadsword are treated as an extension of the dual bladed mode)
It is true that such a project would only have one skeleton that needed the work done, but you're still basically re-animating all of the melee sets.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Go. Hunt. Kill Peds.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
-acc or -damage, I don't really mind, but why in the name of all that is holy does a 2000 pound lump of rock still get pushed around by the pedestrians, there should be some code that says that whenever something moves due to the collision code, it's not the granite if the other thing can move.
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I despise that with every monofilimant in my core. Seriously...WE are the Heroes/Villains/Badasses. Pushing is what WE do!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yeah! Won't somebody think of the children!|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Go. Hunt. Kill Peds.
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I hate myself.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I suggest that they change the -DMG in Granite armor to a -ACC
I get that for balance you do less damage, have slower movement speed, and recharge speed for the gain of +def and +res, but thinking about it, turning from a squishy human, into a giant rock creature I would think you would become stronger. I could also see that you're less accurate because of the change in size, or the fact that your joints are now rocks rubbing against each other when bent, or even that it's because you are slower, it gives whatever you're attack more time to move out of the way or block.
Because when you think about it, a standard fighting tactic is if they're big, and you're small, then they're stronger but slower, while you're more agile and faster.
And yes, I know this can easily be rectified with slotting more damage, but thematically it just doesn't make sense to me the way it is now.