Puzzles


Another_Fan

 

Posted

So I just got my Paladin in D&DO to 3 (relax fanbois and trolls, this will not be a compare and contrast thread) and I saw a cool puzzle in a dungeon where you had to reposition floor tiles to remove a magic shield, and was wondering if , now that the "tech" wall of power coloring has finally fallen, does anybody see the CoX universe ever getting some sort of puzzle like environments? Be cool if they dropped some stuff like that in GR. Not to mention comics are filled with puzzles set up by dastardly villains that hero's must thwart.


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Posted

just so long as we have the option to "HULK SMASH!" through the puzzles if they stump us. :P


 

Posted

[Global General] Nubie Guy: I'm in the puzzle room for Gamester's second mission, how do I do this?
[Global General] Vet Reward Lass: 2nd block left; 1st block up; 3rd block right; 2nd block down; 4th block down; pull lever; 3rd block down 2nd block up; there's your wand.
[Global General] Nubie Guy: Thx!


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Posted

I think I remember Posi saying once that they don't do puzzles like what you suggest, because five minutes after someone figures it out, it's posted online and isn't something that has to be solved anymore.


 

Posted

Well, not to slam Posi, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out. Many puzzles could be randomized so the actions you take are not "always" the same. While I think it would take programmer man hours to do this, it could be done. So when the newbie says "Which wire do I cut in this mish" everybody says, "It's random, check your clues." Oh well.


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High Huntress 50 Archery/NRG Blast
And a goatload of others. On a goatload of servers.
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Posted

I would be soooo for this to mix things up also. Instead of: go to contact, go smash baddies, come back to contact to get another smash and grab. let's get something new to add to mishes. Random Elite boss to smash or... some random "something puzzle" to find to actually finish the mish that you have to really "think" to finish mish.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Blanc View Post
Well, not to slam Posi, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out. Many puzzles could be randomized so the actions you take are not "always" the same. While I think it would take programmer man hours to do this, it could be done. So when the newbie says "Which wire do I cut in this mish" everybody says, "It's random, check your clues." Oh well.
How is this significantly different from 4 glowies to click, only 1 of which completes the mission ?



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Posted

Wouldn't have a problem with that. Not sure how it would play in a team used to steamrolling all opposition.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
How is this significantly different from 4 glowies to click, only 1 of which completes the mission ?
He mentioned clues, which is what would make it a puzzle instead of merely a process of elimination. Although you would need some kind of penalty for making the wrong choice, else you could still just click randomly until you got it right.

Personally, I would welcome randomized puzzles as an occasional alternative to the usual smash and grab, but I'm not sure how well received they would be by the general population, or if it would be worth the time and effort of the Devs to create them. Also, I think they would have to be optional, possibly providing a bonus or short cut rather than being mandatory to mission completion, or I can see frustration and complaints resulting.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Blanc View Post
Well, not to slam Posi, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out. Many puzzles could be randomized so the actions you take are not "always" the same.
I consider this the epitome of lousy content. The 'puzzle' that can't be solved through observation or deduction but is merely a string of random actions that you have to figure out through random trial and error.

HORRIBLE idea. That kind of BS was common in games 20 years ago and it stunk.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
I consider this the epitome of lousy content. The 'puzzle' that can't be solved through observation or deduction but is merely a string of random actions that you have to figure out through random trial and error.

HORRIBLE idea. That kind of BS was common in games 20 years ago and it stunk.
I think you missed the rest of the post;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Blanc View Post
While I think it would take programmer man hours to do this, it could be done. So when the newbie says "Which wire do I cut in this mish" everybody says, "It's random, check your clues." Oh well.
Not completely trial-and-error random, but random with clues given. How hard you'd have to look for the clues, I couldn't say.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper View Post
I think you missed the rest of the post;

Not completely trial-and-error random, but random with clues given. How hard you'd have to look for the clues, I couldn't say.
Depends on the puzzle designer. The Latin Student at the blueside Midnighter club entrance is like a very simple, static implementation of this idea. As is one of Darrin Wade's missions.

That reminds me of one of the mission briefings you can get where the contact's text, the arc clues and the actual mission door location given for the mission all state different places for where you need to go next. Fortunately only the mission door location in your mission listing means anything.


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Posted

Zombie has captured the essential problem - puzzles are very quickly populated to the net, or answered in chat. Which may not be a showstopper, as no one has to read hint pages or ask for the solution, but it can take the ginger out of designing the things for developers.


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Posted

I beg to differ on it being easy to just post a solution. Here are some examples where "solutions" are posted but they don't take anything away from the fun of the puzzle:

Take the Mime contest from Runescape first. The best someone can do to help you figure it out is tell you "copy the same emotes the mime is doing!" You still have to recognize them and select them yourself. It's not like they do the same emote every time.

Or consider the Treasure Map again from Runescape. This is a case where a complete solution can be posted. But with over 100 possible "steps" asking in broadcast is not going to help. You can look it up, but you're still running to the multiple locations, talking to the multiple contacts, etc. It's still fun.

Then there is the Simon game from WoW. Just match colors. Go ahead, read the posted guide and see if it gives everything away. These are pretty similar to the lock mechanic from Mass Effect, but more fun and less annoying. Cool sound effects too, and you get zotted something nasty if you screw up. Take too long and the bad guys respawn and mob you too so there is a time pressure built in.

Other examples can be found easily enough.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Blanc View Post
Well, not to slam Posi, but that seems like a bit of a cop-out. Many puzzles could be randomized so the actions you take are not "always" the same. While I think it would take programmer man hours to do this, it could be done. So when the newbie says "Which wire do I cut in this mish" everybody says, "It's random, check your clues." Oh well.
How is this significantly different from 4 glowies to click, only 1 of which completes the mission ?
Three ways:

#1 The same way chocolate is different from vanilla and the same way that the offices are different from caves. Why do so many people like FrostFire's mission in the Hollows? This is exactly the same thing.

#2 Trial and error doesn't work. Figure it out or fail. Alternatively, figure it out and get larger rewards is also a good alternative. Keeps people from being frustrated since you are in a win-winbig scenario instead of a win-lose scenario.

#3 (most important): 4 glowies only 1 works = rewards autistic/OCD behavior. A puzzle means you have to make a decision. That is a fundamental and very significant difference. Now the implementation may exaggerate or minimize this difference, but making a decision and just randomly acting is a big difference.

This said, if you haven't yet give Scott Kurtz' Lolbat mission in the AE a try (it is one of the guest missions from Herocon). He introduced a mission where some glowies summon vicious ambushes, and others are required to complete the mission. It is a limited implementation using the tools available, but a good step in the right direction and makes for a very nice variation on the usual mission of walk in the door, beat down everyone, leave.


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I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg View Post
How is this significantly different from 4 glowies to click, only 1 of which completes the mission ?
I just had a terrible (or awesome) idea... is it possible in the Mission Architect to have the mission end in failure if you click a glowy?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade View Post
This said, if you haven't yet give Scott Kurtz' Lolbat mission in the AE a try (it is one of the guest missions from Herocon). He introduced a mission where some glowies summon vicious ambushes, and others are required to complete the mission. It is a limited implementation using the tools available, but a good step in the right direction and makes for a very nice variation on the usual mission of walk in the door, beat down everyone, leave.
Or try "Murder in Triplicate": the final mission has four bosses, one of whom is the murderer, and the other three are innocent (but hostile towards you). The mission is timed, and doesn't give you enough time to beat down all four -- you need to use the clues you picked up in the previous missions to figure out who to target. Imagine if there were a hundred different sets of clues, and the engine supported the mechanic of "defeat the wrong opponent and you fail the mission".


 

Posted

It would certainly add depth and variety to the game. A much better change than adding quarter million hitpoint villains.

Along this line branching story lines would be welcome. Having missions that with multiple outcomes that take you in different directions depending on how you did. Imagine the lady gray tf if failing the missions wound up requiring you to do new missions to undo the damage.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kierthos View Post
I just had a terrible (or awesome) idea... is it possible in the Mission Architect to have the mission end in failure if you click a glowy?
Not yet. However, you can have a clickie make an ally betray you or you can have it spawn a particularly nasty ambush. Be exceptionally careful with these. I like the concept if done right (ploting it for an upcoming arc) but without proper warning it makes excellent nerdrage fuel which you really don't want (unless, you actually do).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
It would certainly add depth and variety to the game. A much better change than adding quarter million hitpoint villains.

Along this line branching story lines would be welcome. Having missions that with multiple outcomes that take you in different directions depending on how you did. Imagine the lady gray tf if failing the missions wound up requiring you to do new missions to undo the damage.
A couple people have done this with AE. Make three arcs, first is intro, then you choose which of the second two based on the outcome of your first. They usually tell you in the mission summary notes (if you did xyz play mission ###, if you did uvw play mission ###). Kind of a kludge, but nice.

Quote:
Or try "Murder in Triplicate": the final mission has four bosses, one of whom is the murderer, and the other three are innocent (but hostile towards you). The mission is timed, and doesn't give you enough time to beat down all four -- you need to use the clues you picked up in the previous missions to figure out who to target. Imagine if there were a hundred different sets of clues, and the engine supported the mechanic of "defeat the wrong opponent and you fail the mission".
Thank you, I'll try that one!


"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.