most powerful -def power?
By
Catwhoorg,
Posted on: 2009-12-23 18:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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That's not correct. Most debuffs do stack from the same caster, even for the same power. Rad blasts stack, even from the same blast over and over.
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Originally Posted by spiritfox
I thought most powers wouldn't stack debuffs from the same caster, just refresh? Like Rad/ will stack debuff from its individual blasts together but not multiple debuffs from the same caster same power.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Not quite.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's not correct. Most debuffs do stack from the same caster, even for the same power. Rad blasts stack, even from the same blast over and over.
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Most "Debuffs" (powers from a Buff/Debuff powerset which's main purpose is to debuff) don't stack from the same caster. Now, most "Secondary Effects" (powers from a blast or melee set which's main purpose is to do damage, but have a debuff attached as a secondary effect) do infact stack
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Atomic Blast does 50% -def upfront, which can be enhanced AND powerboosted|
Originally Posted by spiritfox
I'd think Acid Mortar.
Defender Acid Mortar does like -25% defense. With a decent amount of recharge (which is easy to get if you've got the money and hasten) you can get Acid Mortar stacked double for about 25 seconds out of every 35. With five lady grey's and a recharge you get about 36% defense debuff from each mortar for a stacked -70% defense. I don't think anything in the game beats that. |
Acid Mortar can't be powerboosted.
Someone mentioned Thorn Assault. I forgot how much -def is in that set. I guess Atomic Blast pushes Rad Blast ahead of Thorn Assault, but AB is a nuke with an endurance crash. Thorn Assault nearly matches all the -def (if not beats it) plus does it faster and more often. I think the only thing Rad has over Thorn in -def is that Thorn can't be power boosted (no access within the set or AT).
My buddy has an Earth/Thorn Dominator. I have a hard time imagining anything stacking more -defense than that AT.
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On the other hand, debuff powers which create pseudopets to do their dirty work will always stack, because the "caster" is the pseudopet, and if you stack the power, you're summoning multiple pseudopets.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Not quite.
Most "Debuffs" (powers from a Buff/Debuff powerset which's main purpose is to debuff) don't stack from the same caster. Now, most "Secondary Effects" (powers from a blast or melee set which's main purpose is to do damage, but have a debuff attached as a secondary effect) do infact stack |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
My buddy has an Earth/Thorn Dominator. I have a hard time imagining anything stacking more -defense than that AT.
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An Earth/Rad Controller can stack ungodly amounts of -Defense, with Quicksand, Stalagmites, Stone Cages, Radiation Infection, Earthquake and even Salt Crystals, Fallout and Stone Prison.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
As could a Cold/Rad defender who can use PBU ... when I replied I was thinking of PBU+Infrigidate+Sleet (or Cosmic Burst or run in and use the AB mentioned while under Heat Loss etc. etc.). The PBU Infrigidate+Sleet is around -155% or so.
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I'm sorry, but that's an overly pedantic definition of "debuffs". The "secondary effects" of blasts are also debuffs, not just powers from buff debuff sets. Because there are so many of those effects, and because so many of them do in fact stack with themselves, that does indeed mean that most debuffs self stack. The debuffs in the primary sets that don't self stack are in a minority of the game's debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Not quite.
Most "Debuffs" (powers from a Buff/Debuff powerset which's main purpose is to debuff) don't stack from the same caster. Now, most "Secondary Effects" (powers from a blast or melee set which's main purpose is to do damage, but have a debuff attached as a secondary effect) do infact stack |
A prime example of a primary debuff powerset where the debuffs all self stack is Dark Miasma. The only debuff in that set which can't self stack is Darkest Night, which is a toggle, for which the concept of self stacking is mostly nonsensical.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
That's because most of Dark Miasma's powers are actually control powers (even though it's a Buff set) that have a debuff attached as a secondary effect (cone immob, cone fear, hold). Tar Patch is a pseudo pet, as Fleeting Whisper pointed out each pseudo pet counts as a difference source, which is why they stack. Dark Servant also counts as a different source/caster, so his debuffs stack as well.
Sorry I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I was just pointing out the differences. You can put your panties back on.
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Quicksand is -25%, EQ is -10%, and all the other four earth powers are -20%. RI is -25%. Fallout is -30% but I wouldn't rely on having that. All-in-all, that's -140% not counting Fallout (-170% with). Two of those are autohit, many are AoE, some are stackable.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
An Earth/Rad Controller can stack ungodly amounts of -Defense, with Quicksand, Stalagmites, Stone Cages, Radiation Infection, Earthquake and even Salt Crystals, Fallout and Stone Prison.
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Dom values are lower, but the pets are the same (cause they're pets). So Dom gets -15% from all the earth powers, -25% QS and -10% EQ. But rather than one or two powers out of your secondary, your whole secondary will debuff defense. And the powers vary in strength from -15% to -30%. Thorn Burst is a PBAoE and Fling Thorns is a 30 foot cone, and together they do -45%.
ST options are even nicer with things like Impale doing -22.5% and already lasting nearly twice the recharge. With the Earth powers and the two AoEs, that makes -140%. So before Fallout and before any ST Thorn powers, the two sets are tied at -140%. With the ST powers, the Dom would pull far ahead because it'd only take one Ripper (which is technically a melee cone) or one Impale and something else to beat the 30% of Fallout.
Plus, Dom gets Thorntrops to more easily floor move speed, and Aim just in case you have trouble hitting to begin with. Or in situations where all that massive -DEF isn't working (like against Mako).
Food for thought.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Wow, are we in grade school here? You made an assertion I felt was wrong, and I explained why. I didn't attack you personally, and yet you resort to this kind of childish remark. I don't know about what other readers of the thread think, but I don't get the idea that I was who looked like their underwear was out of whack.
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Originally Posted by Silverado
Sorry I wasn't trying to be pedantic, I was just pointing out the differences. You can put your panties back on.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Doomguide
Well while you can certainly wait them out or deal with the problem readily enough other ways >>> rikti drones, PP doing their MoG thing etc. come to mind. There is a certain satisfaction in having one toon that can just giggle and pound the snot out of them rather than "whiff, whiff, whiff"
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Originally Posted by NeverDark
According to Surveillance, even con Rikti Drones have somewhere in the realm of 30% defense. Add that to the effects of the purple patch, and it's not unusual to find yourself floored against them. Night Widows also have considerably high defense, which they always stack with their obscene Smoke Grenades. PPD have those completely broken Flashbang Grenades, which are something like 44% debuffs.
When either defense or -toHit is present in NPCs, it tends to be pretty high. And the effects of the purple patch can be pretty steep, especially when the player doesn't have the enhancements to deal with it. |
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Indeed a fact for which my Fire/Nrg blaster is thankful. Unfortunately the fact is minimal help to many of my melee characters ... even Shockwave, for example, on my claws/SR is not an AoE attack but still typed melee/lethal. Fortunately two of her Dark Mastery powers are typed AoE, Torrent and Tenebrous Tentacles. Irony of a sort that my DM/SR brute, a set known for being single target oriented, actually has more AoE attacks than my Claws.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Just FYI: Rikti drone have no special DEFENSE v. AOE. Use AoE against them and they burst like fireworks rather quickly.
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By that i'm guessing you mean 'typed as AoE', and not 'able to hit more than one target'. Otherwise the number would appear to be the same, but Claws' AoE's are up more often and hit a bit harder.|
Originally Posted by Doomguide
Irony of a sort that my DM/SR brute, a set known for being single target oriented, actually has more AoE attacks than my Claws.
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Claws - Dark Melee
Eviscerate - Shadow Maul (melee cone)
Spin - Dark Consumption, Soul Drain (PBAoE)
Shockwave (ranged cone)
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i have to wonder if this thread was created mostly to settle a bet. Generally speaking powers that debuff defense aren't really needed as much for their -def by the time the highest valued -def effects could be fully enhanced. At that point there's only a few outliers where large amounts of -def are needed by an effectively slotted player or team. If the target has the levels of defense that you need that amount of -def, then it's really the autohit -def powers that are the rational choice, even if there are higher-valued -def powers that also require a tohit roll.
Eviscerate - Shadow Maul (melee cone)
Spin - Dark Consumption, Soul Drain (PBAoE)
Shockwave (ranged cone)
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i have to wonder if this thread was created mostly to settle a bet. Generally speaking powers that debuff defense aren't really needed as much for their -def by the time the highest valued -def effects could be fully enhanced. At that point there's only a few outliers where large amounts of -def are needed by an effectively slotted player or team. If the target has the levels of defense that you need that amount of -def, then it's really the autohit -def powers that are the rational choice, even if there are higher-valued -def powers that also require a tohit roll.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Howling Twilight only theoretically self-stacks its debuff. At the recharge cap, HT's recharge time is equal to the debuff duration. Add in cast time, and it's impossible to stack.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
A prime example of a primary debuff powerset where the debuffs all self stack is Dark Miasma. The only debuff in that set which can't self stack is Darkest Night, which is a toggle, for which the concept of self stacking is mostly nonsensical.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
*Sigh*
Do I really have to specify that all the debuffs that can possibly self-stack do?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The most powerful defense debuff is Radiation Infection, by the criteria of debuff amount x duration.
It is enhanceable to -50% defense, and it's a toggle, so it's duration is effectively infinite.
Even the most potent click power has a duration. Which is more powerful, a 100% debuff for 45 seconds, or a 50% debuff, that lasts forever?
To clarify, I'm speaking of in ONE application. Toggling RI on is one application, the same as clicking a power.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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If the recharge on the 100% is 45s or less, the 100%. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which is more powerful, a 100% debuff for 45 seconds, or a 50% debuff, that lasts forever?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Technically, it's duration is relative to how much HP the anchor has and your team make-up.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It is enhanceable to -50% defense, and it's a toggle, so it's duration is effectively infinite.
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-Stick it on a minion? It might last but it might not.
-Stick it on a Lt? Most likely will drop before half the spawn.
-Stick it on a Boss? It'll last long enough to destroy the spawn.
-Stick it on a Boss with a Stalker on the team? It won't last even a quarter of the spawn's lifespan.
Then there are so many other variables that'd make that 'infinite duration' pointless or null.
-You get mezzed?
-The anchor runs or is knocked elsewhere?
-The anchor can teleport?
-The anchor phases?
Not that I think RI is inferior, but yeah, you gotta work with it (or keep working with it when the anchor dies).
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Except not all do, and you're wrong |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
*Sigh*
Do I really have to specify that all the debuffs that can possibly self-stack do? |
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The only power you can possibly be talking about is Darkest Night, which technically could be defined as self stacking if the individual timed pulses were not flagged to not stack. That's true of all toggles.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Except not all do, and you're wrong
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Of course, there are no examples of debuff toggles that behave that way. The only buff toggles that behave that way are those which have to self stack because they buff off of multiple opponents, such as Invincibility, RttC or AAO. So assuming that's what you're talking, you'd be once again being highly pedantic.
Of course, if that's not what you're talking about, I'd love more details. Please, do enlighten.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I agree, shallow and pedantic.
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Yep that was what I was getting at ... only Dark Consumption and Soul Drain are typed as AoE attacks. All of Claws are typed Melee and Lethal including Shockwave despite being an attack covering a relatively huge area (for a scrapper attack), capable of hitting 10 foes, accepting Targeted AoE sets, etc., etc..|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
By that i'm guessing you mean 'typed as AoE', and not 'able to hit more than one target'. Otherwise the number would appear to be the same, but Claws' AoE's are up more often and hit a bit harder.
Claws - Dark Melee Eviscerate - Shadow Maul (melee cone) Spin - Dark Consumption, Soul Drain (PBAoE) Shockwave (ranged cone) ... i have to wonder if this thread was created mostly to settle a bet. Generally speaking powers that debuff defense aren't really needed as much for their -def by the time the highest valued -def effects could be fully enhanced. At that point there's only a few outliers where large amounts of -def are needed by an effectively slotted player or team. If the target has the levels of defense that you need that amount of -def, then it's really the autohit -def powers that are the rational choice, even if there are higher-valued -def powers that also require a tohit roll. |
And I would agree, particularly late game, -def is often overkill. In fact with such powers I'll be looking at them as much to see if they take defdebuff sets and hence an Achilles -resist proc as I would at the actual numerical value of the -def. The times I would be most interested in the -def values would be with a static team where you could take advantage of the -def by slotting lower amounts of accuracy in my powers. The last teaming situation I was in where that was likely true was an all Earth/* (often Earth/Storm) superteam.
If that IS true, then its got to be acid mortar because its the only power I know of that can stack itself twice on the same target.
Update me, I can't seem to find a wiki article about it.