Why is fly speed capped so low?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-12-17 17:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
My only guess would be for game play purposes. Who would want to be ground bound if they can go just as fast in air.
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This. It's a balance issue. Flight allows for full 3-D movement, and suffers in brute speed for it.
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Originally Posted by Bellen
My only guess would be for game play purposes. Who would want to be ground bound if they can go just as fast in air.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
The devs are scared everyone would pick fly over other powers if fly were reasonably fast.
They fail to take into account the fact that travel sets have 4 powers in them and that players might choose a travel pool for other powers instead of just the travel power.
Fly could easily be moved up to 70-75 mph cap ( via cap raise and higher base value) without the world ending. Never happen though.
*edit* I could sympathize with the "balance" line of doublespeak if this game had any real danger in traveling around, but that really isn't a huge issue. Flying out of range of melee is helpful but it isn't the end all be all of overpoweredness.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
The answer I remember the devs saying was server stability. The servers can only handle so much speed with full 3-D movement.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
That has been fixed according to Castle. The only thing standing in the way of a fly speed buff is paranoia.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Lower speed is the trade off on flight in return for no limitations on where you can go with it.
SS has no vertical ability, but provides stealth. You can avoid agro with it, but good luck navigating the Shadow Shard, Grandville or Terra Volta.
SJ is just as fast and has vertical movement, but you run the risk of landing in the middle of a mob you didn't see.
TP is the fastest straight line travel power, which also has no limitaion on where you can go with it, in return it is the only travel power that you can run out of end using.
Flight has none of those disadvantages, so it's speed is capped lower. You can go literally anywhere with no danger of drawing agro at all, it's only fair that it give something up in return for that. What it gives up is speed.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'm accually a big proponent of fly getting a buff in overall speed. I personally feel at this phase in the game, it being as slow as it is, is no longer a balancing featrue and could infact be determental to the power.
I mean, now adays,everyone can fly. It's given away freely in Safeguards and MM's. You get jet packs are temp powers from missions. You can BUY jet packs cheaply on ether side. (although i think you need to be 40 to get a pack hero side... unless there's a vender outside the sharde i don't know about.)
When you mix in all the free flighing powers with the fact ever other travel powers is ALOT faster then fly out of the box, and stays that way the whole time, fly has really lost it's luster, IMO, and i think giving the accually power pool version of fly a speed bouse is justified. I mean, you could make it 65, to 70 mph and it'd STILL be the slowest travel in the game, but not painfully slow like it is now.
I say raise the speed cap! It's not going to hurt anything! You have suppression, and crasy suppresion in PvP zones, so it won't brakethe game in that area. The only thing it'll change is letting us flyers be the second to last people at door missions instead of dead last like we are now.
And really, shouldn't we be faster then travel powerless people who are just using ninja run and sprint???? Heh.
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That WAS true, but the games landscape has changed over the years. With flight packs being handed out, or sold for beans, anyone can have unlimited free vertical movement, while retaining the raw speed of there own travel power, and get the side benefits of fly.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Lower speed is the trade off on flight in return for no limitations on where you can go with it.
SS has no vertical ability, but provides stealth. You can avoid agro with it, but good luck navigating the Shadow Shard, Grandville or Terra Volta. SJ is just as fast and has vertical movement, but you run the risk of landing in the middle of a mob you didn't see. TP is the fastest straight line travel power, which also has no limitaion on where you can go with it, in return it is the only travel power that you can run out of end using. Flight has none of those disadvantages, so it's speed is capped lower. You can go literally anywhere with no danger of drawing agro at all, it's only fair that it give something up in return for that. What it gives up is speed. |
The only TP power in the game that gains no beneifs from temp travel powers IS fly, the slowest travel power by far in the game. IMO, that warnest us alittle more top speed...
Hey, a man can dream can't he??
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Flight packs can't be enhanced for more speed, while Flight can.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
That WAS true, but the games landscape has changed over the years. With flight packs being handed out, or sold for beans, anyone can have unlimited free vertical movement, while retaining the raw speed of there own travel power, and get the side benefits of fly.
The only TP power in the game that gains no beneifs from temp travel powers IS fly, the slowest travel power by far in the game. IMO, that warnest us alittle more top speed... Hey, a man can dream can't he?? |
Flight can make use out of the Zero-G pack, if it needs a burst of speed.
And while safety is certainly one of the eases of Flight, another is just straight ease of use. It's the only travel power in the game that you can set yourself to move forward at altitude, walk away from the computer to take a bio break/answer the door/make a sandwich, and come back and still be moving forward towards your goal.
No other travel power is that easy.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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You CAN enhance the flight packs with some powers, IIRC, swit, quickness, syphone speed, ect ect, and i'd hardly consider the zero g pack fast, but that's nigher here nor there really. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Flight packs can't be enhanced for more speed, while Flight can.
Flight can make use out of the Zero-G pack, if it needs a burst of speed. And while safety is certainly one of the eases of Flight, another is just straight ease of use. It's the only travel power in the game that you can set yourself to move forward at altitude, walk away from the computer to take a bio break/answer the door/make a sandwich, and come back and still be moving forward towards your goal. No other travel power is that easy. |
My argument still stands that, other travel powers getalot more from temp travel then flight does, and even some combanations of temp powers and PP powers, and ninja run (granted you have to by it) is faster then fly. Being easier to use, IMO, is not justification for being 20 mph slower(round a bout) then the next fastest TP. (superjump)
I'm not asking for much here... i'm still willing to be the slowest... just not slower then none travel power builds...
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Just so you'll know. The Temp flight powers are a lot slower than un-enhanced Fly at level 6. I think they start out at around 25mph, while Fly does around 38 or 40 mph. Also, you're speed is greatly reduced if you switch from Super Speed (or Super Jump) to a flight pack. |
Originally Posted by KingSnake
You CAN enhance the flight packs with some powers, IIRC, swit, quickness, syphone speed, ect ect, and i'd hardly consider the zero g pack fast, but that's nigher here nor there really.
My argument still stands that, other travel powers getalot more from temp travel then flight does, and even some combanations of temp powers and PP powers, and ninja run (granted you have to by it) is faster then fly. Being easier to use, IMO, is not justification for being 20 mph slower(round a bout) then the next fastest TP. (superjump) I'm not asking for much here... i'm still willing to be the slowest... just not slower then none travel power builds... |
The only "benefit" a Super Speeder gets from a flight pack is the ability to go over some otherwise impassible obstacles.
Also, Aett Thorn was talking about the Temp powers not being able to use enhancements. There is a difference between Enhancements and Buffs. Your argument does not still stand.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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I can't count the number of times I have died by monster ambush on landing in super jump. Superjump is fastest overall and uses little endurance, but by far the most dangerous. |
Originally Posted by Lohenien
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*edit* I could sympathize with the "balance" line of doublespeak if this game had any real danger in traveling around, but that really isn't a huge issue. Flying out of range of melee is helpful but it isn't the end all be all of overpoweredness. |
My favorite is hover/transport combo. I don't bother with fly on most toons.
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Why do people insist that superjump is fastest overall?|
Originally Posted by Bellen
I can't count the number of times I have died by monster ambush on landing in super jump. Superjump is fastest overall and uses little endurance, but by far the most dangerous.
My favorite is hover/transport combo. I don't bother with fly on most toons. |
Teleport, unenhanced, allows for faster travel than superspeed at the hard cap. Once it's enhanced, nothing can keep up. Add boost range... *phew*
Ok, lag does kill teleport. And it is a pain to use until you learn the shift+click bind. If you run a good connection, know the bind, and want to move fast, then teleport should be a no brainer.
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It's not capped low. In fact, it's the fastest power in the game.
Except for a few other special powers which are allowed to be faster to make up for their rather severe limitations, of course. But except for those two (or three if you want to count Teleport) special cases, Fly is the king of speed.
Well, that's one way of looking at it. I guess you could turn it around and look at it negatively if you were so inclined.
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Grandville has convenient elevators all over the place to get you up when you're not already on the top. They're not as obnoxiously abundant as the ones in Faultline, but they're there... Speaking of which, anyone else unfortunate enough to have fallen into the cracks of the old Faultline with Super Speed?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
SS has no vertical ability, but provides stealth. You can avoid agro with it, but good luck navigating the Shadow Shard, Grandville or Terra Volta.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Just so you'll know. The Temp flight powers are a lot slower than un-enhanced Fly at level 6. I think they start out at around 25mph, while Fly does around 38 or 40 mph. Also, you're speed is greatly reduced if you switch from Super Speed (or Super Jump) to a flight pack.
The only "benefit" a Super Speeder gets from a flight pack is the ability to go over some otherwise impassible obstacles. Also, Aett Thorn was talking about the Temp powers not being able to use enhancements. There is a difference between Enhancements and Buffs. Your argument does not still stand. |
My argument is that superspeed and superjump useing people are benefited more by the massive availiablity of tempery travel powers then flyers are. And it's still very much valid. The very REASON superspeed is as fast as it is, is it's lack of vertical movement. The temp travel powers totally negate that. As in, completely not an issue ANYMORE, EVER so long as you don't waste it, that is, until you can just buy it. LOL. Superjump needs very little beneft anyways as, IMO of course, it's the best all around travel power, hands down. But in the rare instences superjump isn't good enough, say, in the sharde (which, if you learn the shard, it's plenty) the flight pack makes up for it's weakness. Or even if you need to go afk for a sec, you have a flight pack to, to simulate the benefit of a flyers ability to set a course and go get a drink.
But fly, it has no real way to over come it's one limiting factor, like the others, that being speed.
And really, noones telling me WHY a bump in maximue speed to say, 65 MPH, still leaving it in 3rd place by.... 12, 13 MPH would brake ANYTHING? Why shouldn't they speed it up? Why does it have to be that slow? It's vertical reach is no longer and exclusive perk of flying... EVERYONE CAN FLY NOW. For the WHOLE GAME if they wanted too, in some shape or another. So why can't the people who accually still train fly be thrown a bone, since everyone else has been thrown flight packs in large numbers???
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My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
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U MAD!|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
My argument is that superspeed and superjump useing people are benefited more by the massive availiablity of tempery travel powers then flyers are. And it's still very much valid. The very REASON superspeed is as fast as it is, is it's lack of vertical movement. The temp travel powers totally negate that. As in, completely not an issue ANYMORE, EVER so long as you don't waste it, that is, until you can just buy it. LOL. Superjump needs very little beneft anyways as, IMO of course, it's the best all around travel power, hands down. But in the rare instences superjump isn't good enough, say, in the sharde (which, if you learn the shard, it's plenty) the flight pack makes up for it's weakness. Or even if you need to go afk for a sec, you have a flight pack to, to simulate the benefit of a flyers ability to set a course and go get a drink.
But fly, it has no real way to over come it's one limiting factor, like the others, that being speed. And really, noones telling me WHY a bump in maximue speed to say, 65 MPH, still leaving it in 3rd place by.... 12, 13 MPH would brake ANYTHING? Why shouldn't they speed it up? Why does it have to be that slow? It's vertical reach is no longer and exclusive perk of flying... EVERYONE CAN FLY NOW. For the WHOLE GAME if they wanted too, in some shape or another. So why can't the people who accually still train fly be thrown a bone, since everyone else has been thrown flight packs in large numbers??? |
Seriously, don't let someone's opinion work you up so bad that you can't type coherently.
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LMAO. No no no. I'm not mad. Far form it. (i'm in a fairly good mood too atm. work is going smoothly for a friday, for onec.)|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
U MAD!
Seriously, don't let someone's opinion work you up so bad that you can't type coherently. |
What you see here, is, i'm sad to say, just how i type. I'm always incoherent... I get asked often if english is my 2nd language on the forums i post on. (it's...not...)
I'm dyslexic. And when i try and type something quickly, all hell brakes lose. Since I typically post here at work, inbetween project, i'm always kind of rushing, so, ta da! This is what you get.
Thanks for your concern though. It's appreactied!
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My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
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I wanted to parse this out as a separate reply, because I think I have valid reasoning for why it has to be so much slower than the others.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
And really, noones telling me WHY a bump in maximue speed to say, 65 MPH, still leaving it in 3rd place by.... 12, 13 MPH would brake ANYTHING? Why shouldn't they speed it up? Why does it have to be that slow?
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The shortest distance between two points is always a straight line. The farther you veer from a straight line, the faster you must go to keep your travel time down. Simple math/physics here.
Fly allows you to follow that straight line closest and therefor has a high relative speed. If all the travel powers were balanced so that they always get from point A to point B in the same time based on the obstacles they must circumvent, then fly would be slowest, superjump a good deal faster, and superspeed faster than that. Said another way, balanced solely around travel time, fly would have to be the slowest moving. I'll call this the travel time balance point.
Now take into account the other drawbacks. Superspeed has to go around enemies. Superjump can go over most enemies, but still gets placed in harms way periodically. Fly has no such drawback. Balance again occurs. Superspeed gets stealth as a balance against jump, and fly suffers more speed penalties. I'll call this the travel risk balance point.
As you can see, fly has its speed reduced twice as a result of balance. If you increase its speed, even to 65 as suggested, you negate one of the two balance points I mentioned and fly becomes the clear best choice.
I'll also argue against the fact that "everyone can fly now." The jet packs that are purchasable/earn-able are much slower than fly is. Just because everyone can fly, doesn't mean they're not being penalized for the means by which they fly.
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This doesn't ring true for me at all. I've never landed in an enemy group, let alone die from it.
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Originally Posted by Bellen
I can't count the number of times I have died by monster ambush on landing in super jump. Superjump is fastest overall and uses little endurance, but by far the most dangerous.
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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I wanted to parse this out as a separate reply, because I think I have valid reasoning for why it has to be so much slower than the others.
The shortest distance between two points is always a straight line. The farther you veer from a straight line, the faster you must go to keep your travel time down. Simple math/physics here. Fly allows you to follow that straight line closest and therefor has a high relative speed. If all the travel powers were balanced so that they always get from point A to point B in the same time based on the obstacles they must circumvent, then fly would be slowest, superjump a good deal faster, and superspeed faster than that. Said another way, balanced solely around travel time, fly would have to be the slowest moving. I'll call this the travel time balance point. Now take into account the other drawbacks. Superspeed has to go around enemies. Superjump can go over most enemies, but still gets placed in harms way periodically. Fly has no such drawback. Balance again occurs. Superspeed gets stealth as a balance against jump, and fly suffers more speed penalties. I'll call this the travel risk balance point. As you can see, fly has its speed reduced twice as a result of balance. If you increase its speed, even to 65 as suggested, you negate one of the two balance points I mentioned and fly becomes the clear best choice. I'll also argue against the fact that "everyone can fly now." The jet packs that are purchasable/earn-able are much slower than fly is. Just because everyone can fly, doesn't mean they're not being penalized for the means by which they fly. |
You do make a decent arguement. But my ingame expearince has born out, over the last 6 years, (give or take) that, even before the free flight packs got handed out, my flyers, who always slotted for speed, were always one of the last people to a mission, when everyone started out at the same starting point. Without fail. Now before, i was on board with the argument that it was the safest and most versital travel power, so it had to be the slowest. But now are different. It's versitially is gone. A speeder can zig zag, then, if meet with a LONG detore, justfly over it and keep trucking. It's limiting factor, it's vertical movement, is moot at this point. Adding even more to it's over all speed. Superjump, benefits less from the jet packs, but still does, to an extent, as i explained before. Using the temp travel packs in tandom with your normal travel power, add futher improvement to the existing power. Even teleport, can kick on the flight pack, to stay in the air while you change direction. But flight doesn't benefit at all in any way.
So as it stands now, the other travel powers have access to tools that make them even faster and safter, but fly does not. A flyer is going to be nearly dead last every time in terms of travel with facing off anyone in a race that has access to any other TP and a flight pack. Maybe 2 zones out of all the zones in the game, this will not always hold try i bet. Grandville and the Sharde. Everywere else, the flyers are dead last.
What i'm saying is, the dynamic of in game travel has changed alot since the games release, and maybe the dev's should take another look fly, in light of that fact. If they still think it's fast enough, then, well, it's there game. And i'll keep flying on hero/villians who's concept demands it. It's all good. Just asking. No harm in that.
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I also don't see this getting changed again. Castle just looked at this and upped the base speed for Fly and Hover, so I would guess that they are "happy" with where it's at. I do wish I could go a little faster than 60 MPH sometimes, but Flight is a pretty nice power as is. As Aett said, you can set your destination and go away for a little. I use it all the time if I need to get a drink, etc., and sometimes get annoyed when I can't do this on my SJ or SS characters.
I do wish enhancements could do a little more for Hover, as you still can't get up to Sprint speeds after investing in the Fitness pool and tossing two extra slots in hover, but I guess that's the drawback of the 3D movement, extra defense from mobs (both by defense to all and being out of reach of melee). And it's still a LOT better than it used to be... I don't plop from Hover to Sprint between mobs much anymore.
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The temp fly powers also totally negate the speed buff from Super Speed as well. As in, completely not buffed anymore, ever, so long as the Fly power is active.|
Originally Posted by KingSnake
The very REASON superspeed is as fast as it is, is it's lack of vertical movement. The temp travel powers totally negate that. As in, completely not an issue ANYMORE, EVER so long as you don't waste it, that is, until you can just buy it.
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So, you're still flying at around 25mph to get over that one obstacle that the GvE jump pack (in conjunction with Super Speed) would have gotten you over in half the time.
The Fly power from the Flight Power Pool is still faster than the temp fly powers. That's un-enhanced (Buffs don't count).
And, by your argument, Super Speed's cap should be lowered because it no longer has to deal with the vertical handicap.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
All cool kidz on the block have SS and stealth IO in Sprint.
I was messing around with Mids' Hero designer and looking at how fast I could get speeds. I understand why Super Speed's speed is capped at 92MPH (I was able to get it to 185MPH with IOs/sets or so says the designer *drools* if only...), but I don't understand why Flight speed is capped at 58.6 MPH. So far with max IOs/Sets I've only been able to get it to 68.3 MPH so I don't see why they would cap it when it's still not even close to SS's speed cap.