Here we go again...

This is one of the things that tends to give Ultimo_ a bad reputation and attract flames to his threads: stating things that are not only very wrong, but things he can easily test for himself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimo_ As I said in my OP, Force Bolt is of limited use, as it only affects Lts and Minions reliably. Even then, it misses periodically, only affects one target and uses more endurance than a toggle since it's an attack. Relying on it as a defense is unwise and relatively ineffective.

There are almost no bosses that can't be sent flying with FB. Actually, none come to mind offhand, but there may be one or two somewhere that are mobile and unaffected by it. As already mentioned, you can even slot it to reach mag 50 KB; enough to knock even most AV's and EB's on their tuckuses. i've used FB to keep many bosses almost permanently out of fights. And that's just with a single accuracy enhancer.

Quote:

PFF is a strange one, and I often wonder what it's doing at Tier 1. As you say, it's a good emergency button, but even it is of limited use against AVs or EBs (or even just regular bosses) who often have better than 20% chances to hit you right through it.

...Yeah, 20% chance to hit bosses. Well, there are Malta Gunslingers and Rulaaru eyeballs, but other than that i can't think of anything that would even come close to 20% without outside assistance. But then this bizarre misunderstanding of Ultimo_'s regarding PFF and defense in general was covered in his thread about how his FF/Energy Def couldn't defeat anything without running out of endurance and/or getting killed a number of months back. Then again, the actual numbers for PFF were covered in an earlier post here.

He made the same sort of assertions about how PFF offered little defense against enemies even though it's easy to check that in game just by looking at combat logs or the power numbers when in use. i even took up the challenge, leveled up a FF/Energy Defender to the same level as his in a few hours, took on the same AE arc as him and had no issues at all. All solo. That was even while deliberately handicapping myself with regards to slotting to make sure i didn't have an unfair advantage by spending 15 minutes in WW to get the funding for DO's. (My early missions with heroes i tend to focus on fighting Hellions and CoT so that i can get salvage drops that when sold on the market easily cover standard enhancement costs.)

The problem with making exaggerated, inaccurate and downright false claims about how powers work in the AT forums is that many of the people who read and post in here know better. Yet Ultimo_ does it again and again. Even when i agree with his general position i have difficulty supporting Ultimo_'s arguments because they nearly always are filled with inaccuracies and distortions. And even after it's been explained in exhaustive detail he'll come back and post the same assertions a few months later.

FWIW, i would like to see FF become my useful solo and offensively. There have been many suggestions made in previous threads on this very topic that were based in actual numbers and accurate game mechanics. i'm not sure why Ultimo_ doesn't revive or copy from one of those threads instead of making threads that are just wrong in many of their assumptions. FF could use a boost, but it's more likely to get it from the efforts of advocates who know how the set works in actual play.

I just want to discuss the detention field for a moment, and really have the same view as Panzer does.

Over the weekend, I was part of a Doc Q TF. It is moderately well know that the Rularru Wisps Overlords have this power, and use it frequently.

Take the team tank out of the fight, and all of a sudden the rest of the team is in a lot more bother.

Its the same with players using it. Phase an AV and wipe out his minions, then everyone can focus on the AV. Double pull on a STF is another great example he used.

Despite that my higbie FF doesn't have the power, it came below other possibilities in my thoughts of usefulness, but my sonic does have sonic cage and she has used it in those osrt of situations when teamed, and uses it often on the rare occasions she is soloing.

General: At one point they fixed Detention Field to cease working on AV's; did they change it back?

Ultimo: By many definitions your original post was trolling. You're very close to putting the "No disagreeing with OP" tag on your thread... in which case, what you really want is a webpage, with no comments.

My original post was intended to open a discussion of ideas. We started off that way, but we're starting to diverge into the usual "you don't know what youre talking about" rant. You can't tell me the things I've seen first hand didn't happen.

MANY bosses are immune to Force Bolt. Now, I'll admit, I've never slotted it for knockback; I was under the impression that only increased the knockcback distance. IF it will increase the power of the knockback so it will work on more powerful foes, that's different. Either way, it remains a limited defense. It remains a single target, endurance intensive "defense."

My L35 Defender is regularly getting hit right through his PFF when in the Rikti Warzone. Orange conn Rikti Mesmerists are getting a 26% chance to hit me, even with the PFF and Manuevers running. That said, I really don't have a problem with PFF, as I already said. It just strikes me as a higher tier power, as it is with Masterminds.

I agree, Detention field can be a useful power, but as I've described it usually isn't. That you can disable the boss for a few seconds is of little help if you are unable to withstand his cronies or can't defeat them fast enough. You can find a corner circumstance for any power.

I'm delighted to hear alternative ideas, and if someone thinks I've made a bad suggestion, I'm delighted to hear it. The problem is that so many posters just take the route Schim is taking and attacking ME rather than my ideas. My original post was to make a suggestion, the hybrid click/toggle thing. That's not trolling, it's a new idea.

I do solo primarily. The thing is that my Defender has to overcome the same challenges as my Scrapper, and often can't. This is a discrepancy I'm hoping to see mitigated.

I'll address Schismatrix in more detail, and that will hopefully put an end to that.

I can practically name everyone (not AV class) immune to a moderately slotted FB:

Longbow Ballistas
Miscellaneous other Longbow bosses, especially the Tanks.

That's about it. I use it liberally with my MM (whose FB is no better than a Defenders) and I'm always taken aback whenever I'm unable to kb a foe.

Examples not an exaustive list.

(note AE foes not included as you can easily make them resistant at any of minion/lt/boss if the author wishes)

Bosses Vulnerable to Knockback

Low level
Bone Daddies
Damned
Eidelons
Lead Outcasts (Shocker, Scorcher, Freezer)
Clockwork
Circle
Council
Cobras
Arachnos
Longbow

Bosses with partial immunity - when their armour is toggled on
Ogres (I'm not sure about Calibans)
Lead Bricks
Mu Guardians (fly type)


Mid level
Vulnerable
BP Totems
CoT
Council
Freaks
Jumpbots
DE
Family
Warriors

Bosses with some degree of immunity
BP masks (do get knocked back, but they can fire again quickly due to their fly)
Skyraider Sky Skiffs (fly type)

High Level
Vulnerable
Nemesis Warhulks/Fake Nem
Some Longbow
Most Arachnos
Dark Ring Mistresses
Preatorian Bosses
Malta Gunslingers
Vanguard
Cot Death Mages/Succubi
Freaks

Some immunity
Certain Longbow
Mu Guardians (fly type)
Master Illusionists (fly type)
Malta Zeus (I do get to overcome the protection even on a claws scrapper but not reliably)

The simple fact is that most types of bosses have no protection versus knockback/down. Im basing this list on some 2000+ hours on Cat using focus, which is 0.67 Mag. (and obviously experience with other forms)

If he can do it with a low Mag, then any AT's force bolt can.

I'd like to see a change to the Defender inherant to something called Focus.

This would allow the Defenders Primary to have different modifiers to his
Primary dependant on whether he's in a team or solo.

In a team as is.

When solo he's able to focus his attention on himself rather than spread his powers across a team and as such his powers are more powerful for less Endurance.

For example in the case of FF Dispersion Bubble would give better defence by percentage X for reduced End.
Repulsion Bomb shorter recharge etc

With the boost to personal effecting powers it would improve soloing.

Applying this to other sets should assist all defender to solo.

Ultimo - how is this different than the myriad other posts you've made about FF defenders? If you don't like it, just delete it and reroll. Pretty simple.

You've got to know by now that people regard you with a jaundiced viewpoint because you say essentially same thing over and over again. And nothing they post seem to sway you even though they bring in mounds of evidence.

I think I offered something constructive in the last iteration of this same post. Not going to make the same mistake twice.

Thank you, Panzerwaffen, for finding that.

I wish I'd copied out my "ignore" list before we switched boards. . . coulda saved me a lot of time in this thread.

No, you are missing the whole point so you can rant and rave about how I apparently don't know anything about the game. Allow me to reiterate.

This thread is about an IDEA I've had. Its purpose is to help Defender survivability, which IS an issue, as it has been discussed many times in the past, by posters other than myself, even in this very thread.


The idea is that the two main defensive bubbles (Deflection and Insulation Shield) operate as both clicks and toggles, depending on the target. If the Defender targets an ally, it's a click effect. If he targets himself, it operates as a toggle, protecting the Defender.

This may require a slight recalibration of the defense provided by the bubbles, but that would be determined through playtesting.

THIS is what we're supposed to be discussing. Telling me my perceptions are wrong says nothing about the idea. Telling others how wrong I am does not discuss the idea. Discussing old threads does not discuss the current idea. You seem to be simply attempting to derail the thread rather than discussing the idea or contributing one of your own.

I find these threads highly amusing. I have a FF/nrg myself, and I always have to wonder just how Ultimo must have built his defender to have such problems. I softcapped mine to ranged once I hit 50, but I played the heck out of it with just the defence that dispersion bubble and maneuvers gave me for a long time before I ever hit the magic 45%.

I have to wonder, because I find so much of my experience flatly contradicting Ultimo's. As a FF/nrg I have three damaging AoEs. Between all of that I can *easily* kill the spawn surrounding a boss before he unphases - esepcially since opening with repulsion bomb puts everyone including the boss on their butts right off the bat. I've juggled scads of bosses on their rears in a corner with force bolt until they died, and it's a very rare case that I find a boss that tactic won't work on. Even before I soft capped my ranged defence, I could solo just fine - not nearly as fast or on as high a difficulty setting as a blaster or scrapper, of course, but without any real difficulty. Insps dropped more than fast enough to top up my health or end occasionally, and a pair of purples would cap my defense for plenty long enough to defuse any out-of-control situations (which were uncommon solo - detention field and force bolt are wonderful precision tools. It's on teams where things more easily get chaotic).

I've done it over and over again - repulsion bomb -> jump in close -> explosive blast -> energy torrent and pick off the weakened foes as they stand back up, force bolting as needed. If there's a boss, cage him after the AoEs go off and force bolt the heck out of him once the cage drops. End result, one dead spawn and I've taken perhaps 2 or 3 ranged hits, tops. This isn't theorycrafting - I've done this many times. It works. I don't run out of endurance before I clear the spawn, and they don't do very much damage to me either. Now, I'm not exactly fighting 8 man spawns of +3s here, but this is plenty sufficient to solo on a reasonable difficulty setting.

QR

Ultimo, if you post your build I can give advice on it.