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There's no reason why it's avoided. What you see most in terms of fire/kin builds are those that are geared to farming. Fire/kins (for normal play, not farms) will play just fine with fly with one caveat: the immobilize protection provided by combat jumping is valuable. The most irritating thing for a kinetics character is being rooted and being unable to be in the right position to use a heal or get end.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Just curious, but in a bit over 50 fire/kin posts I have yet to see one build using flight. I've seen a couple with both superspeed and super jump, but none with fly. Is there some reason it is avoided?
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However, if you understand this weakness and play around it (keep some breakfrees handy), there's no reason why you can't have a good build with fly.
There are two additional reasons why you see this.
1) Hot Feet can only be activated while on the ground. You can toggle on Hover/Flight after that but some people don't like the inconvenience.
2) Since a lot of Fire/Kins are farmers, a lot tend to go with the /Earth Mastery Epic Pool to get a good AoE attack and good S/L Defense. The cavaet is that Fissure can only be used while grounded.
Mine does.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Yeah, but you're just a controller newb. What do you know :P
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Mine does.
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Mine does, too. I love having Air Superiority as a single-target attack. My Fire/Kin generally stays on the ground except when traveling.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Mine does.
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But then, I'm not a farmer. (I guess I'm a city boy.)
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I do too. Because I have 60+ months on my account, I can take any travel power without having to take the prerequisite. So I can take combat jump and fly with ease. Of course, my Fire / Kin has only made it to level 12 three times and is now again at level 6, so how it works in end game, I'll have to let you know. In the past (before 60 months) I've always used Air Superiorty for its knockdown and single target damage. I will also slot up with I/O sets that offer bonuses to resist holds and resist immob. to offset not having combat jump and acrobat. |
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Mine does.
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Demonfest - 50 - Demon / Thermal Mastermind
Covered Shadow - 50 - Dark Melee / Shield Scrapper
Almost all of the controllers have Fly, mostly because I am very very lazy. I can aim for the mission beacon and then tab over, check my e-mail or post with you knuckleheads.
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Fire/Kin builds are very tight (powers and slot constrained) to begin with, so to take Hover (for most people) and then Fly is really tough to fit in all the other desirable powers, farm builds or not.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Just curious, but in a bit over 50 fire/kin posts I have yet to see one build using flight. I've seen a couple with both superspeed and super jump, but none with fly. Is there some reason it is avoided?
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Still it can be done, but as many of the other posters have pointed out, there is a lot of synergy between non flight powers and fire/kins.
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I'm not so sure I agree 100% with this post. (a slight nitpick)|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Fire/Kin builds are very tight (powers and slot constrained) to begin with, so to take Hover (for most people) and then Fly is really tough to fit in all the other desirable powers, farm builds or not.
Still it can be done, but as many of the other posters have pointed out, there is a lot of synergy between non flight powers and fire/kins. |
Farm builds with the fighting pool can be tight, but to be quite honest a standard build can easily fit two powers from a travel pool and three from fitness quite easy and still have room for a pool. Unless you are going for some softcapping or resistance stacking I really don't find basic pve fire/kin too tight.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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If you are going for softcapping, is combat jumping really any better than hover? Neither one adds any significant defense, so the benefit would have to come from set slotting and all travel powers take essentially identical sets, or am I missing something?|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Unless you are going for some softcapping or resistance stacking I really don't find basic pve fire/kin too tight.
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The immobilization protection and need to be on the ground for Fissure is a decent reason to me, but being tight on powers doesn't make sense to me. Super Jump requires the exact same two slots as fly. If you're farming, you really don't need to travel over vast distances which is where super jump has its advantage over fly. How does being short on slots come into play?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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A fire/kin's efficiency is highest when within hotfeet range, since you want to be close enough for fulcrum shift to give the greatest damage boost. Of course transfusion and transference encourage being alot closer than other secondaries too.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
If you are going for softcapping, is combat jumping really any better than hover? Neither one adds any significant defense, so the benefit would have to come from set slotting and all travel powers take essentially identical sets, or am I missing something?
The immobilization protection and need to be on the ground for Fissure is a decent reason to me, but being tight on powers doesn't make sense to me. Super Jump requires the exact same two slots as fly. If you're farming, you really don't need to travel over vast distances which is where super jump has its advantage over fly. How does being short on slots come into play? |
Being in hover or fly isn't the best use of hotfeet.
Additionally, cinders is pbaoe, so it starts making sense to work the tough/weave route, although my fire/kin isn't built that way. The modern game of slotting also encourages def and recharge bonus builds, so +def is one of the primary routes to a build that can close in well, since you can slot the LotG +7.5 and other sets. Of course then hasten is a must, and combat jump is low end use defense as well.
Flight is the slowest travel power but the safest, but if you really want to maximize fire/kin damage output, it helps to be in close, close in fast and maneuver around fast. Doing the bunny hop into a mob with flashfire activating isn't very easy with flight.
Again, it's not just farming builds that have a philosophy of putting out big damage on Fire/kins. The best mez is a defeated mob, if you want to look at it from a control point of view. Add SB/ID and free powers/slots aren't as easy to get.
Edit: if you have the 60 month vet power, taking flight in lieu of SS or SJ would work, but still allow CJ and hasten to be taken as well.
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Again, slight disagreement here. There are plenty of controller powers that are pbaoe but that in no way means you should or have to go tough/weave. In a teaming build, especially one that teams with a good tank tough/weave is pretty inconsequential. Now I won't argue the point if we're talking a solo build, but I'd still argue in those circumstances good control IS your resistance/defense.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
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Additionally, cinders is pbaoe, so it starts making sense to work the tough/weave route, although my fire/kin isn't built that way. The modern game of slotting also encourages def and recharge bonus builds, so +def is one of the primary routes to a build that can close in well, since you can slot the LotG +7.5 and other sets. Of course then hasten is a must, and combat jump is low end use defense as well. Again, it's not just farming builds that have a philosophy of putting out big damage on Fire/kins. The best mez is a defeated mob, if you want to look at it from a control point of view. Add SB/ID and free powers/slots aren't as easy to get. Edit: if you have the 60 month vet power, taking flight in lieu of SS or SJ would work, but still allow CJ and hasten to be taken as well. |
Also, the best control is a dead enemy means that every AT should play like a blaster and to heck with other means of playing. When talking about controllers in general I shy away from those statements. Now just talking about fire/kins, ok I can see the point, but a fire/kin doesn't have to play like a scrapper/blaster etc. They can play pure support (and quite well, I'd add) and be just as good as any other controller combo.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I don't think that deviation from the big numbers and getting in close means that a fire/kin is useless, it's just that the powersets tend to encourage it. Even as a fire/kin, there's no rule that says you can't be support as well as contributing damage up close.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Again, slight disagreement here. There are plenty of controller powers that are pbaoe but that in no way means you should or have to go tough/weave. In a teaming build, especially one that teams with a good tank tough/weave is pretty inconsequential. Now I won't argue the point if we're talking a solo build, but I'd still argue in those circumstances good control IS your resistance/defense.
Also, the best control is a dead enemy means that every AT should play like a blaster and to heck with other means of playing. When talking about controllers in general I shy away from those statements. Now just talking about fire/kins, ok I can see the point, but a fire/kin doesn't have to play like a scrapper/blaster etc. They can play pure support (and quite well, I'd add) and be just as good as any other controller combo. |
If your build suits your style of play as well as your team's, then I don't see a point to changing it.
The teams I play with (I rarely solo and rarely farm) tend to try and kill each other by bringing as much aggro into one spot as possible, so having +def and getting in close really helps to keep the momentum going. Its a steamroller mentality and doesn't suit everyone, that's for sure.
If you've ever run with my crew you'd know we understand the concept of steamrolling. 
I'd still argue that with a well balanced team (even a rolling team) tough/weave or min/maxing def or stacking resists on a fire/kin isn't really that necessary. It's nice but not vital.
Edit- I'm not sure if the "your playstyle" was intended to be generic or me particularly, but I'm not referring to a personal playstyle. My posts are talking about controllers in general. [further edit for clarity] In other words I have some controller builds that play very aggressive like my fire/kin's farm build or some that play passive like my earth/TA and all points in between, including my fire/kins team build. All I'm saying is that you (generic you) can't make blanket statements that fire/kins shouldn't take flight and/or they really need the fighting pool, because they don't.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I agree with you and actually will argue that having leadership, particularly tactics, is by far a much better option if you're teaming. I've seen so many farm builds with tough/weave bite the dust on TFs that it isn't even funny. How do they die? Cascading defense failure + inability to hit their heal.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Again, slight disagreement here. There are plenty of controller powers that are pbaoe but that in no way means you should or have to go tough/weave. In a teaming build, especially one that teams with a good tank tough/weave is pretty inconsequential.
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So many of these builds are so used the relatively controlled conditions on a farm that they get arrogant and take the same builds outside the setting. All of a sudden, exotic damage types, loss of key set bonuses and the inability to hit stuff just make them almost dead weight, especially since many of them don't have speed boost or ID.
Now don't get me wrong, if a farm build is purpled out quite a bit, the accuracy issues is mitigated quite a bit, but the budget farm builds still suffer quite a bit and they're still missing key buffs.
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Um, the discussion is focused on the idea of why fly isn't in most of the published fire/kin builds. I think you're reading more into it as a personal stake as such.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
If you've ever run with my crew you'd know we understand the concept of steamrolling.
I'd still argue that with a well balanced team (even a rolling team) tough/weave or min/maxing def or stacking resists on a fire/kin isn't really that necessary. It's nice but not vital. Edit- I'm not sure if the "your playstyle" was intended to be generic or me particularly, but I'm not referring to a personal playstyle. My posts are talking about controllers in general. [further edit for clarity] In other words I have some controller builds that play very aggressive like my fire/kin's farm build or some that play passive like my earth/TA and all points in between, including my fire/kins team build. All I'm saying is that you (generic you) can't make blanket statements that fire/kins shouldn't take flight and/or they really need the fighting pool, because they don't. |
I don't think the OP or anyone else was bringing other powersets or ATs or even talking about the usefulness of fly. All I was pointing out was that using a farm build or soloing wasn't the only thing to look at when looking at non fly builds.
My fire/kin didn't take tough/weave and went the leadership route, yet still doesn't have fly. It's still a tight build.
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Funny, my fire/kins team build doesn't have fighting either, took three in leadership, has flight and I wouldn't call it a tight build at all......now fire/storm....that's a tight one.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
My fire/kin didn't take tough/weave and went the leadership route, yet still doesn't have fly. It's still a tight build.
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Guess we're just looking at different definitions of tight.
And not to worry, I didn't take it as personal, that's why I was asking.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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This is how Pum rolls|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
If you've ever run with my crew you'd know we understand the concept of steamrolling.
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Without a doubt Pum is one of the better kins in the game, I would take his word as gospel.
I never questioned how anyone "rolls" I merely stated that I understood steamrolling.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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There's no reason other than concept to take Flight on any character, regardless of powersets, unless you make one of those oddball builds, like the Blaster that's got softcapped ranged defense and hovers above the mob. On its own, Flight is just too damn slow and clunky, and even with stacked Siphon Speed, it doesn't get much better. The run speed cap is higher than the fly speed cap, and you'll hit the run speed cap with two applications of Siphon Speed. Add in the fact that the way to best leverage a Fire/Kin's potential is to be in the middle of the mob and things start to favor SS and SJ a lot more (CJ as well, for the built-in immob protection.
I'll admit that I have Fly on three characters - one was my first character and first 50 and I have no intention of doing a respec again until I have a real reason to play him; another is my 3rd 50, a Kat/Regen Scrapper that I use exclusively for Hami raids now so having flight of some kind is useful; and the 3rd is my Earth/Storm Controller, mostly because I made his final build back when I thought Fly was a good travel power and don't play him enough to justify re-building. The rest of my characters have either SS, SJ, or a combination of the two (SS and CJ, more often than not), while my Warshade has SS and CJ for in-combat mobility and teleport for out-of-combat travel.
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Barring something going horribly wrong, a good player using a good build should rarely die. Only enemy type that gives any of my characters issues hitting is the Cimerorans, and that's nothing Aim/BU or a few yellows (or team buffs/debuffs) can't fix.
| I agree with you and actually will argue that having leadership, particularly tactics, is by far a much better option if you're teaming. I've seen so many farm builds with tough/weave bite the dust on TFs that it isn't even funny. How do they die? Cascading defense failure + inability to hit their heal. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I disagree -- Fly and Super Speed are my two default travel powers. I go with SS if the stealth is useful or in some other situations, but Fly is my most often used travel power, especially with Blasters, Controllers and Defenders. I mostly limit Super Jump to melee-type characters who already have a lot of defense. There are a lot of advantages to Fly. Speed is not the only consideration, and Fly is fast enough, especially in difficult terrain that slows down SS and SJ. Not all of us are concerned with getting there first. As long as I can get there in a reasonable amount of time, it is fast enough. One reason I like Fly so much is that I find Air Superiority so useful on many characters, including most of my Controllers.|
Originally Posted by macskull
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There's no reason other than concept to take Flight on any character, regardless of powersets, unless you make one of those oddball builds, like the Blaster that's got softcapped ranged defense and hovers above the mob. On its own, Flight is just too damn slow and clunky, and even with stacked Siphon Speed, it doesn't get much better. The run speed cap is higher than the fly speed cap, and you'll hit the run speed cap with two applications of Siphon Speed. Add in the fact that the way to best leverage a Fire/Kin's potential is to be in the middle of the mob and things start to favor SS and SJ a lot more (CJ as well, for the built-in immob protection. I'll admit that I have Fly on three characters - one was my first character and first 50 and I have no intention of doing a respec again until I have a real reason to play him; another is my 3rd 50, a Kat/Regen Scrapper that I use exclusively for Hami raids now so having flight of some kind is useful; and the 3rd is my Earth/Storm Controller, mostly because I made his final build back when I thought Fly was a good travel power and don't play him enough to justify re-building. The rest of my characters have either SS, SJ, or a combination of the two (SS and CJ, more often than not), while my Warshade has SS and CJ for in-combat mobility and teleport for out-of-combat travel. Barring something going horribly wrong, a good player using a good build should rarely die. Only enemy type that gives any of my characters issues hitting is the Cimerorans, and that's nothing Aim/BU or a few yellows (or team buffs/debuffs) can't fix. |
For example, I much prefer to have Fly for those open air missions where you have to search for someone or something . . . floating overhead while looking is far safer than running around, even with Super Speed's stealth. And Super Jump is nearly worthless in this situation -- a great way to get squishier characters killed.
Fly is a great escape power . . . go straight up. Fly works pretty well in caves and indoors, where Super Jump is mostly worthless. Fly is easy: set it and forget it for a few seconds. And Fly (or Teleport) is almost mandatory in the Shadow Shard. Sure, you can fill in with the Raptor pack, but Fly is faster and doesn't wear out at inconvenient times. I take Fly not for "concept," but because I like it.
It is kind of funny . . . I have version of the two of your characters that you mention have Fly. Both of mine have Super Speed. For my */Storm controllers, I usually take Super Speed to combine stealth with Steamy Mist, plus it is very useful with Hurricane.
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I think most Controllers, Defenders and Blasters can get a serious advantage from removing themselves from all melee and most aoe typed damage. In fact, I'd suggest it's a rare Controller, Defender or Blaster that can't derive a strong benefit from that movement option.
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Originally Posted by macskull
There's no reason other than concept to take Flight on any character, regardless of powersets, unless you make one of those oddball builds, like the Blaster that's got softcapped ranged defense and hovers above the mob.
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But you can buy raptor pack anytime you want, instead of wasting power pick and maybe few extra slots to make fly workable.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
I think most Controllers, Defenders and Blasters can get a serious advantage from removing themselves from all melee and most aoe typed damage. In fact, I'd suggest it's a rare Controller, Defender or Blaster that can't derive a strong benefit from that movement option.
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Man, I don't even know where to begin.
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Originally Posted by Harkness
I think most Controllers, Defenders and Blasters can get a serious advantage from removing themselves from all melee and most aoe typed damage. In fact, I'd suggest it's a rare Controller, Defender or Blaster that can't derive a strong benefit from that movement option.
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Just curious, but in a bit over 50 fire/kin posts I have yet to see one build using flight. I've seen a couple with both superspeed and super jump, but none with fly. Is there some reason it is avoided?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.