Consider changing some of the individual buffs
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-11 14:53 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Problem: There are people who do not like certain buffs. AoE buffs would cause the forums to explode.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
This has been bought up quite a bit, it's a good idea but don't expect to see it anytime soon. Although as vega noted it would really need to be accompanied by a reject/cancel buff mechanism for those whose dislike certain buffs (mostly speed boost and fire shields for performance reasons).
Still not really a good idea. Not only are these powers based upon being ally-only, single target buffs, the following would all be problems that would need to be addressed if this was done:
1) Right now, the buffs cannot affect the caster. If they were made PBAoE, they would be able to. This would allow, for instance, a FF/ Defender to pretty much soft-cap their own Defense, in addition to the rest of the team, or at least pretty close to it. If this was done for Empathy Defenders, you don't even want to know what it would allow them to do.
2) Endurance. Right now, the bubbles are fairly expensive, but worth it. However, built into that cost is the fact that you're recharging endurance as you cast. If it was made into a PBAoE, capable of hitting all 8 people on the team, the endurance cost should also be multiplied. 7.8 endurance * 8 = 62.4 Endurance. So, basically, after casting Deflection Shield, you wouldn't have enough endurance to then cast Insulation Shield. CAsting both would cost 124.8 Endurance.
3) Some people don't want the buffs. As mentioned above, some people don't like getting certain buffs. Things like Speed Boost can mess with some people, and their ability to maneuver. As a single-target effect, you can easily skip over these people. As a PBAoE, if you're in combat and reapply it, you might not be able to avoid these people.
So yeah, very unlikely to happen, I'd guess.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Buffing all the pets and the team is a PitTs but anyway if it's too bad to buff the pets altogether maybe they can fix it so that you could atleast buff them tier by tier.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Not that I support the idea, but I seem to recall there is a "does not affect caster" flag. Uh... I think maybe Supremacy has it.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
1) Right now, the buffs cannot affect the caster. If they were made PBAoE, they would be able to. This would allow, for instance, a FF/ Defender to pretty much soft-cap their own Defense, in addition to the rest of the team, or at least pretty close to it. If this was done for Empathy Defenders, you don't even want to know what it would allow them to do.
|
Quote:
| 3) Some people don't want the buffs. As mentioned above, some people don't like getting certain buffs. Things like Speed Boost can mess with some people, and their ability to maneuver. As a single-target effect, you can easily skip over these people. As a PBAoE, if you're in combat and reapply it, you might not be able to avoid these people. |
I'm also not particularly interested in logging into a game where every newbie starts spamming "[x buff] IN 30 SECONDS, GATHER ON ME" "...20 SECONDS..." "5 SECONDS" "4 AND A HALF SECONDS", bad Radiation Emission players already burn me out on that notion. And what about late-comers or those that miss out because they're the one dingus out of range of the rest of the team? Suddenly your buffs that are click AoEs either cost prohibitive amounts of endurance to waste on a single person or have a recharge timer similar to AM, IR, or any other similar buffs. And if they're turned into clones of AM's functionality...are they going to suffer the same penalties to strength?
As for making them effectively into toggles...the game doesn't have a function like that, as far as I know. Toggles are always single target, whether that's on a foe, yourself, or an ally; that is, there is no "multiple lock on" function, at least in the existing system again, as far as I know. And I preface "existing" with the Standard Code Rant. Sure, you could make every buff into Maneuvers but I think that would fall pretty heavily into the Cottage Rule as well.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
I enjoy single target Speed Boost like I enjoy single target Blaze. I'd rather they stay single target.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
I would hate this, buffing on the fly is far more preferable than gathering, to say nothing of significantly safer when say bubbling a tank who has the attention of an AV.
|
Originally Posted by NightSable
All shield placement buffs (sonic, force field, thermal, cold) could be changed to a single click PBAoe buff (much like Gather for RA or AM) that runs on an equivalent timer with no ability to recharge (stack buffs).
|
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
Better example: Shield / Grant Defense
|
Originally Posted by LostHalo
Quote:
|
Quote:
I loathe the Ice Shields.
Originally Posted by Vega
Problem: There are people who do not like certain buffs. AoE buffs would cause the forums to explode.
No thanks. Keep them single-target.
I tend to like fighting in style. I spend a lot of my Infamy/Influence income on costumes. It defeats the purpose when I look like a giant ice cube like every other person on the team.
I hate single-target shields. It takes sooooo long to buff up a team, and I have to recast them every 3-4 minutes. It's even more complication/annoyance when I have to upkeep other powers like Frostwork or Forge. I usually just end up recasting them during battles which is boring. It works on my Ice/Cold Controller because all her stuff is long recharge and after I do her basic volley I can just sit back and buff. But that's no fun.
I'd much rather have powers like World of Pain and Mind Link that just hit everyone and are done with it. I would love for the single-target buffs to have a much longer duration, or be AoE. But I also know the reasons and logic for not changing those things. For now, I just find those powers to be so dull, and I don't really enjoy playing the sets. Some people might, so I'll leave them to it. Until something changes, I won't be rolling any FF, Thermal, Cold, or Sonic toons. But I can get along without having those.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
I will never understand why its fun to target a Tsoo ink man and press the "5" key but its unfun to target ally blaster Betty Sizzle and press the "7" key. do you just not like the animations for buffing? I give out Speed Boost sometimes just to enjoy the range gut punch to an ally (and I like the spinny FX too).
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I hate single-target shields. It takes sooooo long to buff up a team, and I have to recast them every 3-4 minutes. It's even more complication/annoyance when I have to upkeep other powers like Frostwork or Forge. I usually just end up recasting them during battles which is boring. It works on my Ice/Cold Controller because all her stuff is long recharge and after I do her basic volley I can just sit back and buff. But that's no fun.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Cause the Tsoo Ink Man doesn't spam the chat box every 2 minutes with "shoot me plz!!11!"
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I will never understand why its fun to target a Tsoo ink man and press the "5" key but its unfun to target ally blaster Betty Sizzle and press the "7" key. do you just not like the animations for buffing? I give out Speed Boost sometimes just to enjoy the range gut punch to an ally (and I like the spinny FX too).
Quote:
It's a good question, and one I've struggled to answer myself. After all, I don't like casting shields but I don't mind healing people. I hate resummoning Voltiac Sentinel every 90 seconds, but doesn't bother me to recast Mind Link.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I will never understand why its fun to target a Tsoo ink man and press the "5" key but its unfun to target ally blaster Betty Sizzle and press the "7" key. do you just not like the animations for buffing? I give out Speed Boost sometimes just to enjoy the range gut punch to an ally (and I like the spinny FX too).
|
Maybe I just hate casting powers to keep them going just because I feel like I have to. I'd much rather just cast them when it's appropriate to use them. Then again, that doesn't explain Mind Link. Or Hasten and Active Defense and Rage that I run all the time. Though I hate Rage for other reasons.
Maybe it's that I hate dropping everything to rebuff people. But that doesn't explain healing. In fact, that has to happen more frequently with healing than with buffs.
It could be that I hate watching timers and having to think out how long I have before I have to reapply. And watching things start to blink and call me into action sucks.
Maybe it's that I like to see immediate results. That again doesn't explain Mind Link. And also doesn't explain debuffs. You can't immediately see the effects of a -DEF power.
Could be that I hate the long amount of time it takes. Compared to something like a quick Mind Link, bubbling an entire team and keeping Frostwork or Forge up on 2-4 people is very time consuming.
May also be that I like to use things that feel like they need to be used at the time. When I bubble it's just 6, 7, click, 6, 7, click, 6, 7, click... It's more fun to click around and cast the heal that seems appropriate, and put the debuff on the enemy I think needs it. But I also have toons with fluid DPS chains that I don't deviate from, and they don't bore me.
Could be that I just dislike the CONCEPT of the powers. Like maybe in my head I believe that buffs should cast quickly and last a long time, and since they don't, it bites at my mind and makes me hate the powers.
Possibly the answer is that rebuffing and resummoning pets feels like busy work. I really hate having to resummon a pet every 90 seconds. With so many other pets being infinite duration, it just bothers me that I have to keep watching my icons and make another one, when really I feel like it just shouldn't be necessary.
To answer your question, I have no idea why shield powers bug me when most other things don't. It could be some, or all, or a combination of those above things. It could also be some extra thing I didn't think of. I can't justify it or explain it. It just is how it is. Just as it's hard to explain why you like a particular style of music. It just sounds good... and you like it. Or why green is your favorite color. It's difficult to put into words.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
So... do so?|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Maybe I just hate casting powers to keep them going just because I feel like I have to. I'd much rather just cast them when it's appropriate to use them.
|
If I'm in combat on a buffer, the shields are dropping, melee's doing its thing and range/control isn't getting a lot of attention, I only worry about hitting melee with shields, and double checking on any mez protection buffs. Top them off later. Worry about "even" buffs when everyone has a chunk of downtime.
I have a reasonable stable of buffers (earth/ff, sonic/sonic, ill/sonic, several thermals, etc.) and I've just never seen buffing as a chore. I might miss out on attacking one group... oh well. (Though I usually have some AOE to drop on them anyway.) Maybe it's from having binds - select, left arrow for whatever the first shield is, right arrow for the other, so it's a very swift process.
I know it doesn't answer some of your other comments. That one just stood out for me.
Quote:
What about group fly?
|
Originally Posted by LostHalo
As for making them effectively into toggles...the game doesn't have a function like that, as far as I know. Toggles are always single target, whether that's on a foe, yourself, or an ally; that is, there is no "multiple lock on" function, at least in the existing system again, as far as I know. And I preface "existing" with the Standard Code Rant. Sure, you could make every buff into Maneuvers but I think that would fall pretty heavily into the Cottage Rule as well. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
 |
Quote:
That's not really what I'm talking about. You said right there that if shields are dropping, you rebuff... That's what I mean. I'm not casting a bubble because now seems like a good situation for a bubble. I'm casting it because the previous one is wearing off. The "good situation" to have a bubble in is all the time.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So... do so?
If I'm in combat on a buffer, the shields are dropping, melee's doing its thing and range/control isn't getting a lot of attention, I only worry about hitting melee with shields, and double checking on any mez protection buffs. |
With something like Dull Pain, I can leverage my other powers and inspirations and decide if it's worth it. If Forge is up I can consider my targets and cast it on someone I deem worthy. If someone needs healing I can pick between my single target or AoE, and sometimes even "the big heal" if I need to. I can't do that with shields, because the appropriate time to use a shield is all the time, when it starts to wear off. I don't get to say "This particular situation calls for a bubble on the Tank!" I don't decide when to use a shield, the timer does.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
That's kind of a selfish attitude for a buffing character to have, especially if that character is a defender, whose PRIMARY is the set with the buffs in it. A controller can have other things more important to do, such as using their primary. If you choose Force Field on a defender, you accept that you will spend a lot of your time buffing. Same with Kinetics, Sonic, and Cold. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
That's not really what I'm talking about. You said right there that if shields are dropping, you rebuff... That's what I mean. I'm not casting a bubble because now seems like a good situation for a bubble. I'm casting it because the previous one is wearing off. The "good situation" to have a bubble in is all the time.
With something like Dull Pain, I can leverage my other powers and inspirations and decide if it's worth it. If Forge is up I can consider my targets and cast it on someone I deem worthy. If someone needs healing I can pick between my single target or AoE, and sometimes even "the big heal" if I need to. I can't do that with shields, because the appropriate time to use a shield is all the time, when it starts to wear off. I don't get to say "This particular situation calls for a bubble on the Tank!" I don't decide when to use a shield, the timer does. |
If you don't want to buff people, don't play those sets and you have no worries about a timer dictating your actions. It really is that simple, if you don't like it, don't play it.
I don't like spending my time buffing people, so I don't play those sets, it's worked out pretty good for me so far.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Group Fly is identical to other AoE buff toggles. You don't select a person, click the toggle, then select a second person and somehow click the toggle on for them, too.|
Quote:
|
And specifically, the "target" of AoE buffs like these is actually yourself.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Quote:
Actually... I pretty much DON'T play those sets. My post was saying that I sort of half-agree with the OP. It is kind of annoying... but I'm not going to rally for a change because I know the counterarguments to those changes and think they hold at least some weight. I'm not here saying "I play these sets; I hate them; change it," I'm more saying "I don't play these sets; I might if stuff changed, but meh." In fact I tried to make sure I conveyed a neutral tone that said neither "CHANGE NAO," nor "CHANGE NEVAH," to avoid comments like this one! |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's kind of a selfish attitude for a buffing character to have, especially if that character is a defender, whose PRIMARY is the set with the buffs in it. A controller can have other things more important to do, such as using their primary. If you choose Force Field on a defender, you accept that you will spend a lot of your time buffing. Same with Kinetics, Sonic, and Cold.
If you don't want to buff people, don't play those sets and you have no worries about a timer dictating your actions. It really is that simple, if you don't like it, don't play it. I don't like spending my time buffing people, so I don't play those sets, it's worked out pretty good for me so far. |
I don't think it's a selfish outlook, either. It's not like I DON'T do my job. I have a 40 Thermal I mostly duoed, where the buffing is way more tolerable. I like to think I'm a GOOD Thermal. I buff everyone with shields, I rotate Forge, I debuff baddies and top people off with heals. Sometimes this comes at the expense of my own attacks, because I prioritize keeping other people alive. But my point is, I don't find that fun, so I play other toons instead. If I DO play that toon, I do it to the best of my ability; I just don't enjoy it. If that's selfishness... I'm baffled.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Quote:
Playing Ice/Thermal, some bolt brain asked me why I was even there on an ITF if I was only going to buff the people who took damage. Of course, he also threatened to kick a friend of mine for not playing the way he liked... even though he didn't have the star.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If I'm in combat on a buffer, the shields are dropping, melee's doing its thing and range/control isn't getting a lot of attention, I only worry about hitting melee with shields, and double checking on any mez protection buffs. Top them off later. Worry about "even" buffs when everyone has a chunk of downtime.
|
I'm curious since the OP mentioned Mastermind's way of equipping henchmen, why that wasn't suggested? I mean, it would fix the "gather for..." annoyance, it wouldn't affect the caster, and the costs / recharge could be some reasonable in between (like say the cost of hitting 3 or 4 allies).
I don't really care for either idea, but that sounds better than PBAoEs.
I'd really just rather see the duration on ST buffs increased. It might mean some counter measures, like more buffs only work on teammates than do now, and stopping door stacking. I would take such set backs to only have to buff at the beginning of a mission.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Quote:
I know exactly what it would allow them to do |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If this was done for Empathy Defenders, you don't even want to know what it would allow them to do.
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
I choose this one. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
It could be that I hate watching timers and having to think out how long I have before I have to reapply. And watching things start to blink and call me into action sucks.
|
Mainly because that is probably the defining characteristic of these powers. It is the reason I find them fun, chasing the clock, keeping the buffs going, reapplying them between blasts (or controls). Since that aspect is so prevalent and often complained about (isn't that the basic complaint in the OP?), it would makes sense that this is why people either like or dislike using these powers.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Personally I wouldn't put dull pain in this at all any more than "I can decide if I want to use sprint or not." It's just not the same - it's purely you, you can only use it on one person, ever. Now, if you wanted to say Frostwork - at least it's a buff for someone else. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
That's not really what I'm talking about. You said right there that if shields are dropping, you rebuff... That's what I mean. I'm not casting a bubble because now seems like a good situation for a bubble. I'm casting it because the previous one is wearing off. The "good situation" to have a bubble in is all the time.
With something like Dull Pain, I can leverage my other powers and inspirations and decide if it's worth it. If Forge is up I can consider my targets and cast it on someone I deem worthy. If someone needs healing I can pick between my single target or AoE, and sometimes even "the big heal" if I need to. I can't do that with shields, because the appropriate time to use a shield is all the time, when it starts to wear off. I don't get to say "This particular situation calls for a bubble on the Tank!" I don't decide when to use a shield, the timer does. |
Now, as far as "the perfect time to have a shield on is all the time," I'd say "not quite." Part of why you mention liking Forge is prioritization, who needs the extra damage. I'd assume you try to keep it on specific people. Why can't you do that with FF (or sonic?) You don't (I'd assume) mind running Maneuvers on your VEAT - well, FF and Sonic do have an "in it all the time" bubble, that's perfectly fine for those hanging back. It's fewer (to use part of your gist) timers to chase, it lessens what some see as the 'burden' of bubbling.
Now, obviously this doesn't affect cold or thermal. Yet even there you have some prioritization - both of team and powers - you can do. It's longer term (*usually* the length of a mission,) but you can do it. Fire shield, with its smash/lethal resist, is generally a good one to have on regardless, but Plasma (fire/energy/negative?) See if you really need it for the mission. If not, you've just cut down what you "need" to do. (Cold, I'll say, doesn't have QUITE that much of a luxury, as Glacial = ranged/AOE defense, versus thermal's resists. Though you can still decide how much it's needed versus the other things your powers are doing, and for mob capabilities.)
It's also one of the things (since we're talking chasing timers) that bugs me with PBAOE buffs, really, such as the RAs or AM. I *don't* tell people to gather - I find it disruptive, and usually the team's close enough I can hit everyone. But if I *miss* someone... I'm watching the timer. I can't spot-Accelerate Metabolism them - they're SOL until that timer says I can do it again. Single target, I can wait, or catch someone after (or make sure they're getting the buff as they run in) - plus the timers on the powers are typically short.
Quote:
See, that's all nice and dandy in a perfect world.
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Now, as far as "the perfect time to have a shield on is all the time," I'd say "not quite." Part of why you mention liking Forge is prioritization, who needs the extra damage. I'd assume you try to keep it on specific people. Why can't you do that with FF (or sonic?) You don't (I'd assume) mind running Maneuvers on your VEAT - well, FF and Sonic do have an "in it all the time" bubble, that's perfectly fine for those hanging back. It's fewer (to use part of your gist) timers to chase, it lessens what some see as the 'burden' of bubbling.
But it gets rather frustrating when people start telling you to do otherwise; and they WILL tell you to do otherwise.
To me, it's more of a "shield them so they shut up" instead of a "shield them so the team can survive".
If I have a PBAoE toggle on Auto Execution, or I have an AoE toggle buff, I don't need to worry about people constantly turning me to keep it on. But gawd forbid if I decide that the blaster hanging in my AoE bubble and barely getting touched doesn't get shielded to defense cap.
And I know I'm exaggerating. I have a biased opinion. I just don't like buff ATs at all. I have one Fire/Cold corrupter and I always get crap from team because I made her fully offensive, and hence she doesn't have the Ice Shields. But to honest, you'd be surprised how many times people actually DO tell you how to play your character. And I'm not talking about exceptional cases when the team is failing and people tell each other what to do so they can cooperate better.
MM's got the ability to upgrade all their pets now with the one click (two for the 2nd upgrade)which is awesome. I remember my bots/ff and I was buffing my bots, making me a buffbot in two ways (upgrades and shields), and hating it. Eventually, I came to the light and only buffed assault bot with shields and the spent long periods of time setting up to get the other upgraded. So a belated thank you to the devs for this improvement.
So here is a suggestion... (/e puts flame-retardant suit on and has three fire extinguishers aimed at self)
Based on the above dev behavior, consider some changes to some of the individual buffs (not all of them). All shield placement buffs (sonic, force field, thermal, cold) could be changed to a single click PBAoe buff (much like Gather for RA or AM) that runs on an equivalent timer with no ability to recharge (stack buffs). Set a dispersion bubble like graphic, or some variant and have a click that can go off every time the power runs out. This means the entire team can gather quickly for shields, and then move enabling the support character to do other more useful things and likely would encourage people playing those ATs more (how many /sonic and /force field does anyone see these days). Increased the end use of the power some, but that really is not a functional issue in game play.
Also, speed boost and increase density should function the same way for kins.
Individual healing powers, forge, hoarfrost, etc... would obviously should not be changed as they are meant for one individual (maybe two) at a given time, and would be too uber to upgrade to a PBAoe team buff. The other buffs I mentioned before however would not overpower anyone, and allow players to actually play more.